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Re: help with persona - two questions

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  • Jennifer Oaks
    ... wrote: There s a ... version, ... I found the picture I was referring to on the English version of the site, under the Muromachi/Kamakura era, it is the
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 2, 2004
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Oaks" <jennmoaks@m...>
      wrote:
      There's a
      > picture on the Costume Museum site, it may be the Japanese
      version,
      > of a monk with attire similar to what I'm describing. Solveig or
      > someone else on the list had suggested it to me, I'll see if I can
      > find it back in the archives to reference it for you.
      >
      I found the picture I was referring to on the English version of the
      site, under the Muromachi/Kamakura era, it is the Noh costume for
      the character of the Buddhist monk (about halfway down the list).
      Even though it's a theater costume, whoever referred it to me said
      it would work as a guide.

      Keiaiji no Nyudo Nyodai
    • Jess
      Hello, and thanks! Long-winded is fine, gets more info accross, and I don t mind wading. ;-) I ve been to both sites, and I really like Mokurai s Temple - nice
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 4, 2004
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        Hello, and thanks! Long-winded is fine, gets more info accross,
        and I don't mind wading. ;-)
        I've been to both sites, and I really like Mokurai's Temple - nice
        pics - but I find the Institue hard to navigate. I'm sure there is
        plenty of material there that I'm just not seeing. :-(

        -Jess

        > Long winded way of saying hello, keep up the good work, and
        check
        > out the Institute for Medieval Japanese Studies and also
        Mokurai's
        > Temple--a lot of good info there on being a monastic (albeit
        from
        > the perspective of a monk rather than a nun, but still good).
        >
        > Best of luck,
        > Keiaiji no Nyudo Nyodai
      • Jess
        ... ... likely to ... to have one ... Just to make sure we re on the same wavelengh, I do want to say that I wasn t translating jasmine as kuchinashi -
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 4, 2004
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          > >Hasuzawa Kuchinashi
          >
          <snip>
          >
          > Please don't try to translate Jasmine as "Kushinashi" is not
          likely to
          > work well as a Japanese personal name as it is just too long
          to have one
          > of the name forming endings added to it.

          Just to make sure we're on the same wavelengh, I do want to
          say that I wasn't translating jasmine as kuchinashi - I did my
          homework on this one.

          I started out by looking for a japanese trasnlation to Jasmine, but
          found little. Then I started looking for actual plant names, not just
          dictionary translations, and I found kuchinashi.

          I have several resources which list kuchinashi as = Gardenia,
          and when I looked up the Japanese gardenia, I found that it's
          scientific name is in the jasmine family. Some sites have
          different jasmine plants listed, so I figure it must be a mixture of
          regional differences and human error. I don't really care, what
          interests me is that it's somewhat related. I don't mind being
          called 'gardenia'.

          In my Japanese/English dictionary, the entry for kuchinashi has
          no kanji, it is written out in hiragana - which is fine for a woman's
          name, as far as I understand. I didn't put two kanji together to
          create this, and I'm not trying for a perfect translation. Indeed, I'm
          not really after a translation at all, just 'something similar'.

          My copy of Japanese Design Motifs has a mon using kuchinashi,
          and the contents lists it as 'cape jasmine'. Like I said though, I
          really don't care if it's supposed to be a variety of jasmine or a
          gardenia, I was just looking for something close that I liked the
          sound of. I do have to live with whatever I choose, and answer to
          it. ;-)

          I know it's a long name, I was figuring on making a nickname
          based on it, like O-nashi, or Kuchi-me. It's one of those things I
          haven't worked out yet. That way, I'd have my 'official' name, and
          then the one everyone calls me by in informal situations.

          I don't have much to go on for the naming practices of the time. In
          fact, the only book(s) I have that can guide me is the Tale of
          Genji, which contains many feminine names of three to four
          sylables, with few names having an official 'ending'.
          I realize that these are mostly 'character' names, even in period,
          but people have been named after characters in literature for
          about as long as there has been literature to name kids after. ;-)

          My main rationalization on kuchinashi being acceptable was
          remembering Lady Asagao - meaning both the flower Morning
          Glory, and 'morning face'.

          I know this is a pretty long blog, just to clear things up - but I was
          laying awake the other night thinking on things, and it started
          bugging me that we might have gotten our signals crossed by
          the choice of words I asked the original question in.

          I did find a different jasmine related name, Sokei (jasminum
          officinale) - and I may end up using this instead, but I kind of like
          Kuchinashi, long as it is.

          If there is a reason (say, character names don't fly) that I can't
          name myself after a flower, like in Tale of Genji, then I'll accept
          that. But there are many names in that book that are a much
          larger mouthfull, and even some of the shorter ones don't always
          have what looks like a feminine name ender.

          I'm sorry this is so long, I just want to make sure I've gotten my
          intentions accross.

          If I'm totally off in left field, and I can be - just give me a few
          pointers to get started in the right direction.

          Thank you for helping, (really!)
          Jess
        • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
          Pardon an aside from another newbie, but what is the verdict on flower names? I posted a while back on the name Nadeshiko/Nadesco and was wondering what
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 4, 2004
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            Pardon an aside from another newbie, but what is the verdict on
            flower names? I posted a while back on the name Nadeshiko/Nadesco
            and was wondering what thoughts were on that...

