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[SCA-JML] karaginu, other pretty toys

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  • Ogami Itto
    Hello again! I just picked up a book called something like The Shogun Exhibit that has lots of pretty pictures, and even a little bit of text to go with it.
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 3, 2000
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      Hello again!
      I just picked up a book called something like "The Shogun Exhibit"
      that has lots of pretty pictures, and even a little bit of text to go
      with it. It covers only the Edo period though [ :( ], but it seems
      like some of the pictures might be useful for recreating earlier period
      "stuff".
      So, here go all the questions for every one out there in internet
      land that might be able to help (you know who you are...).
      First off, it lists a karaginu in the Noh section, and places the
      date at somewhere around the Heian period, if I remember correctly. (I
      don't have the book right here to reference.) Was the karaginu lined,
      or unlined? It looks like it's only about 2 panels wide, but I'm not
      to sure. It also looks as though it would have been downright
      uncomfortable to tuck into the hakama, so I figure that it must have
      been worn on the outside, but was the obi underneath, or over it?
      Second, I seem to recall that it dates a naga kamishimo to the
      late 1500's, and it shows hakama that have overlapping front pleats.
      Hey, what's the deal here? I thought that overlapping pleats only came
      about _after_ 1603-ish.
      Finally, for today, does anyone out there have any suggestions on
      where to buy traditional laquerware eating utensils and such (plates,
      bowls, cups, etc.), or, failing that, a few books with really good
      pictures so that I can make my own? (I finally got the lathe up and
      running, woo hoo!)
      Hey, thanks in advance for anyone that can help out with these.
      Happy Twelth Night!
      -Ogami Itto
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Avoid Noh costume; in many cases, the terms used are the same for court clothing with the same name, but the garments are in fact different (as the wearing
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 3, 2000
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        Ogami Itto wrote:

        > Hello again!
        > I just picked up a book called something like "The Shogun Exhibit"
        > that has lots of pretty pictures, and even a little bit of text to go
        > with it. It covers only the Edo period though [ :( ], but it seems
        > like some of the pictures might be useful for recreating earlier period
        > "stuff".
        > So, here go all the questions for every one out there in internet
        > land that might be able to help (you know who you are...).
        > First off, it lists a karaginu in the Noh section, and places the
        > date at somewhere around the Heian period, if I remember correctly. (I
        > don't have the book right here to reference.) Was the karaginu lined,
        > or unlined? It looks like it's only about 2 panels wide, but I'm not
        > to sure. It also looks as though it would have been downright
        > uncomfortable to tuck into the hakama, so I figure that it must have
        > been worn on the outside, but was the obi underneath, or over it?

        Avoid Noh costume; in many cases, the terms used are the same for court
        clothing with the same name, but the garments are in fact different (as the
        wearing of some items was proscribed by those not entitled to do so).

        Second -- the karaginu is a woman's robe. Kariginu (hunting coat)= a man's
        court robe. Karaginu (Chinese coat)= woman's underrobe.



        > Second, I seem to recall that it dates a naga kamishimo to the
        > late 1500's, and it shows hakama that have overlapping front pleats.
        > Hey, what's the deal here? I thought that overlapping pleats only came
        > about _after_ 1603-ish.

        I've never seen a pre-Tokugawa nagakamishimo...

        Overlapping pleats were extant but not the norm in the 1500s.

        > Finally, for today, does anyone out there have any suggestions on
        > where to buy traditional laquerware eating utensils and such (plates,
        > bowls, cups, etc.), or, failing that, a few books with really good
        > pictures so that I can make my own? (I finally got the lathe up and
        > running, woo hoo!)

        Yaohan, in Chicago. Also perhaps your local Oriental grociery store. You
        can usually find bowls and plates at least. The bowls are usually melamine
        (a kind of plastic) instead of lacquered wood, but given the cost of the
        real puppy, it's a deal. <G>

        Effingham
      • Ogami Itto
        ... court ... (as the ... Okay, so to avoid problems, how do I deal with making myself a kariginu? Would this be something that I should even bother trying to
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 6, 2000
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          > Avoid Noh costume; in many cases, the terms used are the same for
          court
          > clothing with the same name, but the garments are in fact different
          (as the
          > wearing of some items was proscribed by those not entitled to do so).

          Okay, so to avoid problems, how do I deal with making myself a
          kariginu? Would this be something that I should even bother trying to
          make, if I am trying to do a mid-ranked samurai? Oh, and I did mispell
          that in the earlier post. Sorry.

          > Second -- the karaginu is a woman's robe. Kariginu (hunting coat)= a
          man's
          > court robe. Karaginu (Chinese coat)= woman's underrobe.
          >

          > I've never seen a pre-Tokugawa nagakamishimo...


          Oops. I blew it. I'd swear that I saw something about the
          nagakamishimo dating from 1570's, but when I checked again, I couldn't
          find it. Wishful thinking, maybe? Anyway, the hakama that they showed
          were the really, really long ones that you can't actually walk in.

          > Overlapping pleats were extant but not the norm in the 1500s.
          >

          > Yaohan, in Chicago. Also perhaps your local Oriental grociery store.
          You
          > can usually find bowls and plates at least. The bowls are usually
          melamine
          > (a kind of plastic) instead of lacquered wood, but given the cost of
          the
          > real puppy, it's a deal. <G>

          Oh, yeah, you can say _that_ again. I saw some actual, modern pieces
          (non-antique) going for 30,000+ yen. Ouch! Does Yaohan have a web
          site, or do I have to truck my butt on down to Chicago? It's kind of a
          long drive... And while I'm thinking of it, any good books on the
          practical side of laquerware, as opposed to the artistic garbage that
          is barely functional?

