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help with persona - two questions

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  • Jess
    I m hoping someone could help me verify if the name I ve chosen for my persona is actually historically correct. I tried to create a name that mirrored parts
    Message 1 of 29 , May 27, 2004
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      I'm hoping someone could help me verify if the name I've chosen
      for my persona is actually historically correct. I tried to create a
      name that mirrored parts of my english name.

      Hasuzawa Kuchinashi

      Optional surnames on my list are Hasugawa and Hasumoto. I'm
      leaning for zawa because it's 'ON' reading goes well with the
      'ON' for lotus - Rentaku sounds better than Renhon or Rensen to
      me.

      My intended device has a lotus on it, and my first name in
      english translates to jasmine - and kuchinashi is the closest
      match. I understand there is some pun about being unable to
      speak, but I don't understand what it has to do with the cape
      jasmine flower. Anyone have an idea?

      Second problem:
      I'm looking for period info on miko and nuns. I think I'd like to do
      something of the sort but it depends on what my persona would
      then be allowed to do. No point in having a persona that can't be
      seen. ;-)
      I'm having a hard time finding any documentation on what they
      wore in period, and what each side actually _did_. I can't go off of
      modern versions, since they aren't the same.

      Anyway, any help would be great! I'm starting to hit my head
      against the monitor, and that's not good for the computer...

      Thanks,
      Jess
    • Jess
      I know people are busy, and don t always have time to answer what must be silly newbie-to-nipponese persona questions, but I really was hoping for a response
      Message 2 of 29 , May 30, 2004
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        I know people are busy, and don't always have time to answer
        what must be silly newbie-to-nipponese persona questions, but
        I really was hoping for a response of some kind.

        I'm going to Lillies next week, and was hoping to have gotten a
        better idea whether my chosen name would work before then.
        I don't want to go running around calling myself something, only
        to have to change it later.... that's embarrassing. I also don't want
        to have to run around all week going, 'weeell, I don't have a name
        yet, but this is what I'm doing...' Done that, too much explaining.

        Anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm whining - I really wasn't
        expecting a response right away... but my question has now
        been buried by other new posts that have already been
        responded to, quite often sometimes.

        I'm sorry, I shouldn't be so impatient
        Jess
      • Ii Saburou
        If you don t see an answer, check the archives. Also, it helps to restate your post: you mention the question but I didn t actually see the question(s). That
        Message 3 of 29 , May 30, 2004
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          If you don't see an answer, check the archives.

          Also, it helps to restate your post: you mention the question but I didn't
          actually see the question(s).

          That said, check the archives for 'names' and you should find quite a bit.
          Remember that it searches in sections, so if it comes up blank, there
          should be a 'next page' that you can try, which will search another subset
          of the records (usually starts with the most recent ones).

          Also, check out http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/ for more naming information.
          Especially read the part in the Miscellany on names that talks about
          family names, zokumyo (or yobina), and nanori.

          -Ii

          On Mon, 31 May 2004, Jess wrote:

          > Anyway, I don't want to sound like I'm whining - I really wasn't
          > expecting a response right away... but my question has now
          > been buried by other new posts that have already been
          > responded to, quite often sometimes.
          >
          > I'm sorry, I shouldn't be so impatient
          > Jess
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Solveig
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... It depends on what period you are from and what sort of person you want to be. If you are from the Heian period, then
          Message 4 of 29 , May 31, 2004
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            >I'm hoping someone could help me verify if the name I've chosen
            >for my persona is actually historically correct. I tried to create a
            >name that mirrored parts of my english name.
            >
            >Hasuzawa Kuchinashi

            It depends on what period you are from and what sort of person you want
            to be. If you are from the Heian period, then you should be using an uji
            name and not a family name. Basically, men used family names and women
            used uji names. At least that is what big name scholars have been writing
            recently. Later on, most likely by the middle of the Kamakura period, you
            would be using a family name. Hasuzawa is not, to the best of my knowledge,
            the name of an uji. Yes. Hasuzawa can be written as <lotus>+<swamp>. It is
            not a particularly common name in Japan as it is not in the name dictionary
            of my SHARP PA 8500. Nor does it appear as a place name in Concise Nihon
            Chimei Jiten. ISBN 4-385-15332-9. This means that you have to depend
            upon arguing that it is a valid construction. CNCJ does list Hasu'ike
            as a place
            name and I really can not think of anything unsettling about Hasuzawa as a
            place name, so I suppose that it is acceptable as a constructed family name.

            Basically, you can successfully argue for Hasuzawa for later periods, but
            you are less likely to be doing a good job of recreation for earlier periods.
            The problem for you is that Japanese women progressively loose
            independence throughout the middle ages. This is why many Japanese
            women and female
            members of the SCA tend to like the Heian period.

            >Optional surnames on my list are Hasugawa and Hasumoto. I'm
            >leaning for zawa because it's 'ON' reading goes well with the
            >'ON' for lotus - Rentaku sounds better than Renhon or Rensen to
            >me.

            Why oh why are you worrying about the ON reading unless you are planning
            on constructing a name in religion which is an entirely separate task?
            You might be interested in the ON reading if you are early historical period
            which, as I mentioned earlier, tends to exclude constructed family names.

            >My intended device has a lotus on it, and my first name in
            >english translates to jasmine - and kuchinashi is the closest
            >match. I understand there is some pun about being unable to
            >speak, but I don't understand what it has to do with the cape
            >jasmine flower. Anyone have an idea?

            Please don't try to translate Jasmine as "Kushinashi" is not likely to
            work well as a Japanese personal name as it is just too long to have one
            of the name forming endings added to it.

            >Second problem:
            >I'm looking for period info on miko and nuns. I think I'd like to do
            >something of the sort but it depends on what my persona would
            >then be allowed to do. No point in having a persona that can't be
            >seen. ;-)

            You get to be seen.

            >I'm having a hard time finding any documentation on what they
            >wore in period, and what each side actually _did_. I can't go off of
            >modern versions, since they aren't the same.

            Have you checked out the Costume Museum web site? It has more pictures
            than just about any other single place.
            --

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
            | the trash by my email filters. |
            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          • Jess
            ... person you want to be. I probably should have listed that first, huh. Oops. Attempting for early to mid Kamakura, and I m still not entirely sure what sort
            Message 5 of 29 , May 31, 2004
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...>
              wrote:

              > It depends on what period you are from and what sort of
              person you want to be.

              I probably should have listed that first, huh. Oops.
              Attempting for early to mid Kamakura, and I'm still not entirely
              sure what sort of person I'm trying to protray. Probably originally
              from a standard minor nobility house, maybe one with military
              crossovers, so I can wear the simpler outfits of the period.

              >
              > Why oh why are you worrying about the ON reading unless you
              are planning on constructing a name in religion which is an
              entirely separate task?
              >

              Well, yeah, I was hoping for being able to use the same kanji if
              the religious persona works out - but I'll admit to ignorance on
              accomplishing that.