            And Jess, if flower names get the ok, then I'd stop rooting around
            in scientific dictionaries (: You'll want to find the common name
            for the flower as that flower's name might have been given as the
            Japanese translation of the scientific name or something weird like
            that, I've seen that instance pop up a couple times...

            > My main rationalization on kuchinashi being acceptable was
            > remembering Lady Asagao - meaning both the flower Morning
            > Glory, and 'morning face'.
            >
            > If there is a reason (say, character names don't fly) that I can't
            > name myself after a flower, like in Tale of Genji, then I'll
            accept
            > that.
          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... My impression from thumbing through History of Japanese Feminine Names a few times is that names of those two forms
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 5, 2004
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              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              >I know it's a long name, I was figuring on making a nickname
              >based on it, like O-nashi, or Kuchi-me. It's one of those things I
              >haven't worked out yet. That way, I'd have my 'official' name, and
              >then the one everyone calls me by in informal situations.

              My impression from thumbing through History of Japanese Feminine Names
              a few times is that names of those two forms are real live names and
              not nicknames. O- form names come in during the late Muromachi or later.
              -me form names date from the Nara period.

              >My main rationalization on kuchinashi being acceptable was
              >remembering Lady Asagao - meaning both the flower Morning
              >Glory, and 'morning face'.

              Asago is nice and short and I would expect it to take an early name forming
              ending reasonably well.

              >I did find a different jasmine related name, Sokei (jasminum
              >officinale) - and I may end up using this instead, but I kind of like
              >Kuchinashi, long as it is.

              Kuchinashi is nice and poetic and kunyomi. The problem with Sokei is
              that just from the sound of it I would guess that it is an onyomi
              noun and would therefore not be a likely root for a Japanese name.

              >If there is a reason (say, character names don't fly) that I can't
              >name myself after a flower, like in Tale of Genji, then I'll accept
              >that. But there are many names in that book that are a much
              >larger mouthfull, and even some of the shorter ones don't always
              >have what looks like a feminine name ender.

              I believe that flowers are fine. I am having problems specifically with
              kuchinashi.

              Kuchinashi has interesting problems. I looked it up in Zusetsu Somoku
              Meiroku Jiten. Kushinashi first appears in the Engishiki where the
              second character
              is the same character which is read as "ko" in Japanese feminine names. If
              you want to have a bit of a joke I suppose that you could take this as your
              name and read it differently. You should understand that this is written
              with two kanji the first of which means to branch out like on a twig and
              it can imply branching out in all directions.

              Although the name usage table in Kadokawa Kanwajiten only gives -SHI as
              a reading for this kanji when used in names, I suggest that you use the
              root for the reading as sasa-eru to form Sasako. I only suggest this if
              you absolutely must go with the flower you have been discussing. Basically,
              this is a fairly straight forward reading of the Engishiki version of the
              plant name.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            • Jess
              ... This is what happens when I only have a couple of old pamplets to go by. I m embarrased at the unintentional mistake. What _would_ a nickname formed from a
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 6, 2004
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                > My impression from thumbing through History of Japanese
                >Feminine Names a few times is that names of those two forms
                >are real live names and not nicknames. O- form names come
                >in during the late >Muromachi or later. -me form names date
                >from the Nara period.
                >
                This is what happens when I only have a couple of old pamplets
                to go by. I'm embarrased at the unintentional mistake.
                What _would_ a nickname formed from a regular name look
                like? Are there any specific conventions to making them?

                > Asago is nice and short and I would expect it to take an early
                >name forming ending reasonably well.
                >
                Since Asagao doesn't have one in the book (Genji), what would it
                read as after putting a name ender on?

                >
                > Kuchinashi is nice and poetic and kunyomi. The problem with
                >Sokei is that just from the sound of it I would guess that it is an
                >onyomi noun and would therefore not be a likely root for a
                >Japanese name.
                >
                Ah. That makes sense. If I had the kanji for this word, I could look
                up the alternate reading and use that. (assuming it sounds ok)
                But I don't, so I can't.

                >
                > Kuchinashi has interesting problems. I looked it up in Zusetsu
                >Somoku Meiroku Jiten. Kushinashi first appears in the
                >Engishiki where the second character is the same character
                >which is read as "ko" in Japanese feminine names. If you want
                >to have a bit of a joke I suppose that you could take this as your
                >name and read it differently. You should understand that this is
                >written with two kanji the first of which means to branch out like
                >on a twig and it can imply branching out in all directions.
                >
                > Although the name usage table in Kadokawa Kanwajiten only
                >gives -SHI as a reading for this kanji when used in names, I
                >suggest that you use the root for the reading as sasa-eru to
                >form Sasako. I only suggest this if you absolutely must go with
                >the flower you have been discussing. Basically, this is a fairly
                >straight forward reading of the Engishiki version of the plant
                >name.
                >
                Okay, struggling with this part - forgive me for using a club to turn
                pages.

                So, kuCHI.nashi gets changed over to kuSHI.nashi, and the
                readings are different, thus making a play on the shi/ko name
                ender?
                I'm assuming from the above that the word got chopped up
                further than I'd though it was and is now ku.chi/shi.na.shi.
                Am I to understand that the first and last shi are the same, and
                the kanji for na is the one for 'name' which is also used as the
                name ender 'ko'? (slowly, with much dictionary flapping, I think
                I'm getting a clue)
                What about the kanji for ku, is it to be ignored in favor of this new
                name, or is it that chopped up like this, there are no KUN
                readings for a ku kanji - thus making it not suitable for name
                construction? Just for comparison, what kanji was usd for 'ku'?
                I'm assuming that whatever the reading or meaning, it would get
                in the way of the pun, and so wouldn't be desired as part of the
                new name.


