Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Need advice

Expand Messages
  • John
    I have an idea, that I know will sound horrid, but I think it will work. I am thinking of making a shikoro out of leather, no biggie there, but instead of
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 2 7:42 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      I have an idea, that I know will sound horrid, but I think it will
      work. I am thinking of making a shikoro out of leather, no biggie
      there, but instead of several overlapping lames, I am thinking of
      one solid lame.

      Here is my logic, at fighter practice Sunday, i took a shot right to
      my collarbone that would have hit the shikoro if I were waring a
      kabuto. In hitting one of the lames, I could easily see it snagging
      on one lame and ripping the whole thing apart.

      So I am thinking one solid lame, maybe tooled to look like several
      overlapping lames, and laced like it was several lames, but it isnt.

      Is this acceptable?

      thanks in advance
      Odawara Karo Yoshinobu
    • Otagiri Tatsuzou
      ... Odawara-dono: The amount of time you would spend tooling a solid piece of leather to look like several pieces of laquered metal could be greater than the
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 2 8:23 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        > So I am thinking one solid lame [leather],
        > maybe tooled to look like several
        > overlapping lames, and laced like it was several lames, but it isnt.
        >
        > Is this acceptable?
        >

        Odawara-dono:

        The amount of time you would spend tooling a solid piece of leather to
        look like several pieces of laquered metal could be greater than the
        amount of time it would take to make the pieces out of metal.

        Is the shikoro functional? By which I mean, does your helmet protect
        your neck without the shikoro? If the shikoro is functional, I doubt
        that you could make an sca-legal shikoro from leather.

        If the shikoro is simply meant to add a Japanese appearance, I suspect
        that the leather would quickly loose its shape and actually detract
        from your overall appearance. If metal is simply out of the question,
        you could glue leather to plastic to maintain it's shape, and then
        paint the leather to appear laquered. But, again, metal would be
        probably be quicker.

        My *guess* is that this approach would be more trouble than it would
        be worth.

        Otagiri
      • John
        Tatsuzou-Dono The shikoro is totally cosmetic in the helm I have been working on.I have a 14 gauge solid skirt under where it will go. The leather I am
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 2 8:52 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Tatsuzou-Dono
          The shikoro is totally cosmetic in the helm I have been working on.I
          have a 14 gauge solid skirt under where it will go.

          The leather I am thinking of using is soft enough to bounce back
          from shots and strong enough to hold shape as long as it isnt
          actually "folded". Metal, if creased would have to be removed,then
          hammered back into shape.

          Plus the big thing I am thinking about is catching a shot,
          the sword snagging on a lame and ripping the whole thing apart.

          Are there historical examples of solid shikoro's?

          Thanks
          Odawara Taro Yoshinobu
        • Donald Luby
          ... If there is a fully legal 16-or-thicker ga steel helmet underneath, you can cosmetically add to it however you like, though you should be careful if it
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 2 11:11 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            On Aug 2, 2004, at 11:52 PM, John wrote:

            > Tatsuzou-Dono
            > The shikoro is totally cosmetic in the helm I have been working on. I
            > have a 14 gauge solid skirt under where it will go.

            If there is a fully legal 16-or-thicker ga steel helmet underneath, you
            can cosmetically add to it however you like, though you should be
            careful if it reduces your ability to recognize good blows.

            > The leather I am thinking of using is soft enough to bounce back
            > from shots and strong enough to hold shape as long as it isnt
            > actually "folded".

            I'd be doubly careful of blow calibration in this case: if, by its
            flexing, it absorbs a lot of the blow without transferring it to the
            helmet, you could easily be ignoring good blows and not know it,
            because you'd never feel them; I used to have a similar problem with my
            first haidate design, which got me a stern talking-to by a more
            experienced fighter, back in the day.

            > Metal, if creased would have to be removed, then hammered back into
            > shape.

            I've been fighting in kabuto with 16 ga steel shikoro for almost 20
            years, and I've never had it crease (though fukigaeshi can get pretty
            well flattened). My first kabuto (which I fought in for 5 years or so)
            had a solid riveted shikoro (with purely decorative lacing), and while
            the bowl (a 16 ga spun bowl) had to be pounded out twice, the shikoro
            never got a dent. And my two suceeding kabuto, both with regular
            'floating' shikoro, have never gotten creased either.

            > Plus the big thing I am thinking about is catching a shot,
            > the sword snagging on a lame and ripping the whole thing apart.

            Again, I've never had a shikoro get ripped, though through regular wear
            and tear I do re-lace it about once every 18 months when I take it
            apart to repaint it (FYI, between regular practices and fighting
            events, I'm in armor probably about 100 times a year).

            > Are there historical examples of solid shikoro's?

            None that I'm aware of; there are chinese helmets which have things
            that are like shikoro which are solid, though.

            I think your fears about if snagging and ripping apart being the basis
            for wanting to make it 'solid' are at least groundless, and quite
            possibly just compounding the potential problem; I believe you'd be
            much better off just making a regular shikoro out of a rigid material
            than a 'solid' shikoro out of a flexible material.