          Sorry to use this forum for semi-private messages... <grin>
          Ogami Itto
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... Sorry for the delay. Sigh... You probably don t need a kariginu. For samurai, that s the *most* formal of formal wear, literally worn at court where
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 16, 2000
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            Ogami Itto wrote:

            > Okay, so to avoid problems, how do I deal with making myself a
            > kariginu? Would this be something that I should even bother trying to
            > make, if I am trying to do a mid-ranked samurai? Oh, and I did mispell
            > that in the earlier post. Sorry.

            Sorry for the delay. Sigh...

            You probably don't need a kariginu. For samurai, that's the *most* formal
            of formal wear, literally worn at court where royalty is around. In keeping
            with Japanese esthetics, I wouldn't recommend a kariginu for anyone who's
            not a brass hat of some sort, and principality/kingdom officer, or a peer.

            Midrank's formal would be a hitatare/daimon (late period) or a suikan
            (earlier period).

            Effingham
          • Ogami Itto
            ... to ... formal ... keeping ... who s ... peer. ... This raises a few other questions in turn. First, if I were to make an appearance in a royal court, for
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 18, 2000
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              >
              > > Okay, so to avoid problems, how do I deal with making myself a
              > > kariginu? Would this be something that I should even bother trying
              to
              > > make, if I am trying to do a mid-ranked samurai?

              > You probably don't need a kariginu. For samurai, that's the *most*
              formal
              > of formal wear, literally worn at court where royalty is around. In
              keeping
              > with Japanese esthetics, I wouldn't recommend a kariginu for anyone
              who's
              > not a brass hat of some sort, and principality/kingdom officer, or a
              peer.
              >
              > Midrank's formal would be a hitatare/daimon (late period) or a suikan
              > (earlier period).
              >

              This raises a few other questions in turn. First, if I were to
              make an appearance in a royal court, for instance, would a kariginu be
              a good thing or a bad thing? (By "appearance", I mean that I was
              actually asked to participate, either to recieve an award or to be part
              of the royal groupies.) In some of the notes in my book about the
              Tokugawa museum, it notes that in the Edo peiod, hitatare and
              naga-kamishimo were considered formal wear for the low and midrank
              samurai, while the kariginu was essentially only for those holding rank
              in the imperial court. Obviously, a naga-kamishimo is right out of the
              question. But, on the other hand, I seem to recall that hitatare was
              considered sort of a day-to-day item of clothing for mid-high level
              samurai.
              Second, this particular book states quite plainly that certain
              colors, weaves, cuts of fabric, paterns, garments, etc. ad naseum, were
              reserved for certain ranks. Did this hold true in the Azouchi
              (spelling?) and Momoyama periods as well?
              Domo arigato
              guzaimasu,
              Ogami Itto
            • Kass McGann
              Mind if I jump in here, Effy-chan? Ogami-dono, If I may help to answer your questions about the kariginu... ... formal ... keeping ... who s ... peer. ... This
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 18, 2000
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                Mind if I jump in here, Effy-chan?

                Ogami-dono,

                If I may help to answer your questions about the kariginu...

                > You probably don't need a kariginu. For samurai, that's the *most*
                formal
                > of formal wear, literally worn at court where royalty is around. In
                keeping
                > with Japanese esthetics, I wouldn't recommend a kariginu for anyone
                who's
                > not a brass hat of some sort, and principality/kingdom officer, or a
                peer.
                >
                > Midrank's formal would be a hitatare/daimon (late period) or a suikan
                > (earlier period).

                This raises a few other questions in turn. First, if I were to
                make an appearance in a royal court, for instance, would a kariginu be
                a good thing or a bad thing? (By "appearance", I mean that I was
                actually asked to participate, either to recieve an award or to be part
                of the royal groupies.) In some of the notes in my book about the
                Tokugawa museum, it notes that in the Edo peiod, hitatare and
                naga-kamishimo were considered formal wear for the low and midrank
                samurai, while the kariginu was essentially only for those holding rank
                in the imperial court. Obviously, a naga-kamishimo is right out of the
                question. But, on the other hand, I seem to recall that hitatare was
                considered sort of a day-to-day item of clothing for mid-high level
                samurai.
                >>>>
                If I were you, I would have a kariginu to wear for appearances in court. I
                just made one for my Master for him to wear when he attends Their Majesties.
                Of course it matters what period you are protraying and what rank you hold.
                >>>>
                Second, this particular book states quite plainly that certain
                colors, weaves, cuts of fabric, paterns, garments, etc. ad naseum, were
                reserved for certain ranks. Did this hold true in the Azouchi
                (spelling?) and Momoyama periods as well?
                >>>>
                Every period had it's own sumptuary laws, including Azuchi and Momoyama. I
                am at a loss, however, to tell you exactly what they are.

                Respectfully,
                Fujiwara no Aoi
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... Go-enryounaku, ne! ... Ummm... complicated? The nice thing about a large chunk of Azuchi-Momoyama is that there was a rather chaotic social order in
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 18, 2000
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                  Kass McGann wrote:

                  > Mind if I jump in here, Effy-chan?
                  >

                  Go-enryounaku, ne!

                  >
                  > Every period had it's own sumptuary laws, including Azuchi and Momoyama. I
                  > am at a loss, however, to tell you exactly what they are.

                  Ummm... complicated? <G> The nice thing about a large chunk of Azuchi-Momoyama
                  is that there was a rather chaotic social order in place. Until around 1585,
                  you could pretty much "roll on your charisma" as they say out West.


                  Effingham
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