                Using the verb root, wouldn't Sasashi be another varient? It
                would bypass the 'na' kanji, and thus be a totally different name,
                but it sounds ok.
                I have a dislike for -ko ended names. No matter how much
                research goes into making a name, if it ends with -ko, there will
                be comments about modern naming practices.

                Why would the Gardenia have a woman's name? Is this a
                common practice in 'naming' plants? Perhaps some things are
                considered 'feminine' and thus needed a 'feminine' word/name
                to describe it? (grasping at straws)
                Or do we have several varients on this combination, and this
                was just the first instance to translate?

                Whew. I really need more reference books.

                Thank you for taking the trouble to help.
                -Jess
              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... No. -SHI is the onyommi for -ko. The sasa part of sasaeru is writtin in kanji. The Engishiki uses + to
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 6, 2004
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  >So, kuCHI.nashi gets changed over to kuSHI.nashi, and the
                  >readings are different, thus making a play on the shi/ko name
                  >ender?

                  No. -SHI is the onyommi for -ko. The "sasa" part of "sasaeru" is
                  writtin in kanji. The Engishiki uses <sasa>+<ko> to write the
                  name of the "kuchinashi" plant. The word refers to both the plant
                  and its flower. (cf. pp. 188)

                  >I'm assuming from the above that the word got chopped up
                  >further than I'd though it was and is now ku.chi/shi.na.shi.

                  The form in the Engishiki is written with precisely two kanji. However,
                  the -na- may be a sound which was not written.

                  There are many names and poetic allusions to the plant and its flower:
                  including senbuku, sanshishi, kagaribisau, kuchinaoshi, senboku.

                  There are about twenty different ways to write the name of the plant
                  in kanji found in classical literature. As I wrote earlier,
                  <sasa><ko> is the way it is
                  written in the Engishiki and this is the earliest appearance of the plant
                  and its flower in classical Japanese literature.

                  >Am I to understand that the first and last shi are the same, and
                  >the kanji for na is the one for 'name' which is also used as the
                  >name ender 'ko'?

                  No. The book is not clear about this, however -SHI is the onyomi for -ko.
                  Again, there are only two kanji involved in the version appearing in the
                  Engishiki.

                  >Using the verb root, wouldn't Sasashi be another varient?

                  Not likely. sasa- is a kunyomi reading and -ko is a kunyomi reading
                  while -SHI is an onyomi reading.

                  >It would bypass the 'na' kanji, and thus be a totally different name,
                  >but it sounds ok.

                  There is no "na kanji" in any of the various versions of kuchinashi.

                  If you prefer an alternative to "sasaeru" then there is a version
                  which is written <azayaka><ko> This corresponds to "Yoshiko" which is
                  a real modern Japanese girl's name which appears in Kadokawa
                  Kanwajiten. This letter is written with fish on the left and goat on
                  the right and is read "yoshi" in Yoshiko. You can find this letter in
                  your dictionary if you look for "shinsen"
                  in which case it is the second letter.

                  The dictionary definition of "azayaka" is "itsukushiku hakkiri shiteru".
                  Kenkyusha says that it means "(1) clear (lines), vivid, bright (colours).
                  (2) splendid, brilliant, fine."

                  So. You can pick one of the recognized non-standard ways of writing
                  "kushinashi" and have kanji which can be read as "Yoshiko" which is a
                  real Japanese woman's name. This is not quite a antique as "Sasako",
                  but is better documented.

                  >I have a dislike for -ko ended names. No matter how much
                  >research goes into making a name, if it ends with -ko, there will
                  >be comments about modern naming practices.

                  -ko is a perfectly fine way to construct names during the Heian period.
                  It is easy to avoid -ko names if you want to, but I recommend that you
                  give up on "kushinashi" if you want to go this route.

                  Regardless. Before -ko names there wer -me names and -hime names. After
                  -ko names, there were O- names.

                  >Why would the Gardenia have a woman's name? Is this a
                  >common practice in 'naming' plants? Perhaps some things are
                  >considered 'feminine' and thus needed a 'feminine' word/name
                  >to describe it?

                  No. The kanji -ko actually comes from -zi in classical Chinese. -zi is
                  a word for "master". It is found in the names of Kong Zi (Confucus),
                  Meng Zi (Mencius), Zhuang Zi, Hui Zi, &al. Crown prince in Japanese
                  is "taishi" as in "Shoutoku Taishi" and uses the same -zi kanji. I
                  believe that -ko actually comes from -hiko and -me comes from -hime
                  which makes -ko originally a masculine ending and not a feminine
                  ending. Consider the almost homophonic names Izanami and Izanagi. The
                  male god is Izanagi and the female god is Izanami.

                  >Whew. I really need more reference books.

