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Building a Persona: who were the architects and artisians?

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  • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
    I m not exactly sure how to phrase this but I m working on coming up with a persona and one of the things I m interested in is architecture (possibly because
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 23, 2004
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      I'm not exactly sure how to phrase this but I'm working on coming up with a persona
      and one of the things I'm interested in is architecture (possibly because my father in
      an architect so I grew up with a respect for the career). And during the feudal era in
      Japan, great castles were constructed and with the focus on aestetics and the sort,
      obviously, someone needs to design them.

      So where in the social hierarchy would someone like an architect fall? Since I am a
      girl, when creating a persona, this would be 'something father would do' but I'm also
      mimicking the clothing of the aristocrats (red hakama, robe etc.) so would an
      architect even be a respectable profession for an aristocratic man? I could see
      perhaps a military man being an expert for designing castles....

      Yeah, this is a weird question but I've dug into my East Asian Civ books and can't find
      an answer. Also, if there architectophiles out there, nows a good chance to show off
      your savvy. (:

      Thanks.
    • Ii Saburou
      ... As I recall, Kato Kiyomasa was considered quite an engineer as far as castle design. From my understanding of Japanese culture and history, I imagine you
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 24, 2004
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        On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 Booknerd9@... wrote:

        > So where in the social hierarchy would someone like an architect fall? Since I am a
        