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[SCA-JML] Re: karaginu, other pretty toys

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  • Ogami Itto
    ... court ... (as the ... Okay, so to avoid problems, how do I deal with making myself a kariginu? Would this be something that I should even bother trying to
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 6, 2000
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      > Avoid Noh costume; in many cases, the terms used are the same for
      court
      > clothing with the same name, but the garments are in fact different
      (as the
      > wearing of some items was proscribed by those not entitled to do so).

      Okay, so to avoid problems, how do I deal with making myself a
      kariginu? Would this be something that I should even bother trying to
      make, if I am trying to do a mid-ranked samurai? Oh, and I did mispell
      that in the earlier post. Sorry.

      > Second -- the karaginu is a woman's robe. Kariginu (hunting coat)= a
      man's
      > court robe. Karaginu (Chinese coat)= woman's underrobe.
      >

      > I've never seen a pre-Tokugawa nagakamishimo...


      Oops. I blew it. I'd swear that I saw something about the
      nagakamishimo dating from 1570's, but when I checked again, I couldn't
      find it. Wishful thinking, maybe? Anyway, the hakama that they showed
      were the really, really long ones that you can't actually walk in.

      > Overlapping pleats were extant but not the norm in the 1500s.
      >

      > Yaohan, in Chicago. Also perhaps your local Oriental grociery store.
      You
      > can usually find bowls and plates at least. The bowls are usually
      melamine
      > (a kind of plastic) instead of lacquered wood, but given the cost of
      the
      > real puppy, it's a deal. <G>

      Oh, yeah, you can say _that_ again. I saw some actual, modern pieces
      (non-antique) going for 30,000+ yen. Ouch! Does Yaohan have a web
      site, or do I have to truck my butt on down to Chicago? It's kind of a
      long drive... And while I'm thinking of it, any good books on the
      practical side of laquerware, as opposed to the artistic garbage that
      is barely functional?

      Sorry to use this forum for semi-private messages... <grin>
      Ogami Itto
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Sorry for the delay. Sigh... You probably don t need a kariginu. For samurai, that s the *most* formal of formal wear, literally worn at court where
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 16, 2000
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        Ogami Itto wrote:

        > Okay, so to avoid problems, how do I deal with making myself a
        > kariginu? Would this be something that I should even bother trying to
        > make, if I am trying to do a mid-ranked samurai? Oh, and I did mispell
        > that in the earlier post. Sorry.

        Sorry for the delay. Sigh...

        You probably don't need a kariginu. For samurai, that's the *most* formal
        of formal wear, literally worn at court where royalty is around. In keeping
        with Japanese esthetics, I wouldn't recommend a kariginu for anyone who's
        not a brass hat of some sort, and principality/kingdom officer, or a peer.

        Midrank's formal would be a hitatare/daimon (late period) or a suikan
        (earlier period).

        Effingham
      • Ogami Itto
        ... to ... formal ... keeping ... who s ... peer. ... This raises a few other questions in turn. First, if I were to make an appearance in a royal court, for
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 18, 2000
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          >
          > > Okay, so to avoid problems, how do I deal with making myself a
          > > kariginu? Would this be something that I should even bother trying
          to
          > > make, if I am trying to do a mid-ranked samurai?

          > You probably don't need a kariginu. For samurai, that's the *most*
          formal
          > of formal wear, literally worn at court where royalty is around. In
          keeping
          > with Japanese esthetics, I wouldn't recommend a kariginu for anyone
          who's
          > not a brass hat of some sort, and principality/kingdom officer, or a
          peer.
          >
          > Midrank's formal would be a hitatare/daimon (late period) or a suikan
          > (earlier period).
          >

          This raises a few other questions in turn. First, if I were to
          make an appearance in a royal court, for instance, would a kariginu be
          a good thing or a bad thing? (By "appearance", I mean that I was
          actually asked to participate, either to recieve an award or to be part
          of the royal groupies.) In some of the notes in my book about the
          Tokugawa museum, it notes that in the Edo peiod, hitatare and
          naga-kamishimo were considered formal wear for the low and midrank
          samurai, while the kariginu was essentially only for those holding rank
          in the imperial court. Obviously, a naga-kamishimo is right out of the
          question. But, on the other hand, I seem to recall that hitatare was
          considered sort of a day-to-day item of clothing for mid-high level
          samurai.
          Second, this particular book states quite plainly that certain
          colors, weaves, cuts of fabric, paterns, garments, etc. ad naseum, were
          reserved for certain ranks. Did this hold true in the Azouchi
          (spelling?) and Momoyama periods as well?
          Domo arigato
          guzaimasu,
          Ogami Itto
        • Kass McGann
          Mind if I jump in here, Effy-chan? Ogami-dono, If I may help to answer your questions about the kariginu... ... formal ... keeping ... who s ... peer. ... This
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 18, 2000
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            Mind if I jump in here, Effy-chan?

            Ogami-dono,

            If I may help to answer your questions about the kariginu...

            > You probably don't need a kariginu. For samurai, that's the *most*
            formal
            > of formal wear, literally worn at court where royalty is around. In
            keeping
            > with Japanese esthetics, I wouldn't recommend a kariginu for anyone
            who's
            > not a brass hat of some sort, and principality/kingdom officer, or a
            peer.
            >
            > Midrank's formal would be a hitatare/daimon (late period) or a suikan
            > (earlier period).

            This raises a few other questions in turn. First, if I were to
            make an appearance in a royal court, for instance, would a kariginu be
            a good thing or a bad thing? (By "appearance", I mean that I was
            actually asked to participate, either to recieve an award or to be part
            of the royal groupies.) In some of the notes in my book about the
            Tokugawa museum, it notes that in the Edo peiod, hitatare and
            naga-kamishimo were considered formal wear for the low and midrank
            samurai, while the kariginu was essentially only for those holding rank
            in the imperial court. Obviously, a naga-kamishimo is right out of the
            question. But, on the other hand, I seem to recall that hitatare was
            considered sort of a day-to-day item of clothing for mid-high level
            samurai.
            >>>>
            If I were you, I would have a kariginu to wear for appearances in court. I
            just made one for my Master for him to wear when he attends Their Majesties.
            Of course it matters what period you are protraying and what rank you hold.
            >>>>
            Second, this particular book states quite plainly that certain
            colors, weaves, cuts of fabric, paterns, garments, etc. ad naseum, were
            reserved for certain ranks. Did this hold true in the Azouchi
            (spelling?) and Momoyama periods as well?
            >>>>
            Every period had it's own sumptuary laws, including Azuchi and Momoyama. I
            am at a loss, however, to tell you exactly what they are.

            Respectfully,
            Fujiwara no Aoi
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... Go-enryounaku, ne! ... Ummm... complicated? The nice thing about a large chunk of Azuchi-Momoyama is that there was a rather chaotic social order in
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 18, 2000
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              Kass McGann wrote:

              > Mind if I jump in here, Effy-chan?
              >

              Go-enryounaku, ne!

              >
              > Every period had it's own sumptuary laws, including Azuchi and Momoyama. I
              > am at a loss, however, to tell you exactly what they are.

              Ummm... complicated? <G> The nice thing about a large chunk of Azuchi-Momoyama
              is that there was a rather chaotic social order in place. Until around 1585,
              you could pretty much "roll on your charisma" as they say out West.


              Effingham
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