                  I strongly recommend that you either use the excellent study on Japanese
                  feminine names by Tsunoda Bun'ei (out of print and only available in
                  Japanese) or get a copy of NCMJ or at least take a look at Koop and
                  Inada's book.
                  Please don't expect me to rewrite my pamphlet online. The first version
                  took about four years to produce.
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                • Jess
                  Meep. Looks like I m totally off base everywhere. So the bottom line is that there _is no_ period reference for kuchinashi as it is written today, and I should
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 7, 2004
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                    Meep. Looks like I'm totally off base everywhere.

                    So the bottom line is that there _is no_ period reference for
                    kuchinashi as it is written today, and I should shut up about it
                    and pick something similar that _is_ referenceable.

                    You're reccommending Sasako as the best bet, are the other
                    mentions about the plant in qestion (senbuku, sanshishi,
                    kagaribisau, kuchinaoshi, senboku) suitable at all for name
                    construction, or should I just stop beating the horse?
                    Kuchinaoshi is so darned similar to the modern writing that it
                    makes no difference, but if it just isn't going to work - then it just
                    isn't going to work.

                    I'm stubborn, but I'm trying not to go overboard. (I know, too late)

                    I really appreciate your putting up with my lack of education here.

                    By the bye, is there any way to _get_ any of your Pennsic class
                    pamphlets outside of going to Pennsic? I'm going through all the
                    old posts here, and there was some mention of making pdf files
                    of some of them, but then there was a great copyright debate. If
                    there is a way to get reliable sca pertinant info, I would be
                    ecstatic.

                    I live in a low population area in Kansas (just about anywhere)
                    and my local library laughs at me when I mention inter-library
                    loan. I haven't the money to order from Amazon (who says your
                    name book is unavailable right now anyway...) So my means of
                    accquiring more research materials other than the internet is
                    kinda....dead.

                    Anyway, thanks for helping;
                    -Jess
                  • Solveig
                    Noble Cousin! ... Sasako is older but questionable. Yoshiko is more recent, but safer. ... Greetings from Solveig! I am planning on collecting my various
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 7, 2004
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                      Noble Cousin!

                      >You're reccommending Sasako as the best bet, are the other
                      >mentions about the plant in qestion (senbuku, sanshishi,
                      >kagaribisau, kuchinaoshi, senboku) suitable at all for name
                      >construction, or should I just stop beating the horse?
                      >Kuchinaoshi is so darned similar to the modern writing that it
                      >makes no difference, but if it just isn't going to work - then it just
                      >isn't going to work.

                      Sasako is older but questionable. Yoshiko is more recent, but safer.

                      >By the bye, is there any way to _get_ any of your Pennsic class
                      >pamphlets outside of going to Pennsic? I'm going through all the
                      >old posts here, and there was some mention of making pdf files
                      >of some of them, but then there was a great copyright debate. If
                      >there is a way to get reliable sca pertinant info, I would be
                      >ecstatic.

                      Greetings from Solveig! I am planning on collecting my various handouts
                      together and publishing them. I suppose that I will call this collection
                      the "leaflet" since my name thing is my "pamphlet". I promiss that the
                      "leaflet" will be shorter ane less expensive than the "pamphlet". The
                      title is "Bunka" and it already has an ISBN number and is mostly written.
                      I was going to work on it during the school year, but nothing got done.
                      I will try to do better this Summer.

                      >I live in a low population area in Kansas (just about anywhere)
                      >and my local library laughs at me when I mention inter-library
                      >loan. I haven't the money to order from Amazon (who says your
                      >name book is unavailable right now anyway...) So my means of
                      >accquiring more research materials other than the internet is
                      >kinda....dead.

                      I've been to Kansas or was it Nebraska? I understand what you mean.
                      --

                      Your Humble Servant
                      Solveig Throndardottir
                      Amateur Scholar

                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    • Solveig
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The name business gets complicated really fast. An artsy fartsy Japanese (and all proper kuge and buke are artsy
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 10, 2004
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig!

                        >This is what happens when I only have a couple of old pamplets
                        >to go by. I'm embarrased at the unintentional mistake.
                        >What _would_ a nickname formed from a regular name look
                        >like? Are there any specific conventions to making them?

                        The name business gets complicated really fast. An artsy fartsy Japanese
                        (and all proper kuge and buke are artsy fartsy) will accumulate a whole
                        collection of names associated with various arts and all sorts of other
                        stuff. For that matter, you get a new name after your dead.

                        >I'm assuming from the above that the word got chopped up
                        >further than I'd though it was and is now ku.chi/shi.na.shi.

                        No. As I wrote earlier. In at least two forms it is written with only two
                        kanji the second one of which is SHI/ko. In one case the kunyomi would be
                        Yoshiko. Which is a real Japanese woman's name.

                        >Am I to understand that the first and last shi are the same, and
                        >the kanji for na is the one for 'name' which is also used as the
                        >name ender 'ko'?

                        You can not always look to "chop things up" the way you are trying to.
                        For example, "ebi" (shrimp) is written as an ideographic combination.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                        | the trash by my email filters. |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      • Solveig
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! There comes a time when it is best to simply stop being stubborn. If you beat on it enough with a crowbar, you might be
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 10, 2004
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig! There comes a time when it is best to simply
                          stop being stubborn. If you beat on it enough with a crowbar, you might
                          be able to make Jasmine work, but it really isn't doing very well for
                          you.