              > Please don't try to translate Jasmine as "Kushinashi" is not
              likely to work well as a Japanese personal name as it is just too
              long to have one of the name forming endings added to it.
              >

              Ah, well - back to the drawing board. I was just hoping for
              something similar to my mundane name, even if just in
              meaning. I suppose I should go for something shorter, then?

              I live near a very small Shire, with no access to your helpful
              books, which makes much reasearch a long process. I know
              that there are supposed to be proper endings for personal
              names, but not what the period female endings actually are.

              > Have you checked out the Costume Museum web site? It has
              more pictures
              > than just about any other single place.

              Yes! Wonderful pictures! The English site doesn't have much on
              female religious types, but I don't really know what I'm looking
              for. I'm assuming from Tale of Genji (which I need to re-read
              again) that upper-class nuns mainly wore a simpler version (or
              just the same) of what they normally wore, and just cut their hair
              shorter to symbolize religious intent. That's only one 'class' of
              nun, though. I've read bits about the nuns that were essentially
              prostitutes for their order, that tagged along with pilgramages -
              that's not what I'm looking for, but an example that I understand
              there are more 'types' of nun than what I've read.

              I'm also assuming that the shinto priestesses pretty much wore
              what they do today - the priest pic at the museum site looked
              similar enough to make me think this, anyway.

              I hate assuming, it makes for some awful mistakes. That's why
              I'm asking questions from people who have access to better
              research materials than I do.

              Thank you for your help so far!
              -Jess (in search of names)
            • Jennifer Oaks
              ... My persona name is Keiaiji no Nyudo Nyodai. I m fairly new to being a Japanese persona and have been developing the persona of a Buddhist nun. Pretty
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 2, 2004
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jess" <skmt999@y...> wrote:

                >
                > Yes! Wonderful pictures! The English site doesn't have much on
                > female religious types, but I don't really know what I'm looking
                > for. I'm assuming from Tale of Genji (which I need to re-read
                > again) that upper-class nuns mainly wore a simpler version (or
                > just the same) of what they normally wore, and just cut their hair
                > shorter to symbolize religious intent. That's only one 'class' of
                > nun, though. I've read bits about the nuns that were essentially
                > prostitutes for their order, that tagged along with pilgramages -
                > that's not what I'm looking for, but an example that I understand
                > there are more 'types' of nun than what I've read.
                >
                > Greetings,
                My persona name is Keiaiji no Nyudo Nyodai. I'm fairly new to being
                a Japanese persona and have been developing the persona of a
                Buddhist nun. Pretty much I've been taking cues from my friend
                Matsuyamaji Mokurai, who also is a Buddhist monastic persona. A
                website I've found helpful is the Institute for Medieval Japanese
                Studies. There's a lot of info there on Mugai Nyodai, who founded
                Keiaiji Temple, from which I derive my name. As a monastic, if you
                want to go that route, your name will likely reflect that. My name
                means "novice nun of Keiaiji temple". There's a picture of me on my
                membership page. Basically when I'm in Buddhist attire I wear a
                black kosode over white hakama and a white kosode underneath--
                simmilar to what Soto Zen nuns still wear today. I have short
                reddish hair, so sometimes I wear a head covering. There's a
                picture on the Costume Museum site, it may be the Japanese version,
                of a monk with attire similar to what I'm describing. Solveig or
                someone else on the list had suggested it to me, I'll see if I can
                find it back in the archives to reference it for you. I've also
                shown up to events in Christian garb, which is basically Momoyama
                period dress with a wooden cross around my neck. I'm still
                developing my persona. I'm not really locked in yet to one form of
                Buddhism or another. Mugai Nyodai, who founded my namesake temple,
                was Rinzai Zen, however, personally, I'm intrigued by Pure Land and
                Amida Buddha.
                Long winded way of saying hello, keep up the good work, and check
                out the Institute for Medieval Japanese Studies and also Mokurai's
                Temple--a lot of good info there on being a monastic (albeit from
                the perspective of a monk rather than a nun, but still good).

                Best of luck,
                Keiaiji no Nyudo Nyodai
              • Jennifer Oaks
                ... wrote: There s a ... version, ... I found the picture I was referring to on the English version of the site, under the Muromachi/Kamakura era, it is the
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 2, 2004
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                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Jennifer Oaks" <jennmoaks@m...>
                  wrote:
                  There's a
                  > picture on the Costume Museum site, it may be the Japanese
                  version,
                  > of a monk with attire similar to what I'm describing. Solveig or
                  > someone else on the list had suggested it to me, I'll see if I can
                  > find it back in the archives to reference it for you.
                  >
                  I found the picture I was referring to on the English version of the
                  site, under the Muromachi/Kamakura era, it is the Noh costume for
                  the character of the Buddhist monk (about halfway down the list).
                  Even though it's a theater costume, whoever referred it to me said
                  it would work as a guide.

                  Keiaiji no Nyudo Nyodai
                • Jess
                  Hello, and thanks! Long-winded is fine, gets more info accross, and I don t mind wading. ;-) I ve been to both sites, and I really like Mokurai s Temple - nice
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 4, 2004
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                    Hello, and thanks! Long-winded is fine, gets more info accross,
                    and I don't mind wading. ;-)
                    I've been to both sites, and I really like Mokurai's Temple - nice
                    pics - but I find the Institue hard to navigate. I'm sure there is
                    plenty of material there that I'm just not seeing. :-(

                    -Jess

                    > Long winded way of saying hello, keep up the good work, and
                    check
                    > out the Institute for Medieval Japanese Studies and also
                    Mokurai's
                    > Temple--a lot of good info there on being a monastic (albeit
                    from
                    > the perspective of a monk rather than a nun, but still good).
                    >
                    > Best of luck,
                    > Keiaiji no Nyudo Nyodai
                  • Jess
                    ... ... likely to ... to have one ... Just to make sure we re on the same wavelengh, I do want to say that I wasn t translating jasmine as kuchinashi -
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 4, 2004
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                      > >Hasuzawa Kuchinashi
                      >
                      <snip>
                      >
                      > Please don't try to translate Jasmine as "Kushinashi" is not
                      likely to
                      > work well as a Japanese personal name as it is just too long
                      to have one
                      > of the name forming endings added to it.

                      Just to make sure we're on the same wavelengh, I do want to
                      say that I wasn't translating jasmine as kuchinashi - I did my
                      homework on this one.

                      I started out by looking for a japanese trasnlation to Jasmine, but
                      found little. Then I started looking for actual plant names, not just
                      dictionary translations, and I found kuchinashi.

                      I have several resources which list kuchinashi as = Gardenia,
                      and when I looked up the Japanese gardenia, I found that it's
                      scientific name is in the jasmine family. Some sites have
                      different jasmine plants listed, so I figure it must be a mixture of
                      regional differences and human error. I don't really care, what
                      interests me is that it's somewhat related. I don't mind being
                      called 'gardenia'.

