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Mon Question

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  • Ricky Stewart
    Greetings list, I was wondering if anyone could help me. My current device is a Argent, a salamander vert enflamed proper, on a chief triangular vert a Bowen
    Message 1 of 19 , May 19 2:57 AM
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      Greetings list,
      I was wondering if anyone could help me. My current device is a
      Argent, a salamander vert enflamed proper, on a chief triangular vert
      a Bowen knot argent. I am no good at all things heraldry and was
      wondering if anyone had any ideas on converting this to a more
      Japanese device or if I need to scratch it out and start all over.
      Thank you for any help.

      -Minamoto Takeka
    • Solveig
      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... While the Japanese do use some animals in kammon, salamanders just do not sound particularly Japanse. The japanese
      Message 2 of 19 , May 19 2:15 PM
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        Noble Cousin!

        Greetings from Solveig!

        >I was wondering if anyone could help me. My current device is a
        >Argent, a salamander vert enflamed proper, on a chief triangular vert
        >a Bowen knot argent. I am no good at all things heraldry and was
        >wondering if anyone had any ideas on converting this to a more
        >Japanese device or if I need to scratch it out and start all over.
        >Thank you for any help.

        While the Japanese do use some animals in kammon, salamanders just
        do not sound particularly Japanse. The japanese use several different
        birds, turtles, deer, rabbits and a few other things. Also, I have
        no recollection of ever seeing enflaming or even flames in Japanese
        kamon. Further, this business of field division involving chiefs is
        not a normative Japanese design concept.
        --

        Your Humble Servant
        Solveig Throndardottir
        Amateur Scholar

        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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      • Ricky Stewart
        So scratch it completely is the best thing. Can you give me some good sites to research creating a kamon? Do you know if they had any symbols that had anything
        Message 3 of 19 , May 19 4:18 PM
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          So scratch it completely is the best thing. Can you give me some good
          sites to research creating a kamon? Do you know if they had any
          symbols that had anything to do with fire or firefighting? The reason
          I ask is because the reason I chose the salamander in the first place
          back in '99 was because I am a firefighter and I would like to stay
          with that theme in some way or another. It's not a must though. Thank
          you again for the great information!
          (There's just no one in my area that does a Japanese, so I am doing
          it all on my own here.)
          -Minamoto Takeka
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
          > Noble Cousin!
          >
          > Greetings from Solveig!
          >
          > >I was wondering if anyone could help me. My current device is a
          > >Argent, a salamander vert enflamed proper, on a chief triangular
          vert
          > >a Bowen knot argent. I am no good at all things heraldry and was
          > >wondering if anyone had any ideas on converting this to a more
          > >Japanese device or if I need to scratch it out and start all over.
          > >Thank you for any help.
          >
          > While the Japanese do use some animals in kammon, salamanders just
          > do not sound particularly Japanse. The japanese use several
          different
          > birds, turtles, deer, rabbits and a few other things. Also, I have
          > no recollection of ever seeing enflaming or even flames in Japanese
          > kamon. Further, this business of field division involving chiefs is
          > not a normative Japanese design concept.
          > --
          >
          > Your Humble Servant
          > Solveig Throndardottir
          > Amateur Scholar
          >
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          Est |
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        • Ii Saburou
          ... I seem to recall that fire rakes were used, but I can t find a specific source. I ll look through and try to find evidence. -Ii
          Message 4 of 19 , May 19 4:33 PM
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            On Wed, 19 May 2004, Ricky Stewart wrote:

            > So scratch it completely is the best thing. Can you give me some good
            > sites to research creating a kamon? Do you know if they had any
            > symbols that had anything to do with fire or firefighting? The reason
            > I ask is because the reason I chose the salamander in the first place
            > back in '99 was because I am a firefighter and I would like to stay
            > with that theme in some way or another. It's not a must though. Thank
            > you again for the great information!
            > (There's just no one in my area that does a Japanese, so I am doing
            > it all on my own here.)
            > -Minamoto Takeka

            I seem to recall that fire rakes were used, but I can't find a specific
            source. I'll look through and try to find evidence.