            > Thanks
            > Odawara Taro Yoshinobu


            Sir Koredono
            AEthelmearc Earl Marshal
          • Scott
            ... to ... I used to wear a kabuto with metal shikkoro and I did have a problem with the lames shearing through the lacing along the front edge, but I think
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 3 12:09 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "John" <j_tygart@h...> wrote:
              > I have an idea, that I know will sound horrid, but I think it will
              > work. I am thinking of making a shikoro out of leather, no biggie
              > there, but instead of several overlapping lames, I am thinking of
              > one solid lame.
              >
              > Here is my logic, at fighter practice Sunday, i took a shot right
              to
              > my collarbone that would have hit the shikoro if I were waring a
              > kabuto. In hitting one of the lames, I could easily see it snagging
              > on one lame and ripping the whole thing apart.
              >
              > So I am thinking one solid lame, maybe tooled to look like several
              > overlapping lames, and laced like it was several lames, but it isnt.
              >
              > Is this acceptable?
              >
              > thanks in advance
              > Odawara Karo Yoshinobu

              I used to wear a kabuto with metal shikkoro and I did have a problem
              with the lames shearing through the lacing along the front edge, but
              I think that was mostly due to the fact that there were only 5 sets
              of lacing holes in it, leaving around 4 inches between the suspension
              points. I think with lacing set more closely together as it should be
              and the edges of the lacing holes smoothed out there would be no
              problem at all.

              Saito
            • raijin31
              Greetings!! I have been wearing kabuto with metal shikoro since 97. As Saito suggested, putting the lacing holes closer together do help lengthen the life of
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 3 7:54 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Greetings!!

                I have been wearing kabuto with metal shikoro since '97. As Saito
                suggested, putting the lacing holes closer together do help lengthen
                the life of the lacing. Like Saito, the only place the lacing frayed
                or broke was in the front, but I only had that happen twice in 7
                years. The lacing that broke usually snapped after becoming frayed,
                and even after it broke, because the other lacing was so close (about
                1 1/2" to 2" apart, it was no big deal. It wasn't enough for me to
                have to stop fighting for the day, and because it was only one piece
                of lacing, it only took about 5 minutes to repair...

                Otoshi

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <sdsweetland@c...> wrote:
                > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "John" <j_tygart@h...> wrote:
                > > I have an idea, that I know will sound horrid, but I think it
                will
                > > work. I am thinking of making a shikoro out of leather, no biggie
                > > there, but instead of several overlapping lames, I am thinking of
                > > one solid lame.
                > >
                > > Here is my logic, at fighter practice Sunday, i took a shot right
                > to
                > > my collarbone that would have hit the shikoro if I were waring a
                > > kabuto. In hitting one of the lames, I could easily see it
                snagging
                > > on one lame and ripping the whole thing apart.
                > >
                > > So I am thinking one solid lame, maybe tooled to look like
                several
                > > overlapping lames, and laced like it was several lames, but it
                isnt.
                > >
                > > Is this acceptable?
                > >
                > > thanks in advance
                > > Odawara Karo Yoshinobu
                >
                > I used to wear a kabuto with metal shikkoro and I did have a
                problem
                > with the lames shearing through the lacing along the front edge,
                but
                > I think that was mostly due to the fact that there were only 5 sets
                > of lacing holes in it, leaving around 4 inches between the
                suspension
                > points. I think with lacing set more closely together as it should
                be
                > and the edges of the lacing holes smoothed out there would be no
                > problem at all.
                >
                > Saito
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... This is what people generally think of when you say jinbaori : http://www.yusoku.com/top-jinbaori.jpg It became pretty much the standard through the Edo
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 3 4:59 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  > The jinbaori I have seen have "lapels," and are slit
                  > part way up the back (makes sense for mounted samurai),
                  > while I think of haori as having a kimon-oid collar/lapel
                  > arrangement and not having an open back.

                  This is what people generally think of when you say "jinbaori":
                  http://www.yusoku.com/top-jinbaori.jpg

                  It became pretty much the standard through the Edo period, so it's the commonly
                  envisioned "historical" model today.

                  However, there are a dozen or so different styles. See:
                  http://www.mmwhida.jp/beebo/hie/m13.htm
                  http://www.city.chikushino.fukuoka.jp/furusato/sanpo02.htm
                  http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/suigun/jinbaori.jpg
                  http://lian.webup.co.jp/tanaka/textile/zuhan/00013/00013.jpg
                  http://www.shirakawa.ne.jp/~rekimin/siri2/jin.jpg
                  http://www.shirakawa.ne.jp/~rekimin/siri2/jin2.jpg
                  http://vase02.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mego/image/aobam03.jpg
                  http://www.iwate-np.co.jp/news/y2003/m03/d21/j200303213.jpg
                  http://www.town.sanada.nagano.jp/archive/03media/gif/zinbaori.jpg

                  Effingham
                  --

                  Anthony J. Bryant
                  Website: http://www.sengokudaimyo.com

                  Effingham's Heraldic Avatars (...and stuff):
                  http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/avatarbiz.html

                  Grand Cross, Order of the Laurel:
                  http://www.cafepress.com/laurelorder
                • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                  So what is significantly different between this (a jinbaori): http://vase02.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mego/image/aobam03.jpg and this (a dobuku)?:
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 3 6:45 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    So what is significantly different between this (a jinbaori):
                    http://vase02.hp.infoseek.co.jp/mego/image/aobam03.jpg

                    and this (a dobuku)?:
                    http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/garb/graphics/garbphotos/dobuku1L.jpg


                    Otagiri
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.