                          >I know it's a long name, I was figuring on making a nickname
                          >based on it, like O-nashi, or Kuchi-me. It's one of those things I
                          >haven't worked out yet. That way, I'd have my 'official' name, and
                          >then the one everyone calls me by in informal situations.

                          THOSE ARE NOT NICKNAMES! -me endings were used to form real live names.

                          >I don't have much to go on for the naming practices of the time. In
                          >fact, the only book(s) I have that can guide me is the Tale of
                          >Genji, which contains many feminine names of three to four
                          >sylables, with few names having an official 'ending'.
                          >I realize that these are mostly 'character' names, even in period,
                          >but people have been named after characters in literature for
                          >about as long as there has been literature to name kids after. ;-)

                          A lot of the stuff that you encounter in Genji Monogatari ARE NOT NAMES.
                          You have to try to understand that Japanese avoid using names.

                          >I did find a different jasmine related name, Sokei (jasminum
                          >officinale) - and I may end up using this instead, but I kind of like
                          >Kuchinashi, long as it is.

                          Kuchinashi works much better as a nickname than it does as a name. Those
                          ladies that you are reading about in Genji Monogatari are often referred
                          to by nicknames based upon the particular chamber they lived in or worked
                          in and NOT by their names.

                          I wrote this last night while I was tired and grumpy, but I am at a loss
                          as to how to srpuce it up. So, I am sending it out anyway. Please understand
                          that I very much want you to have a name which you like and which you will
                          continue to like. I also hope that you will find a name which will be a good
                          recreation of pre-modern Japan.
                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                        • Ii Saburou
                          ... I think that there are several points of miscommunication here. I m not exactly up to date on women s names (or, in this case, a nickname), but let me see
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 11, 2004
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                            On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Solveig wrote:

                            > >I'm assuming from the above that the word got chopped up
                            > >further than I'd though it was and is now ku.chi/shi.na.shi.
                            >
                            > No. As I wrote earlier. In at least two forms it is written with only two
                            > kanji the second one of which is SHI/ko. In one case the kunyomi would be
                            > Yoshiko. Which is a real Japanese woman's name.

                            I think that there are several points of miscommunication here. I'm not
                            exactly up to date on women's names (or, in this case, a nickname), but
                            let me see if I understand.

                            Jess, you are looking for a name OR a nickname to use at events. You took
                            the translation of you first name (Jasmine) and looked for a similar
                            flower in Japan. You found a member of the gardenia family, Kuchinashi.

                            Using this as a nickname you would have people calling you "Kuchinashi no
                            hime" [Lady of the Kuchinashi], implying a poetic connection with
                            Kuchinashi for some reason (BTW, 'Kuchinashi' is a homophone for 'no
                            mouth', and I've just recently seen it used that way as part of a story,
                            but I digress...).

                            Solveig-dono brought up the fact that one of the period kanji readings she
                            has seen includes the kanji for child, 'ko'. This is sometimes read as
                            'shi', too. Ah, and the first kanji, according to Nelson's, is 'SHI', it
                            means 'gardenia', and it is only used as the starting kanji in
                            'KUCHINASHI'.

                            Wait, you say, but where is 'SHI'? When 'SHI' and 'KO' are used together,
                            it is read 'KUCHINASHI'. Welcome to the wonderful world of Japanese
                            names. There is another way to write it, according to Jim Breen's
                            Dictionary, that adds 'YAMA' (Mountain) to the beginning and yet is
                            pronounced the same.

                            I do find the first kanji (which, btw, is 2272 in Nelson's Second Revised
                            Edition of "The Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary").

                            Jim Breen's WWWJDIC has just the first kanji 'Kuchinashi' as a family
                            name, and then the three kanji ('YAMA' + 'SHI' + 'KO' = 'Kuchinashi') as a
                            given name, but there is no evidence as to whether or not these are modern
                            names or not.

                            Now, if you want to go down the route of an actual name, you need to look
                            at different constructions, and it would be problematic to take
                            'Kuchinashi' apart and try to shove it into a woman's name. Solveig was
                            pointing out several name elements. Let me see if I can find some
                            examples....

                            (Note: these are coming from a chart in the back of a piece of historical
                            fiction set in Heian Japan. As such, I treat it as all jidai-geki and
                            recommend you look up a more solid historical basis. These are the
                            consorts of Emperor Murakami (946-967) [Crown Prince Nariakira, I believe])

                            Yasuiko - daughter of Uaijin [Minister of the Right] no Fujiwara no
                            Morosuke and Fujiwara no Moriko [Seiko?]

                            Nobuko - daughter of Kanpaku [Chancellor] no Fujiwara no Saneyori and
                            Fujiwara no Tokihira (no) hime [? daughter of Fujiwara Tokihira?]

                            Yoshiko - daughter of Shigeaki-Shinnou [Prince Shigeaki. Alt.: Juumei,
                            Shigetomo, Dyunmyon, Atsuharu, shigeharu, Shigemasa] and Fujiwara no
                            Noriko [alt. Hiroko, Kanko] (Tadahira (no) hime [daughter of Tadahira?])