            -Ii
          • Otagiri Tatsuzou
            ... You could be always *be* a fire fighter. It s out-of-period, but you probably would be very interested in the fire-fighting techniques and organizations
            Message 5 of 19 , May 19 4:37 PM
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              > I ask is because the reason I chose the salamander in the first place
              > back in '99 was because I am a firefighter and I would like to stay
              > with that theme in some way or another.

              You could be always *be* a fire fighter. It's out-of-period, but you
              probably would be very interested in the fire-fighting techniques and
              organizations that existed in large cities such as Edo. Japan was very
              fire conscious during the Tokugawa era and fire fighters had some
              status. I would not be surprised if the roots of the fire brigades
              could be traced into the Muromachi era or earlier.


              A fire related symbol appears in Takeda Shingen's war motto:

              Haya ki koto kaze no gotoku.
              Shizu kanaru koto hayashi no gotoku.
              Shin ryakusuru koto hi no gotoku.
              Ugokazaru koto yama no gotoku.

              Fast like the wind,
              Silent like a forest,
              Intrusive like the fire,
              Immobile like a mountain

              http://digilander.libero.it/savonakendo/furen.html


              Otagiri
            • mikel_lehman
              ... vert ... Ok, granted this would be hard to track down period depictions of these, but Japan in period was known to portray animals that were unknown
              Message 6 of 19 , May 19 5:40 PM
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                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ricky Stewart" <rstewartusmc@y...>
                wrote:
                > Greetings list,
                > I was wondering if anyone could help me. My current device is a
                > Argent, a salamander vert enflamed proper, on a chief triangular
                vert
                > a Bowen knot argent. I am no good at all things heraldry and was
                > wondering if anyone had any ideas on converting this to a more
                > Japanese device or if I need to scratch it out and start all over.
                > Thank you for any help.
                >
                > -Minamoto Takeka

                Ok, granted this would be hard to track down period depictions of
                these, but Japan in period was known to portray animals that were
                unknown physically in Japan... Lions/Tigers (were there any big
                preditory cats at all?) Elephants, Crocodiles/Monitor lizards...
                If these things existed in art, well I do not see a newt, salamander,
                small lizard, being too big a jump. I do not know what eactly a
                bowen not is so you will have to pardon me. Also mon were not multi-
                colored, they were 2 color and color did not matter, only shape
                (however some people would represent themselves with specific colors
                and would become known for it but shape was the main differentiating
                factor of Mon.

                Now in an attempt to generate ideas, note I am not trying to be
                faithul to the letter of historyorical accuracy, but at least the
                spirit of it. Here is a suggestion for using your existing
                blazon/emblazon.

                The border composed of 4 squares to signify a knot. (not a detailed
                drawing but just to give you the idea and be able to find it in a
                book of mon for the correct element) A buddist icon aura flame (we
                see these in art surrounding the budda and other holy personages, it
                is stylized) and The salamander. As an other border idea maybe a
                triangle, but I think incorperating them both into the same element
                would be overpowering. I will save a Jpg file of it in the Files
                section of the SCA-JML list site on yahoo in just a minute. (filename
                salamander mon.jpg

                I would appreciate people's comments and opinons of this as well.
                (not an art critique but ideas mainly helpful to this gentleman.)

                -Tetsunaga,
                with too much time on his hands tonight.
              • Solveig
                Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... Yes. They do. You can take either of two approaches. You can either go after designs used by fire fighting companies
                Message 7 of 19 , May 19 7:57 PM
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                  Noble Cousin!

                  Greetings from Solveig!

                  >Do you know if they had any symbols that had anything to do with
                  >fire or firefighting?