                      In my Japanese/English dictionary, the entry for kuchinashi has
                      no kanji, it is written out in hiragana - which is fine for a woman's
                      name, as far as I understand. I didn't put two kanji together to
                      create this, and I'm not trying for a perfect translation. Indeed, I'm
                      not really after a translation at all, just 'something similar'.

                      My copy of Japanese Design Motifs has a mon using kuchinashi,
                      and the contents lists it as 'cape jasmine'. Like I said though, I
                      really don't care if it's supposed to be a variety of jasmine or a
                      gardenia, I was just looking for something close that I liked the
                      sound of. I do have to live with whatever I choose, and answer to
                      it. ;-)

                      I know it's a long name, I was figuring on making a nickname
                      based on it, like O-nashi, or Kuchi-me. It's one of those things I
                      haven't worked out yet. That way, I'd have my 'official' name, and
                      then the one everyone calls me by in informal situations.

                      I don't have much to go on for the naming practices of the time. In
                      fact, the only book(s) I have that can guide me is the Tale of
                      Genji, which contains many feminine names of three to four
                      sylables, with few names having an official 'ending'.
                      I realize that these are mostly 'character' names, even in period,
                      but people have been named after characters in literature for
                      about as long as there has been literature to name kids after. ;-)

                      My main rationalization on kuchinashi being acceptable was
                      remembering Lady Asagao - meaning both the flower Morning
                      Glory, and 'morning face'.

                      I know this is a pretty long blog, just to clear things up - but I was
                      laying awake the other night thinking on things, and it started
                      bugging me that we might have gotten our signals crossed by
                      the choice of words I asked the original question in.

                      I did find a different jasmine related name, Sokei (jasminum
                      officinale) - and I may end up using this instead, but I kind of like
                      Kuchinashi, long as it is.

                      If there is a reason (say, character names don't fly) that I can't
                      name myself after a flower, like in Tale of Genji, then I'll accept
                      that. But there are many names in that book that are a much
                      larger mouthfull, and even some of the shorter ones don't always
                      have what looks like a feminine name ender.

                      I'm sorry this is so long, I just want to make sure I've gotten my
                      intentions accross.

                      If I'm totally off in left field, and I can be - just give me a few
                      pointers to get started in the right direction.

                      Thank you for helping, (really!)
                      Jess
                    • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                      Pardon an aside from another newbie, but what is the verdict on flower names? I posted a while back on the name Nadeshiko/Nadesco and was wondering what
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 4, 2004
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                        Pardon an aside from another newbie, but what is the verdict on
                        flower names? I posted a while back on the name Nadeshiko/Nadesco
                        and was wondering what thoughts were on that...

                        And Jess, if flower names get the ok, then I'd stop rooting around
                        in scientific dictionaries (: You'll want to find the common name
                        for the flower as that flower's name might have been given as the
                        Japanese translation of the scientific name or something weird like
                        that, I've seen that instance pop up a couple times...

                        > My main rationalization on kuchinashi being acceptable was
                        > remembering Lady Asagao - meaning both the flower Morning
                        > Glory, and 'morning face'.
                        >
                        > If there is a reason (say, character names don't fly) that I can't
                        > name myself after a flower, like in Tale of Genji, then I'll
                        accept
                        > that.
                      • Solveig
                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... My impression from thumbing through History of Japanese Feminine Names a few times is that names of those two forms
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 5, 2004
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                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig!

                          >I know it's a long name, I was figuring on making a nickname
                          >based on it, like O-nashi, or Kuchi-me. It's one of those things I
                          >haven't worked out yet. That way, I'd have my 'official' name, and
                          >then the one everyone calls me by in informal situations.

                          My impression from thumbing through History of Japanese Feminine Names
                          a few times is that names of those two forms are real live names and
                          not nicknames. O- form names come in during the late Muromachi or later.
                          -me form names date from the Nara period.

                          >My main rationalization on kuchinashi being acceptable was
                          >remembering Lady Asagao - meaning both the flower Morning
                          >Glory, and 'morning face'.

                          Asago is nice and short and I would expect it to take an early name forming
                          ending reasonably well.

                          >I did find a different jasmine related name, Sokei (jasminum
                          >officinale) - and I may end up using this instead, but I kind of like
                          >Kuchinashi, long as it is.

                          Kuchinashi is nice and poetic and kunyomi. The problem with Sokei is
                          that just from the sound of it I would guess that it is an onyomi
                          noun and would therefore not be a likely root for a Japanese name.

                          >If there is a reason (say, character names don't fly) that I can't
                          >name myself after a flower, like in Tale of Genji, then I'll accept
                          >that. But there are many names in that book that are a much
                          >larger mouthfull, and even some of the shorter ones don't always
                          >have what looks like a feminine name ender.

                          I believe that flowers are fine. I am having problems specifically with
                          kuchinashi.

                          Kuchinashi has interesting problems. I looked it up in Zusetsu Somoku
                          Meiroku Jiten. Kushinashi first appears in the Engishiki where the
                          second character
                          is the same character which is read as "ko" in Japanese feminine names. If
                          you want to have a bit of a joke I suppose that you could take this as your
                          name and read it differently. You should understand that this is written
                          with two kanji the first of which means to branch out like on a twig and
                          it can imply branching out in all directions.

                          Although the name usage table in Kadokawa Kanwajiten only gives -SHI as
                          a reading for this kanji when used in names, I suggest that you use the
                          root for the reading as sasa-eru to form Sasako. I only suggest this if
                          you absolutely must go with the flower you have been discussing. Basically,
                          this is a fairly straight forward reading of the Engishiki version of the
                          plant name.
                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        • Jess
                          ... This is what happens when I only have a couple of old pamplets to go by. I m embarrased at the unintentional mistake. What _would_ a nickname formed from a
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 6, 2004
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                            > My impression from thumbing through History of Japanese
                            >Feminine Names a few times is that names of those two forms
                            >are real live names and not nicknames. O- form names come
                            >in during the late >Muromachi or later. -me form names date
                            >from the Nara period.
                            >
                            This is what happens when I only have a couple of old pamplets
                            to go by. I'm embarrased at the unintentional mistake.
                            What _would_ a nickname formed from a regular name look
                            like? Are there any specific conventions to making them?

                            > Asago is nice and short and I would expect it to take an early
                            >name forming ending reasonably well.
                            >
                            Since Asagao doesn't have one in the book (Genji), what would it
                            read as after putting a name ender on?

                            >
                            > Kuchinashi is nice and poetic and kunyomi. The problem with
                            >Sokei is that just from the sound of it I would guess that it is an
                            >onyomi noun and would therefore not be a likely root for a
                            >Japanese name.
                            >
                            Ah. That makes sense. If I had the kanji for this word, I could look
                            up the alternate reading and use that. (assuming it sounds ok)
                            But I don't, so I can't.

