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Re: Subject: Log cabins

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  • James Eckman
    From: Park McKellop ... Yep, the Germans and the Swedes used them extensively. Just not the English, they built the same
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 2 6:10 PM
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      From: Park McKellop <squire009@...>

      >Subject: Log cabins
      >
      >I'm not sure I understand. I've seen manuscripts/paintings of European log cabins (15thC+), that aren't that different from colonial versions.
      >
      Yep, the Germans and the Swedes used them extensively. Just not the
      English, they built the same half-timbered homes they built at home with
      wattle an daub or other infill for walls.

      >I was not aware that many Indians lived in log cabins at the time of settlement.
      >
      They did, some of the Northeastern Indians were quite advanced. There
      were log cabins up and down the Eastern seaboards as well as in Oregon
      and Washington for sure, there were probably more. If they had been
      slightly more advanced in metallurgy and warfare we might be having this
      conversation in Iroquis.

      >Did they actually live in them, or did they tell the Europeans how to build what they had never experienced?
      >
      Remember Thanksgiving? The Indians teaching the Pilgrims? It's not all
      BS ^_^

      > ;-) IIRC, the Iriquois lived above the ground on ~~~stilt homes (can't remember the right word), but they didn't equate to log framed buildings, did they?
      >
      >
      I seem to remember they had long houses, here's one link:
      http://schools.tdsb.on.ca/parkdaleps/Welland04/aboriginal/vipuliroquis_.htm


      Jim
    • Solveig
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... As I recall, although Northwest Coastal Indians did use trees for just about everything imaginable including weaving
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 3 9:47 PM
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        >They did, some of the Northeastern Indians were quite advanced. There
        >were log cabins up and down the Eastern seaboards as well as in Oregon
        >and Washington for sure, there were probably more. If they had been
        >slightly more advanced in metallurgy and warfare we might be having this
        >conversation in Iroquis.

        As I recall, although Northwest Coastal Indians did use trees for just about
        everything imaginable including weaving cloth, they did not live in log houses.

        The arrival of log cabins in the colonies is generally attributed to the
        arrival of the Swedes and Finns in 1633.

        Later some Indian groups such as the Chickasaw took up living in log cabins.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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      • RavenRux@COX.NET
        There is a pre-columbian site in Washington (I think it is called Ozzette?) that has evidence of log construction. Masamune From: Solveig
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 5 5:14 AM
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          There is a pre-columbian site in Washington (I think it is called Ozzette?) that has evidence of log construction.

          Masamune

          From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
          Date: 2004/07/04 Sun AM 12:47:37 EDT
          To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Subject: Log cabins



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Solveig
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! I wish that you would provide a citation. I recall coastal indians living in split plank lodges. These frequently had
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 5 6:14 PM
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            I wish that you would provide a citation. I recall coastal indians living
            in split plank lodges. These frequently had lodge poles at their entrances.
            Only two groups had free standing totem poles.
            --

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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          • Tim McShane
            ... Only two groups had free standing totem poles. -- ... Only two? I m not sure what you by free standing totem poles, but Garfield an Wingert (The
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 5 7:58 PM
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              Lady Solveig wrote:

              >snip<
              Only two groups had free standing totem poles.
              --
              >snip<

              Only two? I'm not sure what you by "free standing totem poles," but Garfield an Wingert (The Tsimshian Indians and Their Arts, Seattle: University of Washington Press, 1966, pp. 80 ff) list the Tsimshian, Tlingit, Haida and Kwakiutl (now generally referred to as Kwagiuth or Kwakwaka'wakw) all as pole-carvers, and none of their poles traditionally had anything holding them up but the portion of them buried in the ground (however, subsequent efforts to preserve the poles in a standing position have frequently added additional supports). Wilson Duff (The Indian History of British Columbia, Victoria: Provincial Museum of Natural History and Anthropology, 1965, pp. 83-85) adds Niska (now commonly spelled Nisga'a), Gitksan, Bella Coola, Nootka (now Nuu-Chah-Nulth and Makah) and Coast Salish. Many of these coastal peoples (notably the Nuu-chah-nulth and Kwakwaka'wakw) also made remarkably efficient and resiliant sea-going canoes from hollowed-out and steamed logs. Make no mistake--this part of the world is heavily populated with indigenous people intimately conversant with log construction.