                            Shouko - daughter of Yoaki[?]-Shinnou [Prince Yoaki?] and Udaijin no
                            Fujiwara no Sadakata (no) hime [daughter of Minister of the Right Fujiwara
                            Sadakata]

                            Yoshiko [different kanji] - daughter of Sadaijin [Minister of the Left] no
                            Fujiwara no Morotada and Udaijin no Fujiwara no Sadakata (no) hime
                            [daughter of the Minister of Right, Fujiwara Sadakata]

                            Kazuko - daughter of Chuunagon [Middle Counselor] no Minamoto no
                            (Yutakaaki?--unclear how to read these two kanji: Yutaka + MEI/Aki)

                            Nagako - daughter of Chuunagon [Middle Counselor] no Fujiwara no Tomonari

                            Sukehime - daughter of Dainagon, Minbu no Kyou [Great Counselor and
                            Minister of Popular Affairs] no Fujiwara no Motokata

                            Masahime - daughter of Fujiwara no Arihira

                            A Fujiwara - daughter of Sangi [Royal Advisor] no Fujiwara no
                            (Arisuke?--unclear how to read these two kanji: YUU/Ari + SOU/Ai/[-suke])

                            Nariko - daughter of Fujiwara no Morosuke and Fujiwara no Moriko [Same
                            mother as Empress Yasuko]


                            Notice all of the 'Ko' endings on female names? 'Hime' is also popular.

                            -Ii
                          • Solveig
                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Ii dono noted the prevalence of -ko names and -hime names. ... As I mentioned earlier, -hime and -me names are older
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig!

                              Ii dono noted the prevalence of -ko names and -hime names.

                              >Notice all of the 'Ko' endings on female names? 'Hime' is also popular.

                              As I mentioned earlier, -hime and -me names are older style and go back
                              to the Nara period. -ko names are sort of new fangled and trendy during
                              the Heian period. Also, I did find Yoshiko which is written with the
                              same kanji used to write one of the variants of kuchinashi. I mentioned
                              that several days ago. That is the closest you are likely to come to
                              having a real Japanese name which is analogous to Jasmine.

                              As for nicknames. Ii-dono came up with an excellent very Heian-jidai
                              approach.
                              --

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
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                            • Deborah K. Strub
                              Greetings! I continue to research Japanese seals/kao for the purpose of signing official Baronial scrolls and have not been able to find anything on how to
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                Greetings!

                                I continue to research Japanese seals/kao for the purpose of signing
                                official Baronial scrolls and have not been able to find anything on how to
                                design one's kao. I can find things discussing them but nothing (so far)
                                about how to do your own. Does anybody have any ideas or leads?

                                YIS,

                                Murakami Tsuruko
                                Baroness of Dragon's Laire, Kingdom of An Tir
                                list lurker
                              • Elaine Koogler
                                I m not sure about Japanese seals, but in China, the seals usually consisted of one s name written in great seal characters...we had a seal carved for Phillip
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                  I'm not sure about Japanese seals, but in China, the seals usually
                                  consisted of one's name written in great seal characters...we had a seal
                                  carved for Phillip in Hong Kong a number of years back and the carver
                                  converted his name into characters that sounded like Phillip's name,
                                  thence into great seal characters. I also know that historically, the
                                  great seal characters were used to carve seals, and these seals were
                                  used to seal documents, including an indication of ownership of
                                  scrolls. It's really handy because this information on a painting or
                                  manuscript can be used to establish its provenance. As I indicated, I'm
                                  not sure that this practice was followed in Japan, though it would be
                                  logical as the Chinese characters (kanji) were used in Japan until
                                  recently. And I also know that the seals on Japanese paintings, used
                                  for the same purpose, closely resemble the ones from China.

                                  Kiri

                                  Deborah K. Strub wrote:

                                  > Greetings!
                                  >
                                  > I continue to research Japanese seals/kao for the purpose of signing
                                  > official Baronial scrolls and have not been able to find anything on
                                  > how to
                                  > design one's kao. I can find things discussing them but nothing (so far)
                                  > about how to do your own. Does anybody have any ideas or leads?
                                  >
                                  > YIS,
                                  >
                                  > Murakami Tsuruko
                                  > Baroness of Dragon's Laire, Kingdom of An Tir
                                  > list lurker
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Deborah K. Strub
                                  Greetings, Thank you for the information. It fits pretty closely with what I ve been able to find out so far. I ve found out there are five different types of
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                    Greetings,

                                    Thank you for the information. It fits pretty closely with what I've been
                                    able to find out so far.
                                    I've found out there are five different types of script and if I remember
                                    correctly the seal script (or the art of seal script) is called tenkoku. I
                                    think there was another one used that was somewhat less formal, but I don't
                                    remember what it's called. The Japanese adopted tenkoku for use on official
                                    documents similar to how the Chinese used it. Some time ago I blundered
                                    across a site on the internet that had some examples of shogun's kao but I
                                    seem to have lost the web addy.
                                    I seem to remember some discussion on this list a while ago where someone
                                    said a kao signature would be more appropriate to Japanese persona within
                                    the SCA time period. I'm having a heck of a time finding detailed
                                    information in English on this subject. >sigh< :(

                                    YIS,

                                    Tsuruko

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Elaine Koogler [mailto:ekoogler1@...]
                                    Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 3:41 PM
                                    To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Designing Kao (Kaou)


                                    I'm not sure about Japanese seals, but in China, the seals usually
                                    consisted of one's name written in great seal characters...we had a seal
                                    carved for Phillip in Hong Kong a number of years back and the carver
                                    converted his name into characters that sounded like Phillip's name,
                                    thence into great seal characters. I also know that historically, the
                                    great seal characters were used to carve seals, and these seals were
                                    used to seal documents, including an indication of ownership of
                                    scrolls. It's really handy because this information on a painting or
                                    manuscript can be used to establish its provenance. As I indicated, I'm
                                    not sure that this practice was followed in Japan, though it would be
                                    logical as the Chinese characters (kanji) were used in Japan until
                                    recently. And I also know that the seals on Japanese paintings, used
                                    for the same purpose, closely resemble the ones from China.