                            >
                            > Kuchinashi has interesting problems. I looked it up in Zusetsu
                            >Somoku Meiroku Jiten. Kushinashi first appears in the
                            >Engishiki where the second character is the same character
                            >which is read as "ko" in Japanese feminine names. If you want
                            >to have a bit of a joke I suppose that you could take this as your
                            >name and read it differently. You should understand that this is
                            >written with two kanji the first of which means to branch out like
                            >on a twig and it can imply branching out in all directions.
                            >
                            > Although the name usage table in Kadokawa Kanwajiten only
                            >gives -SHI as a reading for this kanji when used in names, I
                            >suggest that you use the root for the reading as sasa-eru to
                            >form Sasako. I only suggest this if you absolutely must go with
                            >the flower you have been discussing. Basically, this is a fairly
                            >straight forward reading of the Engishiki version of the plant
                            >name.
                            >
                            Okay, struggling with this part - forgive me for using a club to turn
                            pages.

                            So, kuCHI.nashi gets changed over to kuSHI.nashi, and the
                            readings are different, thus making a play on the shi/ko name
                            ender?
                            I'm assuming from the above that the word got chopped up
                            further than I'd though it was and is now ku.chi/shi.na.shi.
                            Am I to understand that the first and last shi are the same, and
                            the kanji for na is the one for 'name' which is also used as the
                            name ender 'ko'? (slowly, with much dictionary flapping, I think
                            I'm getting a clue)
                            What about the kanji for ku, is it to be ignored in favor of this new
                            name, or is it that chopped up like this, there are no KUN
                            readings for a ku kanji - thus making it not suitable for name
                            construction? Just for comparison, what kanji was usd for 'ku'?
                            I'm assuming that whatever the reading or meaning, it would get
                            in the way of the pun, and so wouldn't be desired as part of the
                            new name.


                            Using the verb root, wouldn't Sasashi be another varient? It
                            would bypass the 'na' kanji, and thus be a totally different name,
                            but it sounds ok.
                            I have a dislike for -ko ended names. No matter how much
                            research goes into making a name, if it ends with -ko, there will
                            be comments about modern naming practices.

                            Why would the Gardenia have a woman's name? Is this a
                            common practice in 'naming' plants? Perhaps some things are
                            considered 'feminine' and thus needed a 'feminine' word/name
                            to describe it? (grasping at straws)
                            Or do we have several varients on this combination, and this
                            was just the first instance to translate?

                            Whew. I really need more reference books.

                            Thank you for taking the trouble to help.
                            -Jess
                          • Solveig
                            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... No. -SHI is the onyommi for -ko. The sasa part of sasaeru is writtin in kanji. The Engishiki uses + to
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 6, 2004
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                              Noble Cousin!

                              Greetings from Solveig!

                              >So, kuCHI.nashi gets changed over to kuSHI.nashi, and the
                              >readings are different, thus making a play on the shi/ko name
                              >ender?

                              No. -SHI is the onyommi for -ko. The "sasa" part of "sasaeru" is
                              writtin in kanji. The Engishiki uses <sasa>+<ko> to write the
                              name of the "kuchinashi" plant. The word refers to both the plant
                              and its flower. (cf. pp. 188)

                              >I'm assuming from the above that the word got chopped up
                              >further than I'd though it was and is now ku.chi/shi.na.shi.

                              The form in the Engishiki is written with precisely two kanji. However,
                              the -na- may be a sound which was not written.

                              There are many names and poetic allusions to the plant and its flower:
                              including senbuku, sanshishi, kagaribisau, kuchinaoshi, senboku.

                              There are about twenty different ways to write the name of the plant
                              in kanji found in classical literature. As I wrote earlier,
                              <sasa><ko> is the way it is
                              written in the Engishiki and this is the earliest appearance of the plant
                              and its flower in classical Japanese literature.

                              >Am I to understand that the first and last shi are the same, and
                              >the kanji for na is the one for 'name' which is also used as the
                              >name ender 'ko'?

                              No. The book is not clear about this, however -SHI is the onyomi for -ko.
                              Again, there are only two kanji involved in the version appearing in the
                              Engishiki.

                              >Using the verb root, wouldn't Sasashi be another varient?

                              Not likely. sasa- is a kunyomi reading and -ko is a kunyomi reading
                              while -SHI is an onyomi reading.

                              >It would bypass the 'na' kanji, and thus be a totally different name,
                              >but it sounds ok.

                              There is no "na kanji" in any of the various versions of kuchinashi.

                              If you prefer an alternative to "sasaeru" then there is a version
                              which is written <azayaka><ko> This corresponds to "Yoshiko" which is
                              a real modern Japanese girl's name which appears in Kadokawa
                              Kanwajiten. This letter is written with fish on the left and goat on
                              the right and is read "yoshi" in Yoshiko. You can find this letter in
                              your dictionary if you look for "shinsen"
                              in which case it is the second letter.

                              The dictionary definition of "azayaka" is "itsukushiku hakkiri shiteru".
                              Kenkyusha says that it means "(1) clear (lines), vivid, bright (colours).
                              (2) splendid, brilliant, fine."

                              So. You can pick one of the recognized non-standard ways of writing
                              "kushinashi" and have kanji which can be read as "Yoshiko" which is a
                              real Japanese woman's name. This is not quite a antique as "Sasako",
                              but is better documented.

                              >I have a dislike for -ko ended names. No matter how much
                              >research goes into making a name, if it ends with -ko, there will
                              >be comments about modern naming practices.

                              -ko is a perfectly fine way to construct names during the Heian period.
                              It is easy to avoid -ko names if you want to, but I recommend that you
                              give up on "kushinashi" if you want to go this route.

                              Regardless. Before -ko names there wer -me names and -hime names. After
                              -ko names, there were O- names.

                              >Why would the Gardenia have a woman's name? Is this a
                              >common practice in 'naming' plants? Perhaps some things are
                              >considered 'feminine' and thus needed a 'feminine' word/name
                              >to describe it?

                              No. The kanji -ko actually comes from -zi in classical Chinese. -zi is
                              a word for "master". It is found in the names of Kong Zi (Confucus),
                              Meng Zi (Mencius), Zhuang Zi, Hui Zi, &al. Crown prince in Japanese
                              is "taishi" as in "Shoutoku Taishi" and uses the same -zi kanji. I
                              believe that -ko actually comes from -hiko and -me comes from -hime
                              which makes -ko originally a masculine ending and not a feminine
                              ending. Consider the almost homophonic names Izanami and Izanagi. The
                              male god is Izanagi and the female god is Izanami.

                              >Whew. I really need more reference books.

