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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Correspondence

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  • Jennifer Kobayashi
    ... Agreed! Winging words sending Intimate sorrows and joys Fragile as the dawn. My mind rides the brushstroked words to thoughts of strangers and friends. Ki
    Message 1 of 21 , Aug 3, 2004
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      --- Maria <tace@...> wrote:

      > makiwara_no_yetsuko wrote:
      >
      > > You say that like it's a BAD thing. ;->
      > >
      > > Crisp folds and brushstrokes,
      > > Perhaps a whiff of incense,
      > > Delight the senses
      > > Eager fingers taste with joy
      > > The news of faraway friends.
      > >
      > Really! Correspondence is a delight!
      >
      > Mulberry paper
      > Entwined around a blossom
      > Sweetly scented words
      > Composed in charming sequence.
      > Ah! My heart will break with joy!
      >
      > From my home overlooking the Great River,
      >
      > --Ki no Torahime
      >
      Agreed!

      Winging words sending
      Intimate sorrows and joys
      Fragile as the dawn.
      My mind rides the brushstroked words
      to thoughts of strangers and friends.

      Ki no Izumi, called Kobayashi

      =====
      - Jennifer



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    • ekoogler1@comcast.net
      The poems you all write are so melodious and invocative of all sorts of wonderful imagery. I envy you the ability to write such beautiful compositions. I can
      Message 2 of 21 , Aug 3, 2004
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        The poems you all write are so melodious and invocative of all sorts of wonderful imagery. I envy you the ability to write such beautiful compositions. I can write prose, but the poetic form, in any language, has always eluded me. But I do enjoy reading what others write.

        Kiri






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • makiwara_no_yetsuko
        THIS is why I love this group! Makiwara
        Message 3 of 21 , Aug 3, 2004
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          THIS is why I love this group!

          Makiwara


          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Kobayashi <jhkob@y...> wrote:
          >
          > --- Maria <tace@m...> wrote:
          > > Really! Correspondence is a delight!
          > >
          > > Mulberry paper
          > > Entwined around a blossom
          > > Sweetly scented words
          > > Composed in charming sequence.
          > > Ah! My heart will break with joy!
          > >
          > > From my home overlooking the Great River,
          > >
          > > --Ki no Torahime
          > >
          > Agreed!
          >
          > Winging words sending
          > Intimate sorrows and joys
          > Fragile as the dawn.
          > My mind rides the brushstroked words
          > to thoughts of strangers and friends.
          >
          > Ki no Izumi, called Kobayashi
          >
          > =====
          > - Jennifer
          >
          >
          >
          > _______________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now.
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        • makiwara_no_yetsuko
          ... eluded me. But I do enjoy reading what others write. ... You honor us with your praise. I find rhymed, metric poetry MUCH harder (the mere concept of the
          Message 4 of 21 , Aug 3, 2004
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, ekoogler1@c... wrote:
            > I can write prose, but the poetic form, in any language, has always
            eluded me. But I do enjoy reading what others write.
            >
            > Kiri

            You honor us with your praise. I find rhymed, metric poetry MUCH
            harder (the mere concept of the sestina makes my hair hurt), but
            there's something about distilling a thought or image down to thirty-
            one syllables (or seventeen for the haiku fans) that really appeals
            to me. Yes, it takes practice, but that practice is habit forming.
            And fun.

            Makiwara
          • Date Saburou Yukiie
            Pennsic looming now samurai donning armor with quiet repose... all shall serve best their master who lose life that they may serve pen strokes to the wife wet
            Message 5 of 21 , Aug 3, 2004
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              Pennsic looming now
              samurai donning armor
              with quiet repose...
              all shall serve best their master
              who lose life that they may serve

              pen strokes to the wife
              wet black marks on white paper
              brushing true feelings
              take care of the family
              and the children of my loins

              the drums start beating
              to gather all around them
              with their gear in hand
              soon we line in rank and file
              three sandals march shall we trod

              the fires at night burn
              with the fervor of demons
              summoning combat
              as morning glows we shall rise
              and take in hand sharpened tools

              arrows fly at dawn
              lodging in the chests of brave
              soldiers defiant
              yet standing to face the gods
              honorably standing ground