                  Yes. They do. You can take either of two approaches. You can either go
                  after designs used by fire fighting companies or you can go after an
                  arrangement of fire fighting tools. The Japanese fought fires by tearing
                  down buildings. Fire fighters used ladders and tools for tearing down houses.

                  The problem with uniforms actually worn by fire fighting companies is that
                  most of them contain elements which the College of Arms will refuse to
                  register. Specifically, these uniforms usually had a large circle in the
                  middle of the back which contained a single hiragana or kanji character.
                  Otherwise, the uniforms were covered with a regular pattern of some sort
                  which might be lozengy or something like fretty. Fire fighting companies
                  also had distinctive standards. A chart of fire fighting uniforms and
                  standards appears on page 163 of Kamon no Hanashi 4-10-600528-X.

                  >If these things existed in art, well I do not see a newt, salamander,
                  >small lizard, being too big a jump.

                  It depends on whether or not you are tyring to recreate Japanese kamon
                  or not. Neither Europe nor Japan actually used all known things. In fact,
                  both tended to use a subset of known things. Yes, the College of Arms will
                  allow any object which was known in Europe before 1601 which is not deemed
                  to be offensive. But, that is not good reconstruction.

                  >Also mon were not multi-colored, they were 2 color and color did not
                  >matter, only shape (however some people would represent themselves
                  >with specific colors and would become known for it but shape was the
                  >main differentiating
                  >factor of Mon.

                  While it is true that modern kamon references use black and white illustrations
                  and give descriptions that do not indicate tincture, it is also true that
                  battle paintings clearly show consistent tincutre usage. Also, illustrations
                  of street scenes and archetectural features on old building indicate that
                  tincture was in fact used. The general tincture limit that I have observed
                  is about three tinctures for flags. Flags with three tinctures are actually
                  quite common in iconographic evidence.

                  As for auras around the Buddha. This is a variety of halo. It is found
                  quite commonly in Buddhist art, but does not appear commonly, if at all,
                  in kamon. There is also a kind of stylized flame that is part of temple
                  stamps in Japan. (A feature of Japanese tourism is collecting sovenier
                  stamp impressions in little books. Lots of places, chiefly religious
                  sites and railway stations, have them.) Youth Hostles also have stamps
                  in Japan. But, they are generally smaller than the ones at temples and
                  train stations. Regardless, this flame is general Indian in style and
                  is particular to temples. Regardless, you should understand that while
                  Anglo-Norman heraldry appears to be descended from shield bosses, that
                  Japanese heraldry appears to be descended from textile patterns. This
                  makes for a distinct asthetic sense between the two and explains why
                  some things that you might see in one will not be seen in another.
                  --

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                  | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                  | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                  | the trash by my email filters. |
                  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                • Elaine Koogler
                  It s a great design ....but I have never seen anything even remotely like it in any Japanese mon or even in SCA heraldry. I honestly don t think it would
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 20 8:13 AM
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                    It's a great design ....but I have never seen anything even remotely
                    like it in any Japanese mon or even in SCA heraldry. I honestly don't
                    think it would pass. I like the idea of using the Buddhist icon aura
                    flame isn't a bad one, but the salamander superimposed on it isn't like
                    traditional Japanese mon. And the border is really odd...I'm not even
                    sure how it could be emblazoned. Sorry...great try, but, IMHO, no bullseye.

                    Kiri

                    mikel_lehman wrote:

                    >
                    > The border composed of 4 squares to signify a knot. (not a detailed
                    > drawing but just to give you the idea and be able to find it in a
                    > book of mon for the correct element) A buddist icon aura flame (we
                    > see these in art surrounding the budda and other holy personages, it
                    > is stylized) and The salamander. As an other border idea maybe a
                    > triangle, but I think incorperating them both into the same element
                    > would be overpowering. I will save a Jpg file of it in the Files
                    > section of the SCA-JML list site on yahoo in just a minute. (filename
                    > salamander mon.jpg
                    >
                    > I would appreciate people's comments and opinons of this as well.
                    > (not an art critique but ideas mainly helpful to this gentleman.)
                    >
                    > -Tetsunaga,
                    > with too much time on his hands tonight.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Ricky Stewart
                    Greetings list, Let me give this whole Mon thing a try. I could be really off but here it goes tell me if it is just completely wrong. What about Two three
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 20 3:51 PM
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                      Greetings list,
                      Let me give this whole Mon thing a try. I could be really off but
                      here it goes tell me if it is just completely wrong.
                      What about Two three clawed dragon's arms( Iread that all Japanese
                      dragons had just three claws) holding a Asa plant incircled by a ring.
                      Thank you guys for all the help again!

                      -Minamoto Takeka

                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1@c...> wrote:
                      > It's a great design ....but I have never seen anything even
                      remotely
                      > like it in any Japanese mon or even in SCA heraldry. I honestly
                      don't
                      > think it would pass. I like the idea of using the Buddhist icon
                      aura
                      > flame isn't a bad one, but the salamander superimposed on it isn't
                      like
                      > traditional Japanese mon. And the border is really odd...I'm not
                      even
                      > sure how it could be emblazoned. Sorry...great try, but, IMHO, no
                      bullseye.
                      >
                      > Kiri
                      >
                      > mikel_lehman wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > The border composed of 4 squares to signify a knot. (not a
                      detailed
                      > > drawing but just to give you the idea and be able to find it in a
                      > > book of mon for the correct element) A buddist icon aura flame
                      (we
                      > > see these in art surrounding the budda and other holy personages,
                      it
                      > > is stylized) and The salamander. As an other border idea maybe a
                      > > triangle, but I think incorperating them both into the same
                      element
                      > > would be overpowering. I will save a Jpg file of it in the Files
                      > > section of the SCA-JML list site on yahoo in just a minute.
                      (filename
                      > > salamander mon.jpg
                      > >
                      > > I would appreciate people's comments and opinons of this as well.
                      > > (not an art critique but ideas mainly helpful to this gentleman.)
                      > >
                      > > -Tetsunaga,
                      > > with too much time on his hands tonight.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
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                    • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                      ... Japanese mons tend to be very abstract or geometrical where what your describing seems to me rather representational. When representaional objects (such as
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 20 6:35 PM
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                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ricky Stewart" <rstewartusmc@y...> wrote:
                        > Greetings list,
                        > Let me give this whole Mon thing a try. I could be really off but
                        > here it goes tell me if it is just completely wrong.
                        > What about Two three clawed dragon's arms( Iread that all Japanese
                        > dragons had just three claws) holding a Asa plant incircled by a ring.
                        > Thank you guys for all the help again!
                        >
                        > -Minamoto Takeka

                        Japanese mons tend to be very abstract or geometrical where what your
                        describing seems to me rather representational. When representaional
                        objects (such as blades of grain, trees or tree branches ...) are
                        used, they are usually forced into a very geometric shape (circle or
                        lozenge).

                        Instead of a dragons arm, try a dragons claw or (in my case) a
                        dragon's scale - simpler items more easily abstracted (and rendered
                        less-animal like - the scale looks like a petal, the claw like a clove).

                        I am not sure of the shape of the asa, but you might want to use just
                        the flower head, or the flower petal, or an asa leaf as the primary
                        glyph (to be repeated or reshaped)

                        Have you wandered through http://kamon.org . I have no idea of how
                        their mons fit into history, but the basic esthetics did not change
                        that much.

                        I hope this helps
                        Otagiri
                      • Date Saburou Yukiie
                        Konnichi wa, tomodachi, It is my understanding that for Asian dragons, any one, in China or Japan could use an image of a dragon that had five fingers, but the
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 21 3:40 AM
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                          Konnichi wa, tomodachi,
                          It is my understanding that for Asian dragons, any one, in China or
                          Japan could use an image of a dragon that had five fingers, but the
                          three finger dragon was the domain of Imperial sorts -
                          No, leave it to the government to choose a less dexterous, non
                          opposable thumb having dragon for its business affairs...