                              I strongly recommend that you either use the excellent study on Japanese
                              feminine names by Tsunoda Bun'ei (out of print and only available in
                              Japanese) or get a copy of NCMJ or at least take a look at Koop and
                              Inada's book.
                              Please don't expect me to rewrite my pamphlet online. The first version
                              took about four years to produce.
                              --

                              Your Humble Servant
                              Solveig Throndardottir
                              Amateur Scholar

                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
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                              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            • Jess
                              Meep. Looks like I m totally off base everywhere. So the bottom line is that there _is no_ period reference for kuchinashi as it is written today, and I should
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 7, 2004
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                                Meep. Looks like I'm totally off base everywhere.

                                So the bottom line is that there _is no_ period reference for
                                kuchinashi as it is written today, and I should shut up about it
                                and pick something similar that _is_ referenceable.

                                You're reccommending Sasako as the best bet, are the other
                                mentions about the plant in qestion (senbuku, sanshishi,
                                kagaribisau, kuchinaoshi, senboku) suitable at all for name
                                construction, or should I just stop beating the horse?
                                Kuchinaoshi is so darned similar to the modern writing that it
                                makes no difference, but if it just isn't going to work - then it just
                                isn't going to work.

                                I'm stubborn, but I'm trying not to go overboard. (I know, too late)

                                I really appreciate your putting up with my lack of education here.

                                By the bye, is there any way to _get_ any of your Pennsic class
                                pamphlets outside of going to Pennsic? I'm going through all the
                                old posts here, and there was some mention of making pdf files
                                of some of them, but then there was a great copyright debate. If
                                there is a way to get reliable sca pertinant info, I would be
                                ecstatic.

                                I live in a low population area in Kansas (just about anywhere)
                                and my local library laughs at me when I mention inter-library
                                loan. I haven't the money to order from Amazon (who says your
                                name book is unavailable right now anyway...) So my means of
                                accquiring more research materials other than the internet is
                                kinda....dead.

                                Anyway, thanks for helping;
                                -Jess
                              • Solveig
                                Noble Cousin! ... Sasako is older but questionable. Yoshiko is more recent, but safer. ... Greetings from Solveig! I am planning on collecting my various
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 7, 2004
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                                  Noble Cousin!

                                  >You're reccommending Sasako as the best bet, are the other
                                  >mentions about the plant in qestion (senbuku, sanshishi,
                                  >kagaribisau, kuchinaoshi, senboku) suitable at all for name
                                  >construction, or should I just stop beating the horse?
                                  >Kuchinaoshi is so darned similar to the modern writing that it
                                  >makes no difference, but if it just isn't going to work - then it just
                                  >isn't going to work.

                                  Sasako is older but questionable. Yoshiko is more recent, but safer.

                                  >By the bye, is there any way to _get_ any of your Pennsic class
                                  >pamphlets outside of going to Pennsic? I'm going through all the
                                  >old posts here, and there was some mention of making pdf files
                                  >of some of them, but then there was a great copyright debate. If
                                  >there is a way to get reliable sca pertinant info, I would be
                                  >ecstatic.

                                  Greetings from Solveig! I am planning on collecting my various handouts
                                  together and publishing them. I suppose that I will call this collection
                                  the "leaflet" since my name thing is my "pamphlet". I promiss that the
                                  "leaflet" will be shorter ane less expensive than the "pamphlet". The
                                  title is "Bunka" and it already has an ISBN number and is mostly written.
                                  I was going to work on it during the school year, but nothing got done.
                                  I will try to do better this Summer.

                                  >I live in a low population area in Kansas (just about anywhere)
                                  >and my local library laughs at me when I mention inter-library
                                  >loan. I haven't the money to order from Amazon (who says your
                                  >name book is unavailable right now anyway...) So my means of
                                  >accquiring more research materials other than the internet is
                                  >kinda....dead.

                                  I've been to Kansas or was it Nebraska? I understand what you mean.
                                  --

                                  Your Humble Servant
                                  Solveig Throndardottir
                                  Amateur Scholar

                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                  | the trash by my email filters. |
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                                • Solveig
                                  Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... The name business gets complicated really fast. An artsy fartsy Japanese (and all proper kuge and buke are artsy
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 10, 2004
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                                    Noble Cousin!

                                    Greetings from Solveig!

                                    >This is what happens when I only have a couple of old pamplets
                                    >to go by. I'm embarrased at the unintentional mistake.
                                    >What _would_ a nickname formed from a regular name look
                                    >like? Are there any specific conventions to making them?

                                    The name business gets complicated really fast. An artsy fartsy Japanese
                                    (and all proper kuge and buke are artsy fartsy) will accumulate a whole
                                    collection of names associated with various arts and all sorts of other
                                    stuff. For that matter, you get a new name after your dead.

                                    >I'm assuming from the above that the word got chopped up
                                    >further than I'd though it was and is now ku.chi/shi.na.shi.

                                    No. As I wrote earlier. In at least two forms it is written with only two
                                    kanji the second one of which is SHI/ko. In one case the kunyomi would be
                                    Yoshiko. Which is a real Japanese woman's name.

                                    >Am I to understand that the first and last shi are the same, and
                                    >the kanji for na is the one for 'name' which is also used as the
                                    >name ender 'ko'?

                                    You can not always look to "chop things up" the way you are trying to.
                                    For example, "ebi" (shrimp) is written as an ideographic combination.
                                    --

                                    Your Humble Servant
                                    Solveig Throndardottir
                                    Amateur Scholar

                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                    | the trash by my email filters. |
                                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                  • Solveig
                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! There comes a time when it is best to simply stop being stubborn. If you beat on it enough with a crowbar, you might be
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 10, 2004
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                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greetings from Solveig! There comes a time when it is best to simply
                                      stop being stubborn. If you beat on it enough with a crowbar, you might
                                      be able to make Jasmine work, but it really isn't doing very well for
                                      you.

                                      >I know it's a long name, I was figuring on making a nickname
                                      >based on it, like O-nashi, or Kuchi-me. It's one of those things I
                                      >haven't worked out yet. That way, I'd have my 'official' name, and
                                      >then the one everyone calls me by in informal situations.

                                      THOSE ARE NOT NICKNAMES! -me endings were used to form real live names.

                                      >I don't have much to go on for the naming practices of the time. In
                                      >fact, the only book(s) I have that can guide me is the Tale of
                                      >Genji, which contains many feminine names of three to four
                                      >sylables, with few names having an official 'ending'.
                                      >I realize that these are mostly 'character' names, even in period,
                                      >but people have been named after characters in literature for
                                      >about as long as there has been literature to name kids after. ;-)

                                      A lot of the stuff that you encounter in Genji Monogatari ARE NOT NAMES.
                                      You have to try to understand that Japanese avoid using names.

                                      >I did find a different jasmine related name, Sokei (jasminum
                                      >officinale) - and I may end up using this instead, but I kind of like
                                      >Kuchinashi, long as it is.

                                      Kuchinashi works much better as a nickname than it does as a name. Those
                                      ladies that you are reading about in Genji Monogatari are often referred
                                      to by nicknames based upon the particular chamber they lived in or worked
                                      in and NOT by their names.