              Date Saburou Yukiie
              Yama Kaminari Ryu
              Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave




              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Kobayashi <jhkob@y...> wrote:
              >
              > --- Maria <tace@m...> wrote:
              >
              > > makiwara_no_yetsuko wrote:
              > >
              > > > You say that like it's a BAD thing. ;->
              > > >
              > > > Crisp folds and brushstrokes,
              > > > Perhaps a whiff of incense,
              > > > Delight the senses
              > > > Eager fingers taste with joy
              > > > The news of faraway friends.
              > > >
              > > Really! Correspondence is a delight!
              > >
              > > Mulberry paper
              > > Entwined around a blossom
              > > Sweetly scented words
              > > Composed in charming sequence.
              > > Ah! My heart will break with joy!
              > >
              > > From my home overlooking the Great River,
              > >
              > > --Ki no Torahime
              > >
              > Agreed!
              >
              > Winging words sending
              > Intimate sorrows and joys
              > Fragile as the dawn.
              > My mind rides the brushstroked words
              > to thoughts of strangers and friends.
              >
              > Ki no Izumi, called Kobayashi
              >
              > =====
              > - Jennifer
              >
              >
              >
              > _______________________________
              > Do you Yahoo!?
              > Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now.
              > http://messenger.yahoo.com
            • Solveig
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I am not saying that classical Japanese poetry is a bad thing. I am saying that writing classical Japanese poetry
              Message 6 of 21 , Aug 3, 2004
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig! I am not saying that classical Japanese poetry is
                a bad thing. I am saying that writing classical Japanese poetry correctly
                is a HARD thing. It is HARD for modern Japanese. There is rather more to
                the sensibility of classical Japanese poetry than simply doing the 5-7-5-7-7
                thing.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                ... I think that last one should be tread but otherwise, this is great! Makiwara
                Message 7 of 21 , Aug 3, 2004
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Date Saburou Yukiie" <kabuto@c...>
                  wrote:
                  > the drums start beating
                  > to gather all around them
                  > with their gear in hand
                  > soon we line in rank and file
                  > three sandals march shall we trod

                  I think that last one should be "tread" but otherwise, this is great!

                  Makiwara
                • Jennifer Kobayashi
                  ... Absolutely! Thank you all. Ki no Izumi called Kobayashi ... ===== - Jennifer __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and
                  Message 8 of 21 , Aug 3, 2004
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                    --- makiwara_no_yetsuko
                    <makiwara_no_yetsuko@...> wrote:

                    > THIS is why I love this group!
                    >
                    > Makiwara
                    >

                    Absolutely! Thank you all.

                    Ki no Izumi called Kobayashi


                    ===========================
                    --- Date Saburou Yukiie <kabuto@...> wrote:

                    > Pennsic looming now
                    > samurai donning armor
                    > with quiet repose...
                    > all shall serve best their master
                    > who lose life that they may serve
                    >
                    > pen strokes to the wife
                    > wet black marks on white paper
                    > brushing true feelings
                    > take care of the family
                    > and the children of my loins
                    >
                    > the drums start beating
                    > to gather all around them
                    > with their gear in hand
                    > soon we line in rank and file
                    > three sandals march shall we trod
                    >
                    > the fires at night burn
                    > with the fervor of demons
                    > summoning combat
                    > as morning glows we shall rise
                    > and take in hand sharpened tools
                    >
                    > arrows fly at dawn
                    > lodging in the chests of brave
                    > soldiers defiant
                    > yet standing to face the gods
                    > honorably standing ground
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Date Saburou Yukiie
                    > Yama Kaminari Ryu
                    > Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > > makiwara_no_yetsuko wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > You say that like it's a BAD thing. ;->
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Crisp folds and brushstrokes,
                    > > > > Perhaps a whiff of incense,
                    > > > > Delight the senses
                    > > > > Eager fingers taste with joy
                    > > > > The news of faraway friends.
                    > > > >
                    > > > Really! Correspondence is a delight!
                    > > >
                    > > > Mulberry paper
                    > > > Entwined around a blossom
                    > > > Sweetly scented words
                    > > > Composed in charming sequence.
                    > > > Ah! My heart will break with joy!
                    > > >
                    > > > From my home overlooking the Great River,
                    > > >
                    > > > --Ki no Torahime
                    > > >
                    > > Agreed!
                    > >
                    > > Winging words sending
                    > > Intimate sorrows and joys
                    > > Fragile as the dawn.
                    > > My mind rides the brushstroked words
                    > > to thoughts of strangers and friends.
                    > >
                    > > Ki no Izumi, called Kobayashi
                    > >
                    > > =====
                    > > - Jennifer
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >


                    =====
                    - Jennifer



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                  • Maria
                    ... Certainly, Solveig-dono, you are correct. One of the problems that English-speaking poets face now in approaching the Tanka is that there has not been a
                    Message 9 of 21 , Aug 4, 2004
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                      Solveig wrote:

                      > Noble Cousin!
                      >
                      > Greetings from Solveig! I am not saying that classical Japanese poetry is
                      > a bad thing. I am saying that writing classical Japanese poetry correctly
                      > is a HARD thing. It is HARD for modern Japanese. There is rather more to
                      > the sensibility of classical Japanese poetry than simply doing the
                      > 5-7-5-7-7
                      > thing.


                      Certainly, Solveig-dono, you are correct.

                      One of the problems that English-speaking poets face now in approaching
                      the Tanka is that there has not been a consensus on how it _should_ be
                      written in English. While 5-7-5-7-7 is what is generally taught, there
                      is a movement to consider using less syllables. See this excellent
                      article for reference: http://www.ahapoetry.com/wildonji.htm .

                      As I've often said here: my Japanese is self-taught and half-baked.
                      However, even in my poor studies I have learned something of the
                      differences between Japanese and English. Because our languages are so
                      different, how must we approach a poetic form?

                      Certainly, we must keep in mind themes and aesthetics. However, the
                      themes and aesthetics gradually change over the years, even during the
                      Classical period. Compare the poems of the Man'yoshu to the Shin
                      Kokinshu and it is very evident. Today, in English-speaking poetic
                      circles, there are different schools of thought as to how to approach
                      the tanka. Some people go almost to the point of free-form poetry (as
                      the Japanese have, in turn, taken new values in their own approach to
                      tanka, especially in the 20th century). I personally disagree with this
                      approach, but many do not.

                      Some poets stick to the English-syllable 5-7-5-7-7 approach, regardless
                      of topic. I started out this way, as many people do. It is a way to
                      get people used to the art form, but it is not pure in the aesthetic
                      sense. Achieving that takes time and practice. I know I am not there
                      yet, although looking at my work versus my work a year ago, I think
                      perhaps I have progressed.

                      Going further, some approach English tanka in a way akin to the haiku.
                      I think this is maybe late-period thinking? The waka written in the
                      later middle ages differed a great deal from that written during the
                      Heian era in its themes.

                      Trying to use such forms as makura-katoba are difficult in English
                      because it comes over as trite and cliched. Our tradition is such that
                      we are not supposed to use a previously coined phrase from another
                      poet. Yet it was expected and admired in classical Japanese poetry. So
                      how do we adapt that into English? Do we take the Japanese phrases,
                      which may have no context in our culture? Do we use our own cultural
                      contexts? I once wrote a tanka using the phrase "wine-dark sea" as an
                      attempt at a makura-katoba
                      (http://www.shef.ac.uk/japan2001/makurakotoba.shtml) . It was forced
                      and didn't sound quite right, but it was the best thing I could come up
                      with at the time that had a cultural context and feeling that would be
                      instantly understandable.

                      We are all students here, and we are all learning. In the meantime, it
                      is refreshing to know that there are others around who are also
                      interested in this time and era, and who would take the time to attempt
                      a poem with their correspondence, just as an Heian-era lady might do.

