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Re: Need advice

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  • Otagiri Tatsuzou
    ... Odawara-dono: The amount of time you would spend tooling a solid piece of leather to look like several pieces of laquered metal could be greater than the
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 2, 2004
      > So I am thinking one solid lame [leather],
      > maybe tooled to look like several
      > overlapping lames, and laced like it was several lames, but it isnt.
      >
      > Is this acceptable?
      >

      Odawara-dono:

      The amount of time you would spend tooling a solid piece of leather to
      look like several pieces of laquered metal could be greater than the
      amount of time it would take to make the pieces out of metal.

      Is the shikoro functional? By which I mean, does your helmet protect
      your neck without the shikoro? If the shikoro is functional, I doubt
      that you could make an sca-legal shikoro from leather.

      If the shikoro is simply meant to add a Japanese appearance, I suspect
      that the leather would quickly loose its shape and actually detract
      from your overall appearance. If metal is simply out of the question,
      you could glue leather to plastic to maintain it's shape, and then
      paint the leather to appear laquered. But, again, metal would be
      probably be quicker.

      My *guess* is that this approach would be more trouble than it would
      be worth.

      Otagiri
    • John
      Tatsuzou-Dono The shikoro is totally cosmetic in the helm I have been working on.I have a 14 gauge solid skirt under where it will go. The leather I am
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 2, 2004
        Tatsuzou-Dono
        The shikoro is totally cosmetic in the helm I have been working on.I
        have a 14 gauge solid skirt under where it will go.

        The leather I am thinking of using is soft enough to bounce back
        from shots and strong enough to hold shape as long as it isnt
        actually "folded". Metal, if creased would have to be removed,then
        hammered back into shape.

        Plus the big thing I am thinking about is catching a shot,
        the sword snagging on a lame and ripping the whole thing apart.

        Are there historical examples of solid shikoro's?

        Thanks
        Odawara Taro Yoshinobu
      • Donald Luby
        ... If there is a fully legal 16-or-thicker ga steel helmet underneath, you can cosmetically add to it however you like, though you should be careful if it
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 2, 2004
          On Aug 2, 2004, at 11:52 PM, John wrote:

          > Tatsuzou-Dono
          > The shikoro is totally cosmetic in the helm I have been working on. I
          > have a 14 gauge solid skirt under where it will go.

          If there is a fully legal 16-or-thicker ga steel helmet underneath, you
          can cosmetically add to it however you like, though you should be
          careful if it reduces your ability to recognize good blows.

          > The leather I am thinking of using is soft enough to bounce back
          > from shots and strong enough to hold shape as long as it isnt
          > actually "folded".

          I'd be doubly careful of blow calibration in this case: if, by its
          flexing, it absorbs a lot of the blow without transferring it to the
          helmet, you could easily be ignoring good blows and not know it,
          because you'd never feel them; I used to have a similar problem with my
          first haidate design, which got me a stern talking-to by a more
          experienced fighter, back in the day.

          > Metal, if creased would have to be removed, then hammered back into
          > shape.

          I've been fighting in kabuto with 16 ga steel shikoro for almost 20
          years, and I've never had it crease (though fukigaeshi can get pretty
          well flattened). My first kabuto (which I fought in for 5 years or so)
          had a solid riveted shikoro (with purely decorative lacing), and while
          the bowl (a 16 ga spun bowl) had to be pounded out twice, the shikoro
          never got a dent. And my two suceeding kabuto, both with regular
          'floating' shikoro, have never gotten creased either.

          > Plus the big thing I am thinking about is catching a shot,
          > the sword snagging on a lame and ripping the whole thing apart.

          Again, I've never had a shikoro get ripped, though through regular wear
          and tear I do re-lace it about once every 18 months when I take it
          apart to repaint it (FYI, between regular practices and fighting
          events, I'm in armor probably about 100 times a year).

          > Are there historical examples of solid shikoro's?

          None that I'm aware of; there are chinese helmets which have things
          that are like shikoro which are solid, though.

          I think your fears about if snagging and ripping apart being the basis
          for wanting to make it 'solid' are at least groundless, and quite
          possibly just compounding the potential problem; I believe you'd be
          much better off just making a regular shikoro out of a rigid material
          than a 'solid' shikoro out of a flexible material.