                                      I wrote this last night while I was tired and grumpy, but I am at a loss
                                      as to how to srpuce it up. So, I am sending it out anyway. Please understand
                                      that I very much want you to have a name which you like and which you will
                                      continue to like. I also hope that you will find a name which will be a good
                                      recreation of pre-modern Japan.
                                      --

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                    • Ii Saburou
                                      ... I think that there are several points of miscommunication here. I m not exactly up to date on women s names (or, in this case, a nickname), but let me see
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 11, 2004
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                                        On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Solveig wrote:

                                        > >I'm assuming from the above that the word got chopped up
                                        > >further than I'd though it was and is now ku.chi/shi.na.shi.
                                        >
                                        > No. As I wrote earlier. In at least two forms it is written with only two
                                        > kanji the second one of which is SHI/ko. In one case the kunyomi would be
                                        > Yoshiko. Which is a real Japanese woman's name.

                                        I think that there are several points of miscommunication here. I'm not
                                        exactly up to date on women's names (or, in this case, a nickname), but
                                        let me see if I understand.

                                        Jess, you are looking for a name OR a nickname to use at events. You took
                                        the translation of you first name (Jasmine) and looked for a similar
                                        flower in Japan. You found a member of the gardenia family, Kuchinashi.

                                        Using this as a nickname you would have people calling you "Kuchinashi no
                                        hime" [Lady of the Kuchinashi], implying a poetic connection with
                                        Kuchinashi for some reason (BTW, 'Kuchinashi' is a homophone for 'no
                                        mouth', and I've just recently seen it used that way as part of a story,
                                        but I digress...).

                                        Solveig-dono brought up the fact that one of the period kanji readings she
                                        has seen includes the kanji for child, 'ko'. This is sometimes read as
                                        'shi', too. Ah, and the first kanji, according to Nelson's, is 'SHI', it
                                        means 'gardenia', and it is only used as the starting kanji in
                                        'KUCHINASHI'.

                                        Wait, you say, but where is 'SHI'? When 'SHI' and 'KO' are used together,
                                        it is read 'KUCHINASHI'. Welcome to the wonderful world of Japanese
                                        names. There is another way to write it, according to Jim Breen's
                                        Dictionary, that adds 'YAMA' (Mountain) to the beginning and yet is
                                        pronounced the same.

                                        I do find the first kanji (which, btw, is 2272 in Nelson's Second Revised
                                        Edition of "The Modern Reader's Japanese-English Character Dictionary").

                                        Jim Breen's WWWJDIC has just the first kanji 'Kuchinashi' as a family
                                        name, and then the three kanji ('YAMA' + 'SHI' + 'KO' = 'Kuchinashi') as a
                                        given name, but there is no evidence as to whether or not these are modern
                                        names or not.

                                        Now, if you want to go down the route of an actual name, you need to look
                                        at different constructions, and it would be problematic to take
                                        'Kuchinashi' apart and try to shove it into a woman's name. Solveig was
                                        pointing out several name elements. Let me see if I can find some
                                        examples....

                                        (Note: these are coming from a chart in the back of a piece of historical
                                        fiction set in Heian Japan. As such, I treat it as all jidai-geki and
                                        recommend you look up a more solid historical basis. These are the
                                        consorts of Emperor Murakami (946-967) [Crown Prince Nariakira, I believe])

                                        Yasuiko - daughter of Uaijin [Minister of the Right] no Fujiwara no
                                        Morosuke and Fujiwara no Moriko [Seiko?]

                                        Nobuko - daughter of Kanpaku [Chancellor] no Fujiwara no Saneyori and
                                        Fujiwara no Tokihira (no) hime [? daughter of Fujiwara Tokihira?]

                                        Yoshiko - daughter of Shigeaki-Shinnou [Prince Shigeaki. Alt.: Juumei,
                                        Shigetomo, Dyunmyon, Atsuharu, shigeharu, Shigemasa] and Fujiwara no
                                        Noriko [alt. Hiroko, Kanko] (Tadahira (no) hime [daughter of Tadahira?])

                                        Shouko - daughter of Yoaki[?]-Shinnou [Prince Yoaki?] and Udaijin no
                                        Fujiwara no Sadakata (no) hime [daughter of Minister of the Right Fujiwara
                                        Sadakata]

                                        Yoshiko [different kanji] - daughter of Sadaijin [Minister of the Left] no
                                        Fujiwara no Morotada and Udaijin no Fujiwara no Sadakata (no) hime
                                        [daughter of the Minister of Right, Fujiwara Sadakata]

                                        Kazuko - daughter of Chuunagon [Middle Counselor] no Minamoto no
                                        (Yutakaaki?--unclear how to read these two kanji: Yutaka + MEI/Aki)

                                        Nagako - daughter of Chuunagon [Middle Counselor] no Fujiwara no Tomonari

                                        Sukehime - daughter of Dainagon, Minbu no Kyou [Great Counselor and
                                        Minister of Popular Affairs] no Fujiwara no Motokata

                                        Masahime - daughter of Fujiwara no Arihira

                                        A Fujiwara - daughter of Sangi [Royal Advisor] no Fujiwara no
                                        (Arisuke?--unclear how to read these two kanji: YUU/Ari + SOU/Ai/[-suke])

                                        Nariko - daughter of Fujiwara no Morosuke and Fujiwara no Moriko [Same
                                        mother as Empress Yasuko]


                                        Notice all of the 'Ko' endings on female names? 'Hime' is also popular.

                                        -Ii
                                      • Solveig
                                        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Ii dono noted the prevalence of -ko names and -hime names. ... As I mentioned earlier, -hime and -me names are older
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                          Noble Cousin!

                                          Greetings from Solveig!

                                          Ii dono noted the prevalence of -ko names and -hime names.

                                          >Notice all of the 'Ko' endings on female names? 'Hime' is also popular.

                                          As I mentioned earlier, -hime and -me names are older style and go back
                                          to the Nara period. -ko names are sort of new fangled and trendy during
                                          the Heian period. Also, I did find Yoshiko which is written with the
                                          same kanji used to write one of the variants of kuchinashi. I mentioned
                                          that several days ago. That is the closest you are likely to come to
                                          having a real Japanese name which is analogous to Jasmine.

                                          As for nicknames. Ii-dono came up with an excellent very Heian-jidai
                                          approach.
                                          --

                                          Your Humble Servant
                                          Solveig Throndardottir
                                          Amateur Scholar

                                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                        • Deborah K. Strub
                                          Greetings! I continue to research Japanese seals/kao for the purpose of signing official Baronial scrolls and have not been able to find anything on how to
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                            Greetings!

                                            I continue to research Japanese seals/kao for the purpose of signing
                                            official Baronial scrolls and have not been able to find anything on how to
                                            design one's kao. I can find things discussing them but nothing (so far)
                                            about how to do your own. Does anybody have any ideas or leads?