                          Date Saburou Yukiie
                          Yama Kaminari Ryu

                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Ricky Stewart" <rstewartusmc@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > Greetings list,
                          > Let me give this whole Mon thing a try. I could be really off but
                          > here it goes tell me if it is just completely wrong.
                          > What about Two three clawed dragon's arms( Iread that all Japanese
                          > dragons had just three claws) holding a Asa plant incircled by a
                          ring.
                          > Thank you guys for all the help again!
                          >
                          > -Minamoto Takeka
                          >
                          >
                        • ekoogler1@comcast.net
                          I have always read that, in China, the dragon with five toes is symbolic of the Emperor...and only he could use it. Dragons with 4 toes were restricted to
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 21 6:46 AM
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                            I have always read that, in China, the dragon with five toes is symbolic of the Emperor...and only he could use it. Dragons with 4 toes were restricted to the royal family, and others used a dragon with 3 toes. Most all of the Japanese dragons I have seen had three toes...that's why my mon is the claws of a three-toed dragon. I do own a 16th century robe fragment of a dragon that has three toes, which means that it was probably worn by a courtier.

                            Kiri






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • mokurai
                            Thank you Kiri, This was what I thought was the case as well. - mokurai the ignorant
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 21 7:07 AM
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                              Thank you Kiri,

                              This was what I thought was the case as well.

                              - mokurai the ignorant



                              At 09:46 AM 5/21/2004, you wrote:
                              >I have always read that, in China, the dragon with five toes is symbolic
                              >of the Emperor...and only he could use it. Dragons with 4 toes were
                              >restricted to the royal family, and others used a dragon with 3
                              >toes. Most all of the Japanese dragons I have seen had three
                              >toes...that's why my mon is the claws of a three-toed dragon. I do own a
                              >16th century robe fragment of a dragon that has three toes, which means
                              >that it was probably worn by a courtier.
                              >
                              >Kiri
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • Date Saburou Yukiie
                              Kiri-dono, I am not suprised that I had it absolutely backwards. Perhaps that is why they are sending me to the land of Garlic Eaters to enact a Marine landing
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 21 7:41 AM
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                                Kiri-dono,
                                I am not suprised that I had it absolutely backwards. Perhaps that is
                                why they are sending me to the land of Garlic Eaters to enact a
                                Marine landing at this place called Pusan...I should get a map, and
                                see where that is... <wink>

                                Date Yukiie
                                Yama Kaminari Ryu...

                                (packing to head off to Aethelmearc War Practice...)

                                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, ekoogler1@c... wrote:
                                > I have always read that, in China, the dragon with five toes is
                                symbolic of the Emperor...and only he could use it. Dragons with 4
                                toes were restricted to the royal family, and others used a dragon
                                with 3 toes. Most all of the Japanese dragons I have seen had three
                                toes...that's why my mon is the claws of a three-toed dragon. I do
                                own a 16th century robe fragment of a dragon that has three toes,
                                which means that it was probably worn by a courtier.
                                >
                                > Kiri
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • mokurai
                                ... Watch out for those ocean turtles. I hear they re pretty big. - mokurai
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 21 8:24 AM
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                                  At 10:41 AM 5/21/2004, you wrote:
                                  >Kiri-dono,
                                  >I am not suprised that I had it absolutely backwards. Perhaps that is
                                  >why they are sending me to the land of Garlic Eaters to enact a
                                  >Marine landing at this place called Pusan...I should get a map, and
                                  >see where that is... <wink>
                                  >
                                  >Date Yukiie
                                  >Yama Kaminari Ryu...

                                  Watch out for those ocean turtles. I hear they're pretty big.

                                  - mokurai
                                • makiwara_no_yetsuko
                                  ... is ... As opposed to the land of Garlic Growers - Gilroy, California. There s a roadside farm stand I pass when I m down that way for events that always
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 21 1:58 PM
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                                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Date Saburou Yukiie" <kabuto@c...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > Kiri-dono,
                                    > I am not suprised that I had it absolutely backwards. Perhaps that
                                    is
                                    > why they are sending me to the land of Garlic Eaters to enact a
                                    > Marine landing at this place called Pusan...I should get a map, and
                                    > see where that is... <wink>

                                    As opposed to the land of Garlic Growers - Gilroy, California.
                                    There's a roadside farm stand I pass when I'm down that way for
                                    events that always makes me laugh and cringe at the same time. The
                                    big sign out front says "Garlic Cherries" - let's hope V-8 doesn't
                                    decide to try that as a Twister flavor. ;->

                                    Makiwara, succumbing to a case of the Friday afternoon sillies
                                  • Barbara Nostrand
                                    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... It s a very unlikely design. I think that you are still thinking Western. Please try to accept that it is very buff
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 21 7:59 PM
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                                      Noble Cousin!

                                      Greetings from Solveig!

                                      >Let me give this whole Mon thing a try. I could be really off but
                                      >here it goes tell me if it is just completely wrong.
                                      >What about Two three clawed dragon's arms( Iread that all Japanese
                                      >dragons had just three claws) holding a Asa plant incircled by a ring.
                                      >Thank you guys for all the help again!

                                      It's a very unlikely design. I think that you are still thinking Western.
                                      Please try to accept that it is very buff to have pictures of flowers
                                      or birds or geometric shapes all over your clothes.

                                      >Have you wandered through http://kamon.org . I have no idea of how
                                      >their mons fit into history, but the basic esthetics did not change
                                      >that much.

                                      Looking through a few of the early postings on kamon.org I would say
                                      that it is largely populated by American sansei and yonsei looking
                                      for their "roots". This means that many of them may have less of a
                                      "clue" than the average member of this mailing list. Their blog or
                                      whatever exactly they are running may evolve some expertise in a
                                      few months or years.
                                      --

                                      Your Humble Servant
                                      Solveig Throndardottir
                                      Amateur Scholar

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                                      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                                      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                                    • RavenRux@COX.NET
                                      Solveig wrote: Looking through a few of the early postings on kamon.org I would say that it is largely populated by American sansei and yonsei looking for
                                      Message 18 of 19 , May 24 5:17 AM
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                                        Solveig wrote:
                                        Looking through a few of the early postings on kamon.org I would say
                                        that it is largely populated by American sansei and yonsei looking
                                        for their "roots". This means that many of them may have less of a
                                        "clue" than the average member of this mailing list. Their blog or
                                        whatever exactly they are running may evolve some expertise in a
                                        few months or years.
                                        --

                                        Japanese dustbin heraldry?

                                        Masamune
                                        From: Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...>
                                        Date: 2004/05/21 Fri PM 10:59:34 EDT
                                        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Mon Question



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • chrish19572003
                                        Greetings Most honored corespondents, I am seeking help in how to describe my ladies family Mon for SCA submission. I have posted a photo of her Families Mon
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Nov 20, 2006
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                                          Greetings Most honored corespondents,
                                          I am seeking help in how to describe my ladies family Mon for SCA
                                          submission. I have posted a photo of her Families Mon in the photos
                                          section.

                                          I also would like to do a banner for her in time for christmas and am
                                          wondering about colors for Japanese Hearldry.

                                          During the SCA period her ancestors were Mori retainers (Inoue) so I am
                                          thinking Mori Red and white although I think she would prefer purple
                                          and white.

                                          The Mon itself may have been adopted adopted during the imperial
                                          restoration of the 1870's although it may date back to the SCA period

                                          Thank You

                                          Marius
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