                                    Kiri

                                    Deborah K. Strub wrote:

                                    > Greetings!
                                    >
                                    > I continue to research Japanese seals/kao for the purpose of signing
                                    > official Baronial scrolls and have not been able to find anything on
                                    > how to
                                    > design one's kao. I can find things discussing them but nothing (so far)
                                    > about how to do your own. Does anybody have any ideas or leads?
                                    >
                                    > YIS,
                                    >
                                    > Murakami Tsuruko
                                    > Baroness of Dragon's Laire, Kingdom of An Tir
                                    > list lurker
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                    > ADVERTISEMENT
                                    >
                                    <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1292ohgu5/M=295920.5052780.6180400.4804107/D=gr
                                    oups/S=1705767503:HM/EXP=1087253884/A=2161810/R=0/SIG=128gjrj9f/*http://visi
                                    tors4.thehistorychannelclub.com/home.asp?promotion=9I4YATX1>
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                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                    >
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                                    knowledge and wisdom to curiosity.
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                                  • Ii Saburou
                                    Soapstone or other soft rock. Wood might work, but stone would seem to be the element of choice (wood only lasts so long: about 80 printings on average was
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                      Soapstone or other soft rock. Wood might work, but stone would seem to be
                                      the element of choice (wood only lasts so long: about 80 printings on
                                      average was what I once heard, but that will no doubt change with the wood
                                      used).

                                      If you want red with white lines:
                                      Draw your design on the soapstone
                                      Chisel out (scrape out?) the areas you just drew

                                      If you want white with red lines:
                                      Draw your design on the soapstone
                                      Chisel out the areas you didn't draw on.

                                      The types of characters that could be used vary. They could be clear, but
                                      seem to more often be more artistic and abstract, so as to make them
                                      individual. The only suggestion I would have, there, is to take a look at
                                      others and see what was done.

                                      -Ii

                                      On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Deborah K. Strub wrote:

                                      > Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:57:51 -0700
                                      > From: Deborah K. Strub <tsuruko@...>
                                      > Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                      > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [SCA-JML] Designing Kao (Kaou)
                                      >
                                      > Greetings!
                                      >
                                      > I continue to research Japanese seals/kao for the purpose of signing
                                      > official Baronial scrolls and have not been able to find anything on how to
                                      > design one's kao. I can find things discussing them but nothing (so far)
                                      > about how to do your own. Does anybody have any ideas or leads?
                                      >
                                      > YIS,
                                      >
                                      > Murakami Tsuruko
                                      > Baroness of Dragon's Laire, Kingdom of An Tir
                                      > list lurker
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Ii Saburou
                                      ... Kao seem to be used for artwork. For official things I ve also seen quite a bit of evidence for fingerprints or handprints, sometimes put over the name
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                        On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Deborah K. Strub wrote:

                                        > I seem to remember some discussion on this list a while ago where someone
                                        > said a kao signature would be more appropriate to Japanese persona within
                                        > the SCA time period. I'm having a heck of a time finding detailed
                                        > information in English on this subject. >sigh< :(

                                        Kao seem to be used for artwork. For official things I've also seen quite
                                        a bit of evidence for fingerprints or handprints, sometimes put over the
                                        name brushed on (sealing the name). Another use is to use them on parts
                                        of a scroll where the papers join together so that it can be shown that
                                        part A and B go together.

                                        Have you looked for 'inkan' as well as 'kao'?

                                        -Ii
                                      • Barbara Nostrand
                                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Apparently, Tanko ran an article about kao several years ago which was later translated into English and printed in the
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                          Noble Cousin!

                                          Greetings from Solveig! Apparently, Tanko ran an article about kao several
                                          years ago which was later translated into English and printed in the journal
                                          of the Green Society. A rather nice fellow sent me a copy a wile back.
                                          Regardless, there are a number of places where you can find reporductions
                                          of kao.

                                          However, I do not recommend that you try to get the royalty to adopt kao.
                                          Rather, I suggest that you carve inkan for them and have them use those.

                                          There is a very brief discussion of kao in my handout on Japanese calligraphy.

                                          Many different materials can and have been used to make inkan. These include
                                          metal, ivory, bone, rock, and wood. Wood actually lasts remarkably long.