                      From my home overlooking the Great River,

                      Ki no Torahime
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... Oh, good lord... another person who has bought into the theoretical pronunciation of early Japanese. Such transliteration is an interesting theoretical and
                      Message 10 of 21 , Aug 4, 2004
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                        Maria wrote:
                        > I once wrote a tanka using the phrase "wine-dark sea" as an
                        > attempt at a makura-katoba
                        > (http://www.shef.ac.uk/japan2001/makurakotoba.shtml) .

                        Oh, good lord... another person who has bought into the theoretical
                        pronunciation of early Japanese.

                        Such transliteration is an interesting theoretical and academic experiment, but
                        does no good in conventional publication. No Japanese doing historical
                        literature says "pi" is "day/sun" -- he says "hi."

                        I'm sorry, but things like that really annoy the hell out of me. They make it
                        difficult to be able to intelligently discuss (or quote) material, as it uses
                        something that no normal scholar even uses in normal practise.

                        (It's my argument against some "creative" translations of Kojiki and Nihongi --
                        they use the theoretical pronunciations of the early names of characters,
                        thereby assuring that most readers of the books will never be able to keep track
                        of who in their version is who to everyone else, or have a conversation about them.)

                        Other than that, it's a good website. :)

                        Effingham
                        --

                        Anthony J. Bryant
                        Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                        Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                        http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                        Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
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                      • Maria
                        ... Sorry you didn t like the website, Hiraizumi-dono. I mainly posted it because of the paragraph that explained what a makura-kotoba was (since people might
                        Message 11 of 21 , Aug 4, 2004
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                          Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                          > Maria wrote:
                          > > I once wrote a tanka using the phrase "wine-dark sea" as an
                          > > attempt at a makura-katoba
                          > > (http://www.shef.ac.uk/japan2001/makurakotoba.shtml)
                          > <http://www.shef.ac.uk/japan2001/makurakotoba.shtml%29> .
                          >
                          > Oh, good lord... another person who has bought into the theoretical
                          > pronunciation of early Japanese.
                          >
                          Sorry you didn't like the website, Hiraizumi-dono. I mainly posted it
                          because of the paragraph that explained what a makura-kotoba was (since
                          people might not understand the term, and I lack the vocabulary to
                          explain it properly).

                          As far as pronunciations, I haven't gotten that far yet. *blushes* I'm
                          still trying to conquer modern Japanese. I go by the romanji given with
                          the English translations in my poetry books so far. Figured I'd deal
                          with that other issue (Classical Japanese) when I have more experience.
                          I've tried to read some of the poetry in the original form but I'm not
                          quite at that level yet.

                          However, I guess my point was trying to adapt the concept of
                          makura-kotoba into English, and whether it could be done without
                          sounding stupid or trite (or plagiaristic) our language. It's less
                          about translation from Japanese and more about composition in English.
                          I apologize if I wasn't clear.

                          Ki no Torahime
                        • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                          ... that ... poetry. So ... [Grin] I occasionally contribute some of these on the Outlands Bardic list in response to weekly challenges on given themes. A
                          Message 12 of 21 , Aug 4, 2004
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                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Maria <tace@m...> wrote:
                            > Trying to use such forms as makura-katoba are difficult in English
                            > because it comes over as trite and cliched. Our tradition is such
                            that
                            > we are not supposed to use a previously coined phrase from another
                            > poet. Yet it was expected and admired in classical Japanese
                            poetry. So
                            > how do we adapt that into English?

                            [Grin] I occasionally contribute some of these on the Outlands Bardic
                            list in response to weekly challenges on given themes. A couple of
                            weeks ago, the challenge was to write a lament. I gave them this:

                            Waiting in the dark
                            To hear the faintest footfall -
                            But he did not come.
                            Sorrow's dew weights silken sleeves,
                            A tear for each leaden hour.