              While I can't recall any specific mention to log construction on the North-West Pacific coast (most evidence available is from historic times, as wood does not last long in that warm, wet environment), it stands to reason that the split-plank construction emerged from log construction as a material conservation effort. Even in the split-plank buildings, full logs (often over 2 feet in diameter--see Inverarity, Art of the Northwest Coast Indians, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1950, p. 11) are used for the structural members (much more than just the entrance poles). Certainly, it's known that groups from the interior of British Columbia constructed pit houses consisting of a round excavation roofed by a "cone" of logs that were then covered with turf. You can see a re-creation of this in the Royal British Columbia Museum. Perhaps not the usual picture that "log cabin" conjures up, but a log-construction dwelling just the same.

              In Service,

              - Shiro (formerly a professional archaeologist and resident of the North-West coast)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Solveig
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The question is whether or not the poles were free standing or attched to lodges. I was taught many years ago that
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 5 8:20 PM
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                >Only two? I'm not sure what you by "free standing totem poles," but
                >Garfield an Wingert (The Tsimshian Indians and Their Arts, Seattle:
                >University of Washington Press, 1966, pp. 80 ff) list the Tsimshian,
                >Tlingit, Haida and Kwakiutl

                The question is whether or not the poles were free standing or attched to
                lodges. I was taught many years ago that only the Haida and the Tlingit
                actually carved free standing poles. I was also taught that many other
                groups carved similar poles which were not free standing. However, my
                anthropology professor or the textbook may have been mistaken. It was
                rather a long time ago, but his speciality was northwest indians. Northwest
                coastal indians are interesting linguisticly in that supposeably
                almost every little inlet had its own distinct language.

                >Make no mistake--this part of the world is heavily populated with
                >indigenous people intimately conversant with log construction.

                As I wrote, these folks made all kinds of stuff including their clothing
                out of trees. That still doesn't support log cabin construction which is
                what is at issue.

                >It stands to reason that the split-plank construction emerged from
                >log construction as a material conservation effort.

                Not a good argument. You should check out the size of the indigenous trees.
                A lot of the trees are simply BIG. You should consider that split plank
                construction was employed to save labour. Also, split planks dwellings are
                easier to dissasemble and transport which is what the Encarta encyclopea
                claims was done on occasion. I do not recall reading this bit previously.
                I just ran across that several hours ago while I was attempting to check
                out the claim for pre-Columbian log construction. Regardless. My claim
                was that log cabin style constuction is rare.

                >Even in the split-plank buildings, full logs (often over 2 feet in
                >diameter--see Inverarity, Art of the Northwest Coast Indians,
                >Berkeley: University of California Press, 1950, p. 11) are used for
                >the structural members (much more than just the entrance poles).

                Encarta claims that the posts were left standing and the planks transported
                to make temporary shelters.

                >Certainly, it's known that groups from the interior of British
                >Columbia constructed pit houses consisting of a round excavation
                >roofed by a "cone" of logs that were then covered with turf. You
                >can see a re-creation of this in the Royal British Columbia Museum.

                I've been there. I was interested by its resemblance to a kamakura.

                >Perhaps not the usual picture that "log cabin" conjures up, but a
                >log-construction dwelling just the same.

                What I was making the claim about was interlocking log construction.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                | the trash by my email filters. |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              • Ii Saburou
                ... How do you determine groups? Tlinget and Haida had totem poles, as well as other groups down in what is now Washington (and Oregon?). There are others
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 5 11:01 PM
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                  On Mon, 5 Jul 2004, Solveig wrote:

                  > I wish that you would provide a citation. I recall coastal indians living
                  > in split plank lodges. These frequently had lodge poles at their entrances.
                  > Only two groups had free standing totem poles.