                                            YIS,

                                            Murakami Tsuruko
                                            Baroness of Dragon's Laire, Kingdom of An Tir
                                            list lurker
                                          • Elaine Koogler
                                            I m not sure about Japanese seals, but in China, the seals usually consisted of one s name written in great seal characters...we had a seal carved for Phillip
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                              I'm not sure about Japanese seals, but in China, the seals usually
                                              consisted of one's name written in great seal characters...we had a seal
                                              carved for Phillip in Hong Kong a number of years back and the carver
                                              converted his name into characters that sounded like Phillip's name,
                                              thence into great seal characters. I also know that historically, the
                                              great seal characters were used to carve seals, and these seals were
                                              used to seal documents, including an indication of ownership of
                                              scrolls. It's really handy because this information on a painting or
                                              manuscript can be used to establish its provenance. As I indicated, I'm
                                              not sure that this practice was followed in Japan, though it would be
                                              logical as the Chinese characters (kanji) were used in Japan until
                                              recently. And I also know that the seals on Japanese paintings, used
                                              for the same purpose, closely resemble the ones from China.

                                              Kiri

                                              Deborah K. Strub wrote:

                                              > Greetings!
                                              >
                                              > I continue to research Japanese seals/kao for the purpose of signing
                                              > official Baronial scrolls and have not been able to find anything on
                                              > how to
                                              > design one's kao. I can find things discussing them but nothing (so far)
                                              > about how to do your own. Does anybody have any ideas or leads?
                                              >
                                              > YIS,
                                              >
                                              > Murakami Tsuruko
                                              > Baroness of Dragon's Laire, Kingdom of An Tir
                                              > list lurker
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Deborah K. Strub
                                              Greetings, Thank you for the information. It fits pretty closely with what I ve been able to find out so far. I ve found out there are five different types of
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                                Greetings,

                                                Thank you for the information. It fits pretty closely with what I've been
                                                able to find out so far.
                                                I've found out there are five different types of script and if I remember
                                                correctly the seal script (or the art of seal script) is called tenkoku. I
                                                think there was another one used that was somewhat less formal, but I don't
                                                remember what it's called. The Japanese adopted tenkoku for use on official
                                                documents similar to how the Chinese used it. Some time ago I blundered
                                                across a site on the internet that had some examples of shogun's kao but I
                                                seem to have lost the web addy.
                                                I seem to remember some discussion on this list a while ago where someone
                                                said a kao signature would be more appropriate to Japanese persona within
                                                the SCA time period. I'm having a heck of a time finding detailed
                                                information in English on this subject. >sigh< :(

                                                YIS,

                                                Tsuruko

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: Elaine Koogler [mailto:ekoogler1@...]
                                                Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 3:41 PM
                                                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Designing Kao (Kaou)


                                                I'm not sure about Japanese seals, but in China, the seals usually
                                                consisted of one's name written in great seal characters...we had a seal
                                                carved for Phillip in Hong Kong a number of years back and the carver
                                                converted his name into characters that sounded like Phillip's name,
                                                thence into great seal characters. I also know that historically, the
                                                great seal characters were used to carve seals, and these seals were
                                                used to seal documents, including an indication of ownership of
                                                scrolls. It's really handy because this information on a painting or
                                                manuscript can be used to establish its provenance. As I indicated, I'm
                                                not sure that this practice was followed in Japan, though it would be
                                                logical as the Chinese characters (kanji) were used in Japan until
                                                recently. And I also know that the seals on Japanese paintings, used
                                                for the same purpose, closely resemble the ones from China.

                                                Kiri

                                                Deborah K. Strub wrote:

                                                > Greetings!
                                                >
                                                > I continue to research Japanese seals/kao for the purpose of signing
                                                > official Baronial scrolls and have not been able to find anything on
                                                > how to
                                                > design one's kao. I can find things discussing them but nothing (so far)
                                                > about how to do your own. Does anybody have any ideas or leads?
                                                >
                                                > YIS,
                                                >
                                                > Murakami Tsuruko
                                                > Baroness of Dragon's Laire, Kingdom of An Tir
                                                > list lurker
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                                              • Ii Saburou
                                                Soapstone or other soft rock. Wood might work, but stone would seem to be the element of choice (wood only lasts so long: about 80 printings on average was
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                                  Soapstone or other soft rock. Wood might work, but stone would seem to be
                                                  the element of choice (wood only lasts so long: about 80 printings on
                                                  average was what I once heard, but that will no doubt change with the wood
                                                  used).

                                                  If you want red with white lines:
                                                  Draw your design on the soapstone
                                                  Chisel out (scrape out?) the areas you just drew

                                                  If you want white with red lines:
                                                  Draw your design on the soapstone
                                                  Chisel out the areas you didn't draw on.

                                                  The types of characters that could be used vary. They could be clear, but
                                                  seem to more often be more artistic and abstract, so as to make them
                                                  individual. The only suggestion I would have, there, is to take a look at
                                                  others and see what was done.

                                                  -Ii

                                                  On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Deborah K. Strub wrote:

                                                  > Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:57:51 -0700
                                                  > From: Deborah K. Strub <tsuruko@...>
                                                  > Reply-To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Subject: [SCA-JML] Designing Kao (Kaou)
                                                  >
                                                  > Greetings!
                                                  >
                                                  > I continue to research Japanese seals/kao for the purpose of signing
                                                  > official Baronial scrolls and have not been able to find anything on how to
                                                  > design one's kao. I can find things discussing them but nothing (so far)
                                                  > about how to do your own. Does anybody have any ideas or leads?
                                                  >
                                                  > YIS,
                                                  >
                                                  > Murakami Tsuruko
                                                  > Baroness of Dragon's Laire, Kingdom of An Tir
                                                  > list lurker
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Ii Saburou
                                                  ... Kao seem to be used for artwork. For official things I ve also seen quite a bit of evidence for fingerprints or handprints, sometimes put over the name
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                                    On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Deborah K. Strub wrote:

                                                    > I seem to remember some discussion on this list a while ago where someone
                                                    > said a kao signature would be more appropriate to Japanese persona within
                                                    > the SCA time period. I'm having a heck of a time finding detailed
                                                    > information in English on this subject. >sigh< :(

                                                    Kao seem to be used for artwork. For official things I've also seen quite
                                                    a bit of evidence for fingerprints or handprints, sometimes put over the
                                                    name brushed on (sealing the name). Another use is to use them on parts
                                                    of a scroll where the papers join together so that it can be shown that
                                                    part A and B go together.

                                                    Have you looked for 'inkan' as well as 'kao'?

                                                    -Ii
                                                  • Barbara Nostrand
                                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Apparently, Tanko ran an article about kao several years ago which was later translated into English and printed in the
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                                      Noble Cousin!