                                          While there are famous examples of handprints on documnets and thumbprints
                                          sometimes substitute for inkan in contemporary Japan, there is a lot of
                                          evidence for using kao in official works. As for art work, when an artist
                                          wants to take special responsibility for the artwork, then they affix their
                                          kao. Otherwise, you will see a seal impression or a simple written signature.
                                          Basically, having a kao on a piece of art is a big deal. Such works typically
                                          cost more than those with other forms of authentication.
                                          --

                                          Your Humble Servant
                                          Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Amateur Scholar

                                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                                        • Maria
                                          ... Some inkan (kao) = seal sources in English: Earnshaw, Christopher J. _Sho: Japanese Calligraphy. An In-depth Introduction to the Art of Writing
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                            Ii Saburou wrote:

                                            > On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Deborah K. Strub wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > I seem to remember some discussion on this list a while ago
                                            > where someone
                                            > > said a kao signature would be more appropriate to Japanese persona
                                            > within
                                            > > the SCA time period. I'm having a heck of a time finding detailed
                                            > > information in English on this subject. >sigh< :(
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Have you looked for 'inkan' as well as 'kao'?
                                            >

                                            Some inkan (kao) = seal sources in English:

                                            Earnshaw, Christopher J. _Sho: Japanese Calligraphy. An In-depth
                                            Introduction to the Art of Writing Characters_ (Rutland, Vermont;
                                            Charles E. Tuttle Company, 1988) ISBN 0-8048-1568-2. pp 26-32. Very
                                            exact instructions on how to do it. Book is (I believe) still in print
                                            and should be widely available.

                                            Long, Jean. _The Art of Chinese Calligraphy_ (Mineola, New York; Dover
                                            Publications, 1987.) ISBN 0-486-41739-5. pp. 53-64. Also in print,
                                            widely available. Not instructions, but discusses the use of the seal
                                            and the color variations (mainly from the Chinese perspective).

                                            Nukata, Yujiro. _The Art of Japanese Calligraphy_ (New York; John
                                            Weatherhill, Inc. 1973--the version I have published in 1983). ISBN
                                            0-8348-1013-1. pp. 29-50. Thorough discussion of Tensho (seal script).
                                            Includes several pictures of period and post-period examples of the
                                            script. Book is out of print but could possibly be found via
                                            inter-library loan.

                                            Some of my other calligraphy books mention seal-carving, but don't go
                                            into great detail. Earnshaw is your best bet, with Nukata as a supplement.

                                            Hope this helps.

                                            Writing from my home overlooking the Great River.

                                            Ki no Torahime

                                            Riverwatch, Calontir

                                            (No, I didn't get to go to Lilies! ;_; )
                                          • Solveig
                                            Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Unfortunately, I can not seem to find my book on inkan carving at the moment. Here is a book which may prove useful to
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jun 14, 2004
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                                              Noble Cousins!

                                              Greetings from Solveig! Unfortunately, I can not seem to find my book on
                                              inkan carving at the moment. Here is a book which may prove useful to people:

                                              Title: Inkan Nyuumon
                                              Publisher: Ho'ikusha
                                              ISBN: 4-58650-805-1
                                              Size: 151 p 15 x 11 (cm)

                                              Here is a book which claims that it will have you complete an inkan in 30
                                              minutes:

                                              Title: 30 pun de dekiru! Ishi no Hanko koza
                                              ISBN: 4-938249-93-6

                                              This is a book which is likely to be the one that I have. Regardless, it
                                              should be interesting:

                                              Title: Tenkoku no Geijutsu
                                              Publisher: Shogakukan
                                              Size: 246 pÅ@19 x 13 (cm)
                                              ISBN: 4-09-387040-3 ; (1988/07)
                                              --

                                              Your Humble Servant
                                              Solveig Throndardottir
                                              Amateur Scholar

                                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                              | the trash by my email filters. |
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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Solveig
                                              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! And just to throw in a dash more confusion to this whole business about Japanese names. In paleo-Japanese -ko is a
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Apr 19, 2005
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                                                Noble Cousin!

                                                Greetings from Solveig! And just to throw in a dash more confusion to
                                                this whole business about Japanese names. In paleo-Japanese -ko is a
                                                masculine ending while -me is a feminine ending. You still see this
                                                in word pairs like musuko and musume. Thus, if you go far enough
                                                back, the -ko names are masculine names, but by the mid-Nara period,
                                                -ko was a solidly feminine ending. The kanji used to write -ko is
                                                also read as SHI in Japanese or ZI in Chinese. We encounter it as a
                                                name final in the names of Chinese scholars where it roughly
                                                translates to "Master".
                                                --

                                                Your Humble Servant
                                                Solveig Throndardottir
                                                Amateur Scholar

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                                              • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                                ... It should be noted that the same ko that Solveig-hime is discussing here, today, at least, translates as child in Japanese. I ve always wondered about
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Apr 21, 2005
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                                                  On 4/20/05, Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                                  > Noble Cousin!
                                                  >
                                                  > Greetings from Solveig! And just to throw in a dash more confusion to
                                                  > this whole business about Japanese names. In paleo-Japanese -ko is a
                                                  > masculine ending while -me is a feminine ending. You still see this
                                                  > in word pairs like musuko and musume. Thus, if you go far enough
                                                  > back, the -ko names are masculine names, but by the mid-Nara period,
                                                  > -ko was a solidly feminine ending. The kanji used to write -ko is
                                                  > also read as SHI in Japanese or ZI in Chinese. We encounter it as a
                                                  > name final in the names of Chinese scholars where it roughly
                                                  > translates to "Master".

                                                  It should be noted that the same 'ko' that Solveig-hime is discussing
                                                  here, today, at least, translates as 'child' in Japanese. I've always
                                                  wondered about the implications there, but that may account for the
                                                  difference during the mid-Nara period.

                                                  -Ii
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