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Re: nunchaku

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  • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
    Konnichi wa, tomodachi, There is also the safty problem of Holds . In normal SCA combat, when a hold is yelled, there is a reasonable expectation that a
    Message 1 of 16 , May 2, 2004
      Konnichi wa, tomodachi,
      There is also the safty problem of "Holds". In normal SCA combat, when
      a hold is yelled, there is a reasonable expectation that a combatant
      with his hands actually on a weapon can check the movement of the
      weapon. Someone's helmet may have come off, someone's grill may have
      broken...someone's child or dog may have inadvertently wandered into
      the list.
      A fighter in control of a weapon can stop his weapon with a degree of
      control.
      A flail weapon, hinged on a rope or chain becomes a projectile that
      generates tremendous force on the outward edges of the weapon...and
      cannot be stopped without redirecting the motion. There is also a
      difficult to controll Bounceback factor.
      Trained martial artists "may" be able to control the end of a flailing
      weapon with a degree of accuracy...but the physics are still there. If
      we, as SCA combatants are able to dent 14 guage helmets with mere
      wrist snaps and high-elbo wraps (I have seen it...look at all the
      dinged up helmets out there) then imaging the forces generated by a
      flail in hands like that...
      Also imagine if it were your helmet that just poped its chin strap and
      your head was in the path of someones flail weapon...
      Hold!!! you yell...dink...
      You get the point.
      Wrists are terribly fragile critters, and a wrist pinched in the
      chains or ropes of a flail can become seriously injures...as could necks.
      To answer your question, "No - Flail weapons are not a viable SCA
      weapon, and will likely never be.
      "
      Respectful thoughts -
      Date Saburou Yukiie
      Yama Kaminari Ryu
      Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
      http://www.kabutographics.com (under reconstruction)





      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ii Saburou <logan@m...> wrote:
      > I do not believe anything that is a 'flail' is allowed because of
      fears of
      > safety--which I can understand. First of all, you don't want
      someone to
      > get entangled by the flail, second I would worry about the physics
      of how
      > hard a flail would hit, and third I worry about the lack of control
      most
      > people would have on it.
      >
      > But I could be wrong.
      >
      > -Ii
      >
      > On Sun, 2 May 2004, darkfiregeist wrote:
      >
      > > i'm not entirely sure how to phrase this, so if i jumble it all up i
      > > apologize. i was discussing alternate weapons to be used in SCA
      > > combat when the subject of nunchaku(sp?) came up. it was an
      > > interesting idea, but i'm not sure that it is SCA legal at all. I'm
      > > not planning on using them for SCA fighting, or even attempting to
      > > use them, but i was still curious on where they would stand. any
      > > comment on this would be appreciated.
      > > thanks
    • Andrew Leitch
      On the issue of a tetsubo being just like the rattan we use... If they are just like the rattan we use, then a blow of sufficient force to disable (if it was a
      Message 2 of 16 , May 2, 2004
        On the issue of a tetsubo being just like the rattan we use... If they are
        just like the rattan we use, then a blow of sufficient force to disable (if
        it was a sword) will not be good enough to disable (if its just a piece of
        wood). Does that make any sense?

        For a tetsubo blow to be effective, it would have to stun or cripple an
        opponent on a good shot. Now that I think of it though, a tetsubo is a
        piece of wood with iron plate facings. So it is a mass weapon, I guess....

        As to flails:

        The problem with "a fighter in control of his weapon can stop his weapon
        with a degree of control" is that just about everyone I know, knights
        included, coudn't *completely* stop a blow from hitting a vulnerable spot
        on another fighter, let alone a passing child, or dog, or whatever ...

        Most people with a reasonable level of skill can "pull" a blow, though -
        that is, significantly reduce its impact. So that a rib-cracking shot gets
        turned into a stinging bruise. I've seen it happen and I've done it - when
        you've already won the bout and the follow up stroke isn't necessary or if
        its going to hit them in a nicely unarmoured spot. Its just plain courtesy
        (IMHO) to pull a blow and save your opponent unnecessary pain - especially
        if they're of the calibre that know when they've been let of lightly and
        will cede the bout as a result.