                                                      Greetings from Solveig! Apparently, Tanko ran an article about kao several
                                                      years ago which was later translated into English and printed in the journal
                                                      of the Green Society. A rather nice fellow sent me a copy a wile back.
                                                      Regardless, there are a number of places where you can find reporductions
                                                      of kao.

                                                      However, I do not recommend that you try to get the royalty to adopt kao.
                                                      Rather, I suggest that you carve inkan for them and have them use those.

                                                      There is a very brief discussion of kao in my handout on Japanese calligraphy.

                                                      Many different materials can and have been used to make inkan. These include
                                                      metal, ivory, bone, rock, and wood. Wood actually lasts remarkably long.

                                                      While there are famous examples of handprints on documnets and thumbprints
                                                      sometimes substitute for inkan in contemporary Japan, there is a lot of
                                                      evidence for using kao in official works. As for art work, when an artist
                                                      wants to take special responsibility for the artwork, then they affix their
                                                      kao. Otherwise, you will see a seal impression or a simple written signature.
                                                      Basically, having a kao on a piece of art is a big deal. Such works typically
                                                      cost more than those with other forms of authentication.
                                                      --

                                                      Your Humble Servant
                                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                                      Amateur Scholar

                                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                      | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                                      | the trash by my email filters. |
                                                      +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                    • Maria
                                                      ... Some inkan (kao) = seal sources in English: Earnshaw, Christopher J. _Sho: Japanese Calligraphy. An In-depth Introduction to the Art of Writing
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Jun 13, 2004
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                                                        Ii Saburou wrote:

                                                        > On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Deborah K. Strub wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > > I seem to remember some discussion on this list a while ago
                                                        > where someone
                                                        > > said a kao signature would be more appropriate to Japanese persona
                                                        > within
                                                        > > the SCA time period. I'm having a heck of a time finding detailed
                                                        > > information in English on this subject. >sigh< :(
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Have you looked for 'inkan' as well as 'kao'?
                                                        >

                                                        Some inkan (kao) = seal sources in English:

                                                        Earnshaw, Christopher J. _Sho: Japanese Calligraphy. An In-depth
                                                        Introduction to the Art of Writing Characters_ (Rutland, Vermont;
                                                        Charles E. Tuttle Company, 1988) ISBN 0-8048-1568-2. pp 26-32. Very
                                                        exact instructions on how to do it. Book is (I believe) still in print
                                                        and should be widely available.

                                                        Long, Jean. _The Art of Chinese Calligraphy_ (Mineola, New York; Dover
                                                        Publications, 1987.) ISBN 0-486-41739-5. pp. 53-64. Also in print,
                                                        widely available. Not instructions, but discusses the use of the seal
                                                        and the color variations (mainly from the Chinese perspective).

                                                        Nukata, Yujiro. _The Art of Japanese Calligraphy_ (New York; John
                                                        Weatherhill, Inc. 1973--the version I have published in 1983). ISBN
                                                        0-8348-1013-1. pp. 29-50. Thorough discussion of Tensho (seal script).
                                                        Includes several pictures of period and post-period examples of the
                                                        script. Book is out of print but could possibly be found via
                                                        inter-library loan.

                                                        Some of my other calligraphy books mention seal-carving, but don't go
                                                        into great detail. Earnshaw is your best bet, with Nukata as a supplement.

                                                        Hope this helps.

                                                        Writing from my home overlooking the Great River.

                                                        Ki no Torahime

                                                        Riverwatch, Calontir

                                                        (No, I didn't get to go to Lilies! ;_; )
                                                      • Solveig
                                                        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! Unfortunately, I can not seem to find my book on inkan carving at the moment. Here is a book which may prove useful to
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Jun 14, 2004
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                                                          Noble Cousins!

                                                          Greetings from Solveig! Unfortunately, I can not seem to find my book on
                                                          inkan carving at the moment. Here is a book which may prove useful to people:

                                                          Title: Inkan Nyuumon
                                                          Publisher: Ho'ikusha
                                                          ISBN: 4-58650-805-1
                                                          Size: 151 p 15 x 11 (cm)

                                                          Here is a book which claims that it will have you complete an inkan in 30
                                                          minutes:

                                                          Title: 30 pun de dekiru! Ishi no Hanko koza
                                                          ISBN: 4-938249-93-6

                                                          This is a book which is likely to be the one that I have. Regardless, it
                                                          should be interesting:

                                                          Title: Tenkoku no Geijutsu
                                                          Publisher: Shogakukan
                                                          Size: 246 pÅ@19 x 13 (cm)
                                                          ISBN: 4-09-387040-3 ; (1988/07)
                                                          --

                                                          Your Humble Servant
                                                          Solveig Throndardottir
                                                          Amateur Scholar

                                                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                                                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                                                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                                                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+

                                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • Solveig
                                                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! And just to throw in a dash more confusion to this whole business about Japanese names. In paleo-Japanese -ko is a
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Apr 19, 2005
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                                                            Noble Cousin!

                                                            Greetings from Solveig! And just to throw in a dash more confusion to
                                                            this whole business about Japanese names. In paleo-Japanese -ko is a
                                                            masculine ending while -me is a feminine ending. You still see this
                                                            in word pairs like musuko and musume. Thus, if you go far enough
                                                            back, the -ko names are masculine names, but by the mid-Nara period,
                                                            -ko was a solidly feminine ending. The kanji used to write -ko is
                                                            also read as SHI in Japanese or ZI in Chinese. We encounter it as a
                                                            name final in the names of Chinese scholars where it roughly
                                                            translates to "Master".
                                                            --

                                                            Your Humble Servant
                                                            Solveig Throndardottir
                                                            Amateur Scholar

                                                            +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
                                                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS, Fleur |
                                                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                                                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:Solveig@... |
                                                            +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                                                            | trash by my email filters. |
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                                                          • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                                            ... It should be noted that the same ko that Solveig-hime is discussing here, today, at least, translates as child in Japanese. I ve always wondered about
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Apr 21, 2005
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                                                              On 4/20/05, Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:
                                                              > Noble Cousin!
                                                              >
                                                              > Greetings from Solveig! And just to throw in a dash more confusion to
                                                              > this whole business about Japanese names. In paleo-Japanese -ko is a
                                                              > masculine ending while -me is a feminine ending. You still see this
                                                              > in word pairs like musuko and musume. Thus, if you go far enough
                                                              > back, the -ko names are masculine names, but by the mid-Nara period,
                                                              > -ko was a solidly feminine ending. The kanji used to write -ko is
                                                              > also read as SHI in Japanese or ZI in Chinese. We encounter it as a
                                                              > name final in the names of Chinese scholars where it roughly
                                                              > translates to "Master".

                                                              It should be noted that the same 'ko' that Solveig-hime is discussing
                                                              here, today, at least, translates as 'child' in Japanese. I've always
                                                              wondered about the implications there, but that may account for the
                                                              difference during the mid-Nara period.

                                                              -Ii
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