          > Thanks
          > Odawara Taro Yoshinobu


          Sir Koredono
          AEthelmearc Earl Marshal
        • Scott
          ... to ... I used to wear a kabuto with metal shikkoro and I did have a problem with the lames shearing through the lacing along the front edge, but I think
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 3, 2004
            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "John" <j_tygart@h...> wrote:
            > I have an idea, that I know will sound horrid, but I think it will
            > work. I am thinking of making a shikoro out of leather, no biggie
            > there, but instead of several overlapping lames, I am thinking of
            > one solid lame.
            >
            > Here is my logic, at fighter practice Sunday, i took a shot right
            to
            > my collarbone that would have hit the shikoro if I were waring a
            > kabuto. In hitting one of the lames, I could easily see it snagging
            > on one lame and ripping the whole thing apart.
            >
            > So I am thinking one solid lame, maybe tooled to look like several
            > overlapping lames, and laced like it was several lames, but it isnt.
            >
            > Is this acceptable?
            >
            > thanks in advance
            > Odawara Karo Yoshinobu

            I used to wear a kabuto with metal shikkoro and I did have a problem
            with the lames shearing through the lacing along the front edge, but
            I think that was mostly due to the fact that there were only 5 sets
            of lacing holes in it, leaving around 4 inches between the suspension
            points. I think with lacing set more closely together as it should be
            and the edges of the lacing holes smoothed out there would be no
            problem at all.

            Saito
          • raijin31
            Greetings!! I have been wearing kabuto with metal shikoro since 97. As Saito suggested, putting the lacing holes closer together do help lengthen the life of
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 3, 2004
              Greetings!!

              I have been wearing kabuto with metal shikoro since '97. As Saito
              suggested, putting the lacing holes closer together do help lengthen
              the life of the lacing. Like Saito, the only place the lacing frayed
              or broke was in the front, but I only had that happen twice in 7
              years. The lacing that broke usually snapped after becoming frayed,
              and even after it broke, because the other lacing was so close (about
              1 1/2" to 2" apart, it was no big deal. It wasn't enough for me to
              have to stop fighting for the day, and because it was only one piece
              of lacing, it only took about 5 minutes to repair...

              Otoshi

              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <sdsweetland@c...> wrote:
              > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "John" <j_tygart@h...> wrote:
              > > I have an idea, that I know will sound horrid, but I think it
              will
              > > work. I am thinking of making a shikoro out of leather, no biggie
              > > there, but instead of several overlapping lames, I am thinking of
              > > one solid lame.
              > >
              > > Here is my logic, at fighter practice Sunday, i took a shot right
              > to
              > > my collarbone that would have hit the shikoro if I were waring a
              > > kabuto. In hitting one of the lames, I could easily see it
              snagging
              > > on one lame and ripping the whole thing apart.
              > >
              > > So I am thinking one solid lame, maybe tooled to look like
              several
              > > overlapping lames, and laced like it was several lames, but it
              isnt.
              > >
              > > Is this acceptable?
              > >
              > > thanks in advance
              > > Odawara Karo Yoshinobu
              >
              > I used to wear a kabuto with metal shikkoro and I did have a
              problem
              > with the lames shearing through the lacing along the front edge,
              but
              > I think that was mostly due to the fact that there were only 5 sets
              > of lacing holes in it, leaving around 4 inches between the
              suspension
              > points. I think with lacing set more closely together as it should
              be
              > and the edges of the lacing holes smoothed out there would be no
              > problem at all.
              >
              > Saito
            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... This is what people generally think of when you say jinbaori : http://www.yusoku.com/top-jinbaori.jpg It became pretty much the standard through the Edo
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 3, 2004
                > The jinbaori I have seen have "lapels," and are slit
                > part way up the back (makes sense for mounted samurai),
                > while I think of haori as having a kimon-oid collar/lapel
                > arrangement and not having an open back.

                This is what people generally think of when you say "jinbaori":
                http://www.yusoku.com/top-jinbaori.jpg

                It became pretty much the standard through the Edo period, so it's the commonly
                envisioned "historical" model today.

                However, there are a dozen or so different styles. See:
                http://www.mmwhida.jp/beebo/hie/m13.htm
                http://www.city.chikushino.fukuoka.jp/furusato/sanpo02.htm
                http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/suigun/jinbaori.jpg
                http://lian.webup.co.jp/tanaka/textile/zuhan/00013/00013.jpg
                http://www.shirakawa.ne.jp/~rekimin/siri2/jin.jpg
                http://www.shirakawa.ne.jp/~rekimin/siri2/jin2.jpg
                http://vase02.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mego/image/aobam03.jpg
                http://www.iwate-np.co.jp/news/y2003/m03/d21/j200303213.jpg
                http://www.town.sanada.nagano.jp/archive/03media/gif/zinbaori.jpg

                Effingham
                --

                Anthony J. Bryant
                Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
              • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                So what is significantly different between this (a jinbaori): http://vase02.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mego/image/aobam03.jpg and this (a dobuku)?:
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 3, 2004
                  So what is significantly different between this (a jinbaori):
                  http://vase02.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mego/image/aobam03.jpg

                  and this (a dobuku)?:
                  http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/graphics/garbphotos/dobuku1L.jpg


                  Otagiri
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