                            The wet sleeves image got "Wows" from my readers. THEY didn't think
                            it was a cliche because they didn't know it was one. English readers
                            may not recognize allusions or quotations from Japanese classics. I
                            think that the appreciation a Japanese would have of a makura-katoba
                            may be akin to an SCA audience appreciating a filk. "Ah, that's
                            familiar so it's funny!" Or sad or whatever.

                            As a non-Japanese speaker limited to reading translated works, I am
                            aware that there are nuances I am missing because there are
                            linguistic cues I am by necessity divorced from. (It bugs the hell
                            out of me, but I don't have the time or resources to try to learn to
                            read Japanese. So I stick to the syllable count as it is what gives a
                            non-rhymed, non-metric poem its structure. It's also an exercise in
                            discipline. I concentrate on trying to distill a thought or image
                            within said structure. If I can effectively use an image or allusion
                            to give the poem a Japanese flavor that a Western reader can "get"
                            without a four paragraph preface on context, I figure I've
                            succeeded.

                            > We are all students here, and we are all learning.
                            Here here.

                            Makiwara, eternal student
                          • Anthony J. Bryant
                            ... Oh, no... I like the website. It has useful material. It just has some dangerous eccentricities that can really mess people up if they don t know what
                            Message 13 of 21 , Aug 4, 2004
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                              Maria wrote:


                              >
                              > Sorry you didn't like the website, Hiraizumi-dono. I mainly posted it
                              > because of the paragraph that explained what a makura-kotoba was (since
                              > people might not understand the term, and I lack the vocabulary to
                              > explain it properly).

                              Oh, no... I like the website. It has useful material. It just has some dangerous
                              eccentricities that can really mess people up if they don't know what they're
                              doing or looking at.

                              > However, I guess my point was trying to adapt the concept of
                              > makura-kotoba into English, and whether it could be done without
                              > sounding stupid or trite (or plagiaristic) our language. It's less
                              > about translation from Japanese and more about composition in English.
                              > I apologize if I wasn't clear.

                              One of the great problems with makurakotoba and utamakura is that they require
                              an innate understanding of the literature and the culture on the part of the
                              reader -- otherwise it's like an in joke that falls flat. And reading short
                              poetry with subtitles can really be annoying. :)

                              Ultimately, makurakotoba and utamakura are cliches, or puns, or both; and while
                              we tend to deride cliches and such in English, they were the lifeblood of
                              Japanese poetry. It's a tough haul. :)

                              Here's a bit I translated for vol. 3 of "The Story of Japan" by Hiraizumi
                              Kiyoshi, on the birth of Emperor Meiji (note the footnote on the poem):

                              "Sakura Azumao, who had been praying fervently for an easy birth, was overcome
                              and wept tears of joy, and wrote the following poem:
                              'When I think deeply
                              of the prince
                              of the heir to the goddess
                              on this day of shining sun,
                              my tears flow.'
                              (FOOTNOTE: The poem includes a pun:
                              'Amaterasu hi tsugi no miko no mikoto zo to
                              fukaku omoeba namida shi nagaru.'
                              Amaterasu is the name of the sun goddess, the ancestral deity of the imperial
                              line, and here it can also mean 'shining sky.' Likewise, as the kanji 'nichi/hi'
                              (sun) is the first element in the name of Japan (nichi + hon = nihon), the
                              "Hitsugi" can either be 'the heir of the sun' or 'the heir of Japan.')"

                              All that kind of stuff is normally picked up on by the reader of Japanese
                              poetry. We have to explain it. Makes life difficult. :)

                              Effingham
                              --

                              Anthony J. Bryant
                              Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                              Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                              http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                              Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                              http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
                            • Justin Flatt
                              Greetings, friends all. I have a question! Was there a demon in japanese mythology similar to the sirens? One that lured in it s victims (not necessarily
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 7, 2004
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                                Greetings, friends all.

                                I have a question! Was there a demon in japanese
                                mythology similar to the sirens? One that lured in
                                it's victims (not necessarily sailors) with song? Any
                                information is helpful, especially a name.

                                Arigatou,

                                Hideaki



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