                  How do you determine groups? Tlinget and Haida had totem poles, as well
                  as other groups down in what is now Washington (and Oregon?). There are
                  others whose names I don't know of. However, I believe the Tlinget and
                  Haida are a similar ethnic group, even if they are different nations.

                  However, I guess this is way off-topic.

                  -Ii
                • squire009@baronyofvatavia.org
                  There are several ways. You could use the lists of tribal groups recognized by the Federal government. ;-) Linguistic analysis is a good way, as is cultural
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 5 11:48 PM
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                    There are several ways.

                    You could use the lists of tribal groups recognized by the Federal
                    government. ;-)

                    Linguistic analysis is a good way, as is cultural similarity and self
                    identification.

                    The Muskogee/Creek nation was called that by settlers because they
                    tended to live by creeks, which isn't that uncommon, since most
                    people need fresh water. ;-) While they were identified as a
                    tribal 'group', they did not all speak the same language.

                    I have no idea what the differences are between the Haida and the
                    Tlinglit. They may be as different as the difference between the
                    Billyyank and Johnnyreb tribes. ;-)

                    Alcyoneus

                    >> How do you determine groups? Tlinget and Haida had totem poles,
                    as well
                    > as other groups down in what is now Washington (and Oregon?).
                    There are
                    > others whose names I don't know of. However, I believe the Tlinget
                    and
                    > Haida are a similar ethnic group, even if they are different
                    nations.
                    >
                    > However, I guess this is way off-topic.
                    >
                    > -Ii
                  • Solveig
                    Ii dono! Greetings from Solveig! ... The business about only the Haida and Tlinget having true totem poles is one of the things that I recall as being
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 6 1:19 PM
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                      Ii dono!

                      Greetings from Solveig!

                      >How do you determine groups? Tlinget and Haida had totem poles, as well
                      >as other groups down in what is now Washington (and Oregon?). There are
                      >others whose names I don't know of. However, I believe the Tlinget and
                      >Haida are a similar ethnic group, even if they are different nations.

                      The business about only the Haida and Tlinget having true totem poles is one
                      of the things that I recall as being surprising when I studied North
                      American indians. As I said before, other groups had lodge poles which look
                      very similar.
                      --

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      | the trash by my email filters. |
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                    • Ii Saburou
                      Some preliminary web research shows it doesn t look that far off. The Tlinget and Haida peoples seem to be the predominant totem carvers, although I ve found
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 7 3:31 AM
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                        Some preliminary web research shows it doesn't look that far off. The
                        Tlinget and Haida peoples seem to be the predominant totem carvers,
                        although I've found at least one Tsimshian pole--not surprising as they
                        live in the midst of the Tlinget and Haida tribes.

                        -Ii

                        On Tue, 6 Jul 2004, Solveig wrote:

                        > Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 16:19:11 -0400
                        > From: Solveig <nostrand@...>
                        > Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: OT: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Subject: Log cabins
                        >
                        > Ii dono!
                        >
                        > Greetings from Solveig!
                        >
                        > >How do you determine groups? Tlinget and Haida had totem poles, as well
                        > >as other groups down in what is now Washington (and Oregon?). There are
                        > >others whose names I don't know of. However, I believe the Tlinget and
                        > >Haida are a similar ethnic group, even if they are different nations.
                        >
                        > The business about only the Haida and Tlinget having true totem poles is one
                        > of the things that I recall as being surprising when I studied North
                        > American indians. As I said before, other groups had lodge poles which look
                        > very similar.
                        > --
                        >
                        > Your Humble Servant
                        > Solveig Throndardottir
                        > Amateur Scholar
                        >
                        > +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                        > | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        > | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                        > +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        > | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                        > | the trash by my email filters. |
                        > +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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