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Re: [SCA-JML] encampments

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  • Grim Shieldsson
    ... Not at all.. please send away. ... Hmmmm.. if you assume the classic A Japanese persona is a visitor. theory much of the SCA uses to explain the Japanese
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 10 8:28 PM
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      --- Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@...> wrote:
      > Noble Cousins!
      >
      > There is a fairly decent drawing of an akunoya in a short article
      > which I can send you in pdf format if you don't mind large file
      > attachments.

      Not at all.. please send away.

      >
      > The akunoya were used for a variety of ceremonies by the Heian
      > court and for what might be thought of as party chambers during
      > appropriate seasons of the year. Among other things, ritual
      > meals were eaten in akunoya and a variety of entertainments
      > (rites) were viewed while sitting in the akunoya. (The
      > entertainments were outside in the courtyard in at least one or
      > two pictures I've seen of the things.
      >
      > As for campaigns. What Baron Edward said with possibly a few
      > addenda. If you were of sufficient rank, you would commandier
      > a temple or shrine or some other relatively posh accomodation.
      > Other local accomodations would follow down the pecking order.
      > If there was a siege or something sufficiently protracted,
      > some of the middle management in the army might be housed in
      > some sort of nagaya set up for the occasion. However, you
      > should generally expect to sleep under a shield if you are lucky
      > and in a hole in the ground or out in the open if you are less
      > lucky.

      Hmmmm.. if you assume the classic "A Japanese persona is a visitor."
      theory much of the SCA uses to explain the Japanese in a Western
      society, then wouldn't this mean commandeering the largest possible
      pavilion of western design? Assuming of course the persona is
      campaigning with his/her western hosts..... ?????

      >
      > All of that said, there are fun things that can be done that do
      > not involve tents. You can set up a military headquarters complete
      > with maku and what naught. There are pleanty of pictures of these
      > from Sengokujidai battle paintings.
      >
      > One of my fantasies is to build a knock down Buddhist temple which
      > can be set up at Pennsic. At least ten people would have to go in
      > on the thing for it to be practicle. With Pennsic land regulations,
      > 10 people would yield something like 2000 square feet which is
      > enough acarage for a fairly nice edifice with a couple of buildings.
      >
      > What would be even more fun would be to set up a dwelling of the
      > sort used by the kuge during their hey day complete with pond in
      > the middle.
      >
      > Your Humble Servant
      > Solveig Throndardottir
      > Amateur Scholar
      > --
      >
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      > | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM
      > |
      > | de Moivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est
      > |
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      =====
      Jim Barrows Grim Shieldsson
      Software Barbarian Acting Chieftain of Clan StormWolf
      Webcasts.com Barbarian Freehold Alliance
      http://www.geocities.com/grimshieldsson
      It is far better to ask forgiveness then permission.
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    • Kass McGann
      ... The classic A Japanese persona is a visitor... makes my persona utterly impossible. So for my part, I ignore it. Of course I also sleep in a Western
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 11 5:28 AM
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        > Hmmmm.. if you assume the classic "A Japanese persona is a visitor."
        > theory much of the SCA uses to explain the Japanese in a Western
        > society, then wouldn't this mean commandeering the largest possible
        > pavilion of western design? Assuming of course the persona is
        > campaigning with his/her western hosts..... ?????

        The classic "A Japanese persona is a visitor..." makes my persona
        utterly impossible. So for my part, I ignore it.

        Of course I also sleep in a Western tent in Western garb because
        Fujiwara-hime wouldn't be caught dead on campaign!

        Aoi
      • Barbara Nostrand
        Noble Cousins! ... Since the European part of the Society is nowhere and nowhen this visitor stuff is really very silly. The various Europeans portrayed
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 11 6:37 AM
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          Noble Cousins!

          Lord Grim Shieldsson wrote:

          >Hmmmm.. if you assume the classic "A Japanese persona is a visitor."
          >theory much of the SCA uses to explain the Japanese in a Western
          >society, then wouldn't this mean commandeering the largest possible
          >pavilion of western design? Assuming of course the persona is
          >campaigning with his/her western hosts..... ?????

          Since the "European" part of the Society is nowhere and nowhen this
          "visitor" stuff is really very silly. The various "Europeans"
          portrayed in the Society would not in general have recognized each
          other any more than they would have recognized a Japanese and in
          some cases, the Europeans would have more readily have recognized
          a Japanese since Japanese were known by direct contact to at least
          some Europeans during the 16th century and possibly other periods
          as well.

          In ancient times, the SCA (now the Principality of the Mists) was doing
          King Arthur (ala Malory). The SCA as a whole has not done King Arthur
          since the arrival of the East Kingdom over thirty years ago. Arthurian
          recreation remains a significant cultural phenomena and touchstone
          in some (if not all) of the "Western Rite" kingdoms, but is largely
          unknown in "Eastern Rite" kingdoms. Why is this. Well it has to do
          with the literature put out by the Early Berkley group. The East
          Kingdom was set up by people who read the SCA literature ca AS III
          and interpretted recreating the "Middle Ages" as being doing
          Normans and Saxons ala the Battle of Hastings and other historically
          medieval stuff. This is complicated by the Eastern notion of "persona"
          which emerged early on and a couple of early Eastern kings who
          recreated: Japan, Scotland and the Magreb (North Africa).

          Regardless, a commonly shared fantasy has not been a part of the
          Society for several decades now. Neither has any real geographical
          limit. The Society has enough problems with holding a temporal limit.
          Many of the "bright ideas" in the Society involve introducing 19th
          or 20th century ideas, activities or artifacts into our events and
          publications. Introducing demonstrably extant 16th century or earlier
          Japanese into Society events in my opinion pales by comparison. This
          is especially the case as East Asian artifacts and what naught clearly
          made it into Western European Medieval and Renaissance Society. This
          includes all sorts of things (such as folding fans invented in Japan
          mind you) often associated with Western European groups and people
          such as Spanish ladies.

          Underlying all of this is a conflict of interest between fantasy and
          history in the Society. Ultimately though, fantasy is unstable in
          the Society as it has developed. An open polycultural Society can
          not support consistent fantasy and is much better at supporting
          individual research which is what our Society has actually done.
          However, the urge for fantasy which persists in our Society is
          ultimately behind both the "visitors" attempt at "holding the line"
          and behind the often heard calls to "improve" the Society by turning
          it into a narow focus re-enactment group. Neither of these movements
          will succeed as both require that the Society jetison far too much
          (and possibly the majority) of its collective membership and expertise.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar


          --
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          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
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        • Kass McGann
          ... limit. I must concurr with your view of this visitor thing as silly, Solveig. I particularly like His Grace Cariadoc s view on the subject. We wouldn t
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 11 7:31 AM
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            > Regardless, a commonly shared fantasy has not been a part of the
            > Society for several decades now. Neither has any real geographical
            > limit. The Society has enough problems with holding a temporal
            limit.

            I must concurr with your view of this "visitor" thing as silly,
            Solveig. I particularly like His Grace Cariadoc's view on the
            subject. We wouldn't know who each other was so a 16th century
            Englishman would look as strange as a Turk to a 10th century Anglo-
            Saxon, regardless of the fact that they come from the same land.

            A friend of mine out in the Outlands once described the SCA as what
            Heaven must be like -- people of all time periods and nationalities
            coming together and somehow able to speak and understand each other.

            The perception that everyone in the "West" would have recognized each
            other or even been able to communicate is also a myth. Granted,
            there was more commonality of language between French and English,
            for instance, than between French and Japanese, but to someone who
            has never seen an Italian, the Japanese wouldn't be any more strange
            I don't think.

            So all this "vistors" nonsense be damned. In the SCA we strive
            to "Play at who we really are". Let's just do that.

            Sincerely,
            Fujiwara no Aoi-hime

            DISCLAIMER: this does NOT, however, mean that I condone making
            things up that didn't exist historically.
          • elmar schmeisser
            ... Well, for a while in Trimaris, long and long ago, Baron Taliesen came up with the idea that sort-of combined the above concepts of visitor, heaven, history
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 11 10:41 AM
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              --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, "Kass McGann" <historian@r...> wrote:
              > > Regardless, a commonly shared fantasy has not been a part of the
              > > Society for several decades now.
              ...
              > A friend of mine out in the Outlands once described the SCA as what
              > Heaven must be like -- people of all time periods and nationalities
              > coming together and somehow able to speak and understand each other.
              ...
              > DISCLAIMER: this does NOT, however, mean that I condone making
              > things up that didn't exist historically.

              Well, for a while in Trimaris, long and long ago, Baron Taliesen came
              up with the idea that sort-of combined the above concepts of visitor,
              heaven, history and shared fantasy: the idea that each and every
              persona was historically consistent with itself and its surroundings
              until it fell through the fabric of the universe into the land of
              FAERIE (i.e. the SCA).

              What I like about this is that it allows the most historically
              painstaking to really re-enact eveerything they can, and then to
              display it to all without jarring, and it also provides space for
              those "born" in FAERIE to be amorphously medieval (i.e. those without
              personas outside of their SCA history, so to speak). Even more
              poetically, in a sense it is true - we live in a fairyland (the SCA)
              trying to "remember" where "we" came from (in time and space before
              1600). The only constraint we need is what we have done: put
              spatial
              and temporal boundaries on the gate/hole/spatial-rip that we all fell
              through. And it also allows for the "true" non-mundane history of
              the
              SCA itself - our roll of kings and our order of precedence, etc.

              - seamus/jutte (elmar)
            • Kass McGann
              ... came ... visitor, ... surroundings ... without ... SCA) ... fell ... A very good point, Seamus. It sure seems to fit what the SCA is. It s just that even
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 11 11:49 AM
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                > Well, for a while in Trimaris, long and long ago, Baron Taliesen
                came
                > up with the idea that sort-of combined the above concepts of
                visitor,
                > heaven, history and shared fantasy: the idea that each and every
                > persona was historically consistent with itself and its
                surroundings
                > until it fell through the fabric of the universe into the land of
                > FAERIE (i.e. the SCA).
                >
                > What I like about this is that it allows the most historically
                > painstaking to really re-enact eveerything they can, and then to
                > display it to all without jarring, and it also provides space for
                > those "born" in FAERIE to be amorphously medieval (i.e. those
                without
                > personas outside of their SCA history, so to speak). Even more
                > poetically, in a sense it is true - we live in a fairyland (the
                SCA)
                > trying to "remember" where "we" came from (in time and space before
                > 1600). The only constraint we need is what we have done: put
                > spatial
                > and temporal boundaries on the gate/hole/spatial-rip that we all
                fell
                > through. And it also allows for the "true" non-mundane history of
                > the
                > SCA itself - our roll of kings and our order of precedence, etc.
                >
                > - seamus/jutte (elmar)

                A very good point, Seamus. It sure seems to fit what the SCA is.
                It's just that even mention of the word "faerie" has come to make my
                skin crawl (becuase of its association with pointy ears).

                Certainly we are not historical re-enactors, as much as I would like
                us to be. And frankly, the fact that we are not that strict allows
                us to function as we do. I participate in historical re-enactment
                outside of the SCA and we simply don't have the numbers to do the
                kinds of things that the SCA can do -- like Pennsic.

                Oh, but if we could... We could do Sekigahara!!!

                <sigh>

                Aoi
              • Barbara Nostrand
                Noble Cousins! Well, long before the battle of Sekigahara (1600), there were lots of other interesting and much more poetic battles, disturbances, small wars,
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 11 12:44 PM
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                  Noble Cousins!

                  Well, long before the battle of Sekigahara (1600), there were lots of
                  other interesting and much more poetic battles, disturbances, small
                  wars, &c.

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar
                  --
                  +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
                  | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                  | de Moivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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                • Barbara Nostrand
                  Baron Edward! It just seemed odd to have a Heian lady pining for a battle that occured in 1600 when there was so much interesting (and certainly more poetic)
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 11 2:04 PM
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                    Baron Edward!

                    It just seemed odd to have a Heian lady pining for a battle that occured
                    in 1600 when there was so much interesting (and certainly more poetic)
                    stuff that happened rather earlier.

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar
                    --
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                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
                    | de Moivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                  • bambooni@aol.com
                    In a message dated 7/11/00 3:10:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... That would be great!!!!! Takabayashi Genpachi
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 11 2:44 PM
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                      In a message dated 7/11/00 3:10:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      historian@... writes:

                      > Oh, but if we could... We could do Sekigahara!!!
                      >
                      > <sigh>
                      >
                      > Aoi
                      >
                      That would be great!!!!!

                      Takabayashi Genpachi
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... But none so large and few so historically critical to Japan s history. What s your point? Effingham
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 11 2:55 PM
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                        Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                        > Noble Cousins!
                        >
                        > Well, long before the battle of Sekigahara (1600), there were lots of
                        > other interesting and much more poetic battles, disturbances, small
                        > wars, &c.

                        But none so large and few so historically critical to Japan's history.

                        What's your point?

                        Effingham
                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... Ah, okay. I just figured if one were pining for a good battle one d go for a big one. (Maybe that s an XY vs. XX chromosome thing... ) Effingham
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 11 3:12 PM
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                          Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                          > Baron Edward!
                          >
                          > It just seemed odd to have a Heian lady pining for a battle that occured
                          > in 1600 when there was so much interesting (and certainly more poetic)
                          > stuff that happened rather earlier.

                          Ah, okay.

                          I just figured if one were pining for a good battle one'd go for a big one.
                          (Maybe that's an XY vs. XX chromosome thing... )


                          Effingham
                        • Kass McGann
                          ... occured ... poetic) ... It s odd to have a Heian lady pining for ANY battle... I must admit, it was Kass who welled up and pined for a full-scale battle
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 12 5:41 AM
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                            --- In sca-jml@egroups.com, Barbara Nostrand <nostrand@a...> wrote:
                            > Baron Edward!
                            >
                            > It just seemed odd to have a Heian lady pining for a battle that
                            occured
                            > in 1600 when there was so much interesting (and certainly more
                            poetic)
                            > stuff that happened rather earlier.


                            It's odd to have a Heian lady pining for ANY battle...

                            I must admit, it was Kass who welled up and pined for a full-scale
                            battle re-enactment, not Fujiwara.

                            I'll go back to my dark corner now,
                            Kass
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