        In wars, there's nothing to stop a rubber headed arrow shaft in flight when
        a Hold is called. There's nothing to stop a javelin in flight. There's
        nothing to stop a thrown axe.

        Sword blows can only be pulled at best.

        I'm sure (in the way that one can only be sure about something one's never
        done) that anyone with a decent level of proficiency with a
        hypthetically-legal-SCA-flail could shoot their arm off to the side and
        change its arc at the last moment. I would think though, that flails, like
        long spears/pikes would require a separate authorisation if they were
        brought in. Though I don't think that day is anywhere soon.... :)

        - Andre



        Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie writes:

        > Konnichi wa, tomodachi,
        > There is also the safty problem of "Holds". In normal SCA combat, when
        > a hold is yelled, there is a reasonable expectation that a combatant
        > with his hands actually on a weapon can check the movement of the
        > weapon. Someone's helmet may have come off, someone's grill may have
        > broken...someone's child or dog may have inadvertently wandered into
        > the list.
        > A fighter in control of a weapon can stop his weapon with a degree of
        > control.
        > A flail weapon, hinged on a rope or chain becomes a projectile that
        > generates tremendous force on the outward edges of the weapon...and
        > cannot be stopped without redirecting the motion. There is also a
        > difficult to controll Bounceback factor.
        > Trained martial artists "may" be able to control the end of a flailing
        > weapon with a degree of accuracy...but the physics are still there. If
        > we, as SCA combatants are able to dent 14 guage helmets with mere
        > wrist snaps and high-elbo wraps (I have seen it...look at all the
        > dinged up helmets out there) then imaging the forces generated by a
        > flail in hands like that...
        > Also imagine if it were your helmet that just poped its chin strap and
        > your head was in the path of someones flail weapon...
        > Hold!!! you yell...dink...
        > You get the point.
        > Wrists are terribly fragile critters, and a wrist pinched in the
        > chains or ropes of a flail can become seriously injures...as could necks.
        > To answer your question, "No - Flail weapons are not a viable SCA
        > weapon, and will likely never be.
        > "
        > Respectful thoughts -
        > Date Saburou Yukiie
        > Yama Kaminari Ryu
        > Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
        > http://www.kabutographics.com (under reconstruction)
        >
        >
        >
      • kegage
        I think I can help here, as it is that I was there when these rules were made, and may have been part of the reason for one of them. 1. Flail type weapons:
        Message 3 of 16 , May 2, 2004
          I think I can help here, as it is that I was there when these rules
          were made, and may have been part of the reason for one of them.
          1. Flail type weapons: There are several reasons these are not allowed
          and all have been mentioned. The two main reasons though are that A.)
          The mass plus momentum of the weapon makes it either inherently
          unsafe, or ineffective due to it being too light. In other words the
          striking end of the weapon was too heavy and could cause real damage,
          or was too light and would hit to light to call and was hard to
          control to boot. The light version also could be whipped around, well,
          like a bullwhip, and, so, was easy to use in a way very inconsistent
          to the actual weapon. B.) The length of "chain" did have a tendency to
          wrap around things and could be dangerous. I am sure that these
          problems have been worked on throughout the years, and if someone
          comes up with a safe weapon the marshalate will be happy to look at it.
          2.Double ended polearms, Quarter-staffs: A.)Double ended polearms: I
          think I may have been part of the reason for this rule. I have one in
          my basement. During a demo back in the mid-seventies I picked up a
          fighter about a foot in the air and they landed three feet away from
          me on their back, from what felt, to me, as a medium strength
          upper-cut blow. Yes, they were okay. They just had the breath knocked
          out of them. The marshalate feels that these weapons are just plain
          dangerous. At the time, the not period reason was also used.
          Rememeber, at the time, they were only thinking european weapons.
          Again, come up with a safe, period weapon and the marshalate may look
          at it. B.)Quarterstaffs: Essentially it is considered a non-lethal
          weapon to armored combatants. You can debate the historical reality
          all day long and I don't think it is going to change the marshalate's
          mind.

          Remember, with any of these types of weapons certain things are
          considered after safety. Mainly, the likelihood as to whether the
          weapon would be commonly used in either an armored tourney or war.
          Since both quarterstaffs and nunchaku (above and beyond the flail
          aspects) are considered non-leathal to armored combatants and would
          not normally be used in armored tourney or war I think it would be be
          hard to get them approved.

          Waffle

          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "darkfiregeist" <darkfiregeist@y...>
          wrote:
          > i'm not entirely sure how to phrase this, so if i jumble it all up i
          > apologize. i was discussing alternate weapons to be used in SCA
          > combat when the subject of nunchaku(sp?) came up. it was an
          > interesting idea, but i'm not sure that it is SCA legal at all. I'm
          > not planning on using them for SCA fighting, or even attempting to
          > use them, but i was still curious on where they would stand. any
          > comment on this would be appreciated.
          > thanks
        • Otagiri Tatsuzou
          ... Looking at this from another angle, nunchaku are not a weapon that Japanese warriors used in history. There are other chain weapons that made an appearance
          Message 4 of 16 , May 2, 2004
            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "darkfiregeist" <darkfiregeist@y...>
            wrote:
            > i'm not entirely sure how to phrase this, so if i jumble it all up i
            > apologize. i was discussing alternate weapons to be used in SCA
            > combat when the subject of nunchaku(sp?) came up. it was an
            > interesting idea, but i'm not sure that it is SCA legal at all. I'm
            > not planning on using them for SCA fighting, or even attempting to
            > use them, but i was still curious on where they would stand. any
            > comment on this would be appreciated.
            > thanks

            Looking at this from another angle, nunchaku are not a weapon that
            Japanese warriors used in history. There are other chain weapons that
            made an appearance in the Muromachi, were studied by some bushi, and
            appear to have been effective. The kusarigama for one. The classic
            nunchaku is a weapon of Okinawan insurgents. I suppose there may be a
            Japanese flail that might have been used by Japanese peasants in
            distress. The Koreans used a heavy flail as a primary weapon, so
            Muromachi bushi would have at least heard of it.
          • Ii Saburou
            ... Sorry, I m not sure if you are talking aobut my comments, but I meant to equate a rattan tetsubo to any other rattan stick weapon we use in the SCA. That
            Message 5 of 16 , May 2, 2004
              On Sun, 2 May 2004, Andrew Leitch wrote:

              > On the issue of a tetsubo being just like the rattan we use... If they are
              > just like the rattan we use, then a blow of sufficient force to disable (if
              > it was a sword) will not be good enough to disable (if its just a piece of
              > wood). Does that make any sense?

              Sorry, I'm not sure if you are talking aobut my comments, but I meant to
              equate a rattan tetsubo to any other rattan stick weapon we use in the
              SCA. That is, in the end it is a long piece of rattan (rather than the
              actual weapon just being a piece of rattan).

              -Ii
            • Solveig
              Lord Andre! Greetings from Solveig! Why are you arguing so strenuously in this forum for weapons which are virtually never seen in Japanese battle paintings?
              Message 6 of 16 , May 2, 2004
                Lord Andre!

                Greetings from Solveig! Why are you arguing so strenuously in this forum
                for weapons which are virtually never seen in Japanese battle paintings?
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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              • sigrune@aol.com
                Also it should be pointed out that when testubo were in vogue, if that can realy be said, the helmets of japanese warriors were not as heavy, nor were they
                Message 7 of 16 , May 2, 2004
                  Also it should be pointed out that when testubo were in vogue, if that can realy be said, the helmets of japanese warriors were not as heavy, nor were they designed to reduce great impacts from a fairly massive weapon, they were designed to prevent lethal or debilitating damage from arrows, and possibly the swords. They were made of a much thinner gauage of steel, which was also from my understanding harder than mild steel. Tetsubo were known to cause helmets to literaly come apart at the seams due to their construction.

                  That being said I can only think of one or maybe two tales describing people being subdued by them, I wonder how common the would be on the battlefield. I also seem to notice they appear alot on walls in castles and gatehouses. Maybe it realy only validated it's use in indoor/seige warfare. I'd hate to be the first up a ladder or stairway if there was a bad guy at the top with one of those.

                  -Mike
                • Andrew Leitch
                  Idle curiosity. I didn t notice that I was either pro or con... And besides... I like to argue. Its how the truth is discovered if its done in the right
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 3, 2004
                    Idle curiosity. I didn't notice that I was either pro or con...

                    And besides... I like to argue. Its how the truth is discovered if its done
                    in the right spirit. ;)

                    - Andre

                    PS: Oh, alright. It might be a little influence from seeing some friends of
                    mine playing a certain roleplaying game called "Legend of the 5 Rings". A
                    pseudo Sengoku-jidai game that is at once sublime in its insight, and truly
                    appalling in its fostering of eastern stereotypes.

                    Solveig writes:

                    > Lord Andre!
                    >
                    > Greetings from Solveig! Why are you arguing so strenuously in this forum
                    > for weapons which are virtually never seen in Japanese battle paintings?
                    > --
                    >
                  • John Mooers
                    3rd Day, 5th Month. Andre-tono, When we research and recreate the combative skills of the orient or occident we must also keep our safety in mind. These
                    Message 9 of 16 , May 3, 2004
                      3rd Day, 5th Month.
                      Andre-tono,
                      When we research and recreate the combative skills of the orient or occident we must also keep our safety in mind. These skills and weapons were designed to and did inflict leathal force upon their targets. Having hit and been hit for 20 years and suffered a few hits from experiemental flails in the past I must concurr with the Marshallate and reinforce my brother Yukiie's point. While a thrown or missile weapon in flight cannot be stopped during a hold they do not generate the same level of force a rattan weapon does regardless of the tension device used with no body mass is behind the blow. One cannot deflect the arc of a flail weapon safely enough in the press of melee and if damaged, no one can halt the movement of the head toward it's target once detached from the chain or handle. We require safety straps for one handed weapons for this reason amongst others. Also remember we are "guests" of our Occidental friends in the SCA and some weapons of the orient will not
                      conform easily or at all to the Rules of the List. Your point that some or many fighters cannot pull their blows is well taken. Catastrophic kabuto himo failure has and will happen on the field. Honorable gentles will still throw their bodies over the suddenly helmetless to protect them and dishonorable churls will still throw excessively hard or uncontrolled blows to win at any cost - and without honor. Throw flail and huge mass weapons into the mix and someone is going to really die. I do not wish to injure or maim my fellows, just enjoy our pastime.
                      Date no Genshiro Toshinobu
                      Yama Kaminari Ryu

                      Somewhere off the coast of Trimeris

                      Andrew Leitch <kinder@...> wrote:

                      On the issue of a tetsubo being just like the rattan we use... If they are
                      just like the rattan we use, then a blow of sufficient force to disable (if
                      it was a sword) will not be good enough to disable (if its just a piece of
                      wood). Does that make any sense?

                      For a tetsubo blow to be effective, it would have to stun or cripple an
                      opponent on a good shot. Now that I think of it though, a tetsubo is a
                      piece of wood with iron plate facings. So it is a mass weapon, I guess....

                      As to flails:

                      The problem with "a fighter in control of his weapon can stop his weapon
                      with a degree of control" is that just about everyone I know, knights
                      included, coudn't *completely* stop a blow from hitting a vulnerable spot
                      on another fighter, let alone a passing child, or dog, or whatever ...

                      Most people with a reasonable level of skill can "pull" a blow, though -
                      that is, significantly reduce its impact. So that a rib-cracking shot gets
                      turned into a stinging bruise. I've seen it happen and I've done it - when
                      you've already won the bout and the follow up stroke isn't necessary or if
                      its going to hit them in a nicely unarmoured spot. Its just plain courtesy
                      (IMHO) to pull a blow and save your opponent unnecessary pain - especially
                      if they're of the calibre that know when they've been let of lightly and
                      will cede the bout as a result.

                      In wars, there's nothing to stop a rubber headed arrow shaft in flight when
                      a Hold is called. There's nothing to stop a javelin in flight. There's
                      nothing to stop a thrown axe.

                      Sword blows can only be pulled at best.

                      I'm sure (in the way that one can only be sure about something one's never
                      done) that anyone with a decent level of proficiency with a
                      hypthetically-legal-SCA-flail could shoot their arm off to the side and
                      change its arc at the last moment. I would think though, that flails, like
                      long spears/pikes would require a separate authorisation if they were
                      brought in. Though I don't think that day is anywhere soon.... :)

                      - Andre



                      Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie writes:

                      > Konnichi wa, tomodachi,
                      > There is also the safty problem of "Holds". In normal SCA combat, when
                      > a hold is yelled, there is a reasonable expectation that a combatant
                      > with his hands actually on a weapon can check the movement of the
                      > weapon. Someone's helmet may have come off, someone's grill may have
                      > broken...someone's child or dog may have inadvertently wandered into
                      > the list.
                      > A fighter in control of a weapon can stop his weapon with a degree of
                      > control.
                      > A flail weapon, hinged on a rope or chain becomes a projectile that
                      > generates tremendous force on the outward edges of the weapon...and
                      > cannot be stopped without redirecting the motion. There is also a
                      > difficult to controll Bounceback factor.
                      > Trained martial artists "may" be able to control the end of a flailing
                      > weapon with a degree of accuracy...but the physics are still there. If
                      > we, as SCA combatants are able to dent 14 guage helmets with mere
                      > wrist snaps and high-elbo wraps (I have seen it...look at all the
                      > dinged up helmets out there) then imaging the forces generated by a
                      > flail in hands like that...
                      > Also imagine if it were your helmet that just poped its chin strap and
                      > your head was in the path of someones flail weapon...
                      > Hold!!! you yell...dink...
                      > You get the point.
                      > Wrists are terribly fragile critters, and a wrist pinched in the
                      > chains or ropes of a flail can become seriously injures...as could necks.
                      > To answer your question, "No - Flail weapons are not a viable SCA
                      > weapon, and will likely never be.
                      > "
                      > Respectful thoughts -
                      > Date Saburou Yukiie
                      > Yama Kaminari Ryu
                      > Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
                      > http://www.kabutographics.com (under reconstruction)
                      >
                      >
                      >


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                    • Andrew Leitch
                      Toshinobu-dono, Interesting reply. Am I really coming across as if I have some kind of vested interest in all of this? I know that I ve got a bit of an
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 3, 2004
                        Toshinobu-dono,

                        Interesting reply. Am I really coming across as if I have some kind of
                        vested interest in all of this? I know that I've got a bit of an
                        anti-authoritarian streak in me, so I can be a little "contrary" at times.

                        Its just an *idea* I have - that it might be possible to make an SCA legal
                        flail or morningstar (though not a nunchaku, or course...). I'm not out to
                        hurt people or take risks at other people's expense. Its just that when
                        someone tells me I *can't* do something, my natural reaction is to at least
                        ask why... and if I'm not satsified with the answer, to try and do it
                        anyway. :)

                        That said, I'm not actually interested in doing that right now. I'm too
                        absorbed with the latest fechtbuch to worry about building the perfect
                        flail (one day though, I just *know* it can be done....:)).

                        And of course we must keep our safety in mind. When someone suggests we
                        try something new and dangerous (like grappling or grabbing swords for
                        instance), I'm usually the first to say "no way"! I've got a regular job to
                        do that involves me being on call to restrain someone at a moment's notice.
                        I can't really afford to carry around any injuries. However, if it can be
                        proved to me that a new weapon or technique can be used safely, then I'm
                        all for it.

                        snip

                        "Also remember we are "guests" of our Occidental friends in the SCA and
                        some weapons of the orient will not conform easily or at all to the Rules
                        of the List."

                        snip

                        Ahhh... actually, I'm one of those "Occidental friends" at the moment. :)
                        I've been playing a Frenchman for the last seven years. But don't worry,
                        I'm not about to put together my oriental persona, march out onto the field
                        with a dangerous tetsubo or nunchaku or other untried weapon and demand
                        that people accept my weapon along with my new persona - thus ruining for
                        everyone else who wants to be Japanese. :p

                        Anyway... I'm perhaps getting a little overwrought over nothing. Sorry if I
                        got anyone else worried that I was about to test my opinions about the
                        potential safety of flails or tetsubos by trying one out on an unsuspecting
                        opponent at the next tourney. I'm sure my knight and my lady would be most
                        displeased if I did.

                        - Andre le hyakusho
                      • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
                        Konnichi wa, tomodachi, Having replied earlier, I think it might be of interest that I once convinced a local Marshalate to let me try, under rigid
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 3, 2004
                          Konnichi wa, tomodachi,
                          Having replied earlier, I think it might be of interest that I once
                          convinced a local Marshalate to let me try, under "rigid
                          restrictions..." the use of an SCA version of a san setu bo - a
                          chinese style three sectional staff.
                          I was under no conditions allowed to flail it, or use it in "pinching
                          manouvers..."...but I was allowed to use it under trial conditins as a
                          sort of two weapon with a connected brace in the center.
                          I am well versed in real three sectional staff use, and know probably
                          all of the real applications for the thing. Knowing such, I was
                          allowed to "confine myself" to using only certain aspects of the weapon.
                          Did Samurai use it? - no. Could it be lethal against an armored
                          opponent? I doubt it would be any more effective than any other real
                          wooden weapon...
                          Was it fun? Hells yes!
                          The experiment went on for a summer, and I have to say, even trained
                          in the real uses, it was often "tempting" to use it beyond the SCA
                          constraints impositions...
                          In the end, we gave it up as an interesting, but not particularly
                          productive experiment.
                          No one was harmed, and all went well. I like experimental weapons
                          forms - provided all possible "safty measures" are accounted for.

                          Date Saburou Yukiie
                          Yama Kaminari Ryu
                          Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave
                          http://www.kabutographics (still under re-construction)

                          >
                          > Interesting reply. Am I really coming across as if I have some kind of
                          > vested interest in all of this? I know that I've got a bit of an
                          > anti-authoritarian streak in me, so I can be a little "contrary" at
                          times.
                          >
                          > Its just an *idea* I have - that it might be possible to make an SCA
                          legal
                          > flail or morningstar (though not a nunchaku, or course...) <hacked
                          the rest off...>
                        • Ii Saburou
                          I guess my thought on the whole experimental weapons is that you can do just about any weapon, up to live steel, as long as your rules and skill required fit
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 3, 2004
                            I guess my thought on the whole experimental weapons is that you can do
                            just about any weapon, up to live steel, as long as your rules and skill
                            required fit that weapon. SCA goes for LCD, so we tend to not allow a lot
                            of weapons, require lots of armor, and carefully define where people can
                            and cannot hit.

                            Kendo, Fencing, and Atarashii Naginata have solved many problems (and
                            created others) by making light weapons and teaching people to control
                            themselves.

                            Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo, from what I've seen, teaches control, has set forms,
                            but allows for variations on the forms as skill level increases to deal
                            with threatening situations.

                            Nakamura Ryu Happo Giri Toho relegates combat to two-man forms (kumitachi)
                            where the 'combatants' are doing set moves. As skill increases, live
                            blades are used.

                            Just a bit of comparison. All of them have their points and flaws, and it
                            has a lot to do with how things are meant to be. I do wish that we could
                            do more 'dojo' like classes with real or wooden weapons, test cutting, and
                            choreographed demos, and then have another part of the SCA for tournament
                            fighting, but because of the problems regulating such things, only the
                            last is really done all that much in the SCA (although the rules do not
                            strictly prohibit the others, if I read them correctly).

                            -Ii
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