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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Need advice

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  • Donald Luby
    ... If there is a fully legal 16-or-thicker ga steel helmet underneath, you can cosmetically add to it however you like, though you should be careful if it
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 2, 2004
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      On Aug 2, 2004, at 11:52 PM, John wrote:

      > Tatsuzou-Dono
      > The shikoro is totally cosmetic in the helm I have been working on. I
      > have a 14 gauge solid skirt under where it will go.

      If there is a fully legal 16-or-thicker ga steel helmet underneath, you
      can cosmetically add to it however you like, though you should be
      careful if it reduces your ability to recognize good blows.

      > The leather I am thinking of using is soft enough to bounce back
      > from shots and strong enough to hold shape as long as it isnt
      > actually "folded".

      I'd be doubly careful of blow calibration in this case: if, by its
      flexing, it absorbs a lot of the blow without transferring it to the
      helmet, you could easily be ignoring good blows and not know it,
      because you'd never feel them; I used to have a similar problem with my
      first haidate design, which got me a stern talking-to by a more
      experienced fighter, back in the day.

      > Metal, if creased would have to be removed, then hammered back into
      > shape.

      I've been fighting in kabuto with 16 ga steel shikoro for almost 20
      years, and I've never had it crease (though fukigaeshi can get pretty
      well flattened). My first kabuto (which I fought in for 5 years or so)
      had a solid riveted shikoro (with purely decorative lacing), and while
      the bowl (a 16 ga spun bowl) had to be pounded out twice, the shikoro
      never got a dent. And my two suceeding kabuto, both with regular
      'floating' shikoro, have never gotten creased either.

      > Plus the big thing I am thinking about is catching a shot,
      > the sword snagging on a lame and ripping the whole thing apart.

      Again, I've never had a shikoro get ripped, though through regular wear
      and tear I do re-lace it about once every 18 months when I take it
      apart to repaint it (FYI, between regular practices and fighting
      events, I'm in armor probably about 100 times a year).

      > Are there historical examples of solid shikoro's?

      None that I'm aware of; there are chinese helmets which have things
      that are like shikoro which are solid, though.

      I think your fears about if snagging and ripping apart being the basis
      for wanting to make it 'solid' are at least groundless, and quite
      possibly just compounding the potential problem; I believe you'd be
      much better off just making a regular shikoro out of a rigid material
      than a 'solid' shikoro out of a flexible material.

      > Thanks
      > Odawara Taro Yoshinobu


      Sir Koredono
      AEthelmearc Earl Marshal
    • Scott
      ... to ... I used to wear a kabuto with metal shikkoro and I did have a problem with the lames shearing through the lacing along the front edge, but I think
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 3, 2004
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "John" <j_tygart@h...> wrote:
        > I have an idea, that I know will sound horrid, but I think it will
        > work. I am thinking of making a shikoro out of leather, no biggie
        > there, but instead of several overlapping lames, I am thinking of
        > one solid lame.
        >
        > Here is my logic, at fighter practice Sunday, i took a shot right
        to
        > my collarbone that would have hit the shikoro if I were waring a
        > kabuto. In hitting one of the lames, I could easily see it snagging
        > on one lame and ripping the whole thing apart.
        >
        > So I am thinking one solid lame, maybe tooled to look like several
        > overlapping lames, and laced like it was several lames, but it isnt.
        >
        > Is this acceptable?
        >
        > thanks in advance
        > Odawara Karo Yoshinobu

        I used to wear a kabuto with metal shikkoro and I did have a problem
        with the lames shearing through the lacing along the front edge, but
        I think that was mostly due to the fact that there were only 5 sets
        of lacing holes in it, leaving around 4 inches between the suspension
        points. I think with lacing set more closely together as it should be
        and the edges of the lacing holes smoothed out there would be no
        problem at all.

        Saito
      • raijin31
        Greetings!! I have been wearing kabuto with metal shikoro since 97. As Saito suggested, putting the lacing holes closer together do help lengthen the life of
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 3, 2004
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          Greetings!!

          I have been wearing kabuto with metal shikoro since '97. As Saito
          suggested, putting the lacing holes closer together do help lengthen
          the life of the lacing. Like Saito, the only place the lacing frayed
          or broke was in the front, but I only had that happen twice in 7
          years. The lacing that broke usually snapped after becoming frayed,
          and even after it broke, because the other lacing was so close (about
          1 1/2" to 2" apart, it was no big deal. It wasn't enough for me to
          have to stop fighting for the day, and because it was only one piece
          of lacing, it only took about 5 minutes to repair...

          Otoshi

          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <sdsweetland@c...> wrote:
          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "John" <j_tygart@h...> wrote:
          > > I have an idea, that I know will sound horrid, but I think it
          will
          > > work. I am thinking of making a shikoro out of leather, no biggie
          > > there, but instead of several overlapping lames, I am thinking of
          > > one solid lame.
          > >
          > > Here is my logic, at fighter practice Sunday, i took a shot right
          > to
          > > my collarbone that would have hit the shikoro if I were waring a
          > > kabuto. In hitting one of the lames, I could easily see it
          snagging
          > > on one lame and ripping the whole thing apart.
          > >
          > > So I am thinking one solid lame, maybe tooled to look like
          several
          > > overlapping lames, and laced like it was several lames, but it
          isnt.
          > >
          > > Is this acceptable?
          > >
          > > thanks in advance
          > > Odawara Karo Yoshinobu
          >
          > I used to wear a kabuto with metal shikkoro and I did have a
          problem
          > with the lames shearing through the lacing along the front edge,
          but
          > I think that was mostly due to the fact that there were only 5 sets
          > of lacing holes in it, leaving around 4 inches between the
          suspension
          > points. I think with lacing set more closely together as it should
          be
          > and the edges of the lacing holes smoothed out there would be no
          > problem at all.
          >
          > Saito
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... This is what people generally think of when you say jinbaori : http://www.yusoku.com/top-jinbaori.jpg It became pretty much the standard through the Edo
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 3, 2004
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            > The jinbaori I have seen have "lapels," and are slit
            > part way up the back (makes sense for mounted samurai),
            > while I think of haori as having a kimon-oid collar/lapel
            > arrangement and not having an open back.

            This is what people generally think of when you say "jinbaori":
            http://www.yusoku.com/top-jinbaori.jpg

            It became pretty much the standard through the Edo period, so it's the commonly
            envisioned "historical" model today.

            However, there are a dozen or so different styles. See:
            http://www.mmwhida.jp/beebo/hie/m13.htm
            http://www.city.chikushino.fukuoka.jp/furusato/sanpo02.htm
            http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/suigun/jinbaori.jpg
            http://lian.webup.co.jp/tanaka/textile/zuhan/00013/00013.jpg
            http://www.shirakawa.ne.jp/~rekimin/siri2/jin.jpg
            http://www.shirakawa.ne.jp/~rekimin/siri2/jin2.jpg
            http://vase02.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mego/image/aobam03.jpg
            http://www.iwate-np.co.jp/news/y2003/m03/d21/j200303213.jpg
            http://www.town.sanada.nagano.jp/archive/03media/gif/zinbaori.jpg

            Effingham
            --

            Anthony J. Bryant
            Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

            Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
            http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

            Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
            http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
          • Otagiri Tatsuzou
            So what is significantly different between this (a jinbaori): http://vase02.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mego/image/aobam03.jpg and this (a dobuku)?:
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 3, 2004
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              So what is significantly different between this (a jinbaori):
              http://vase02.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mego/image/aobam03.jpg

              and this (a dobuku)?:
              http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/graphics/garbphotos/dobuku1L.jpg


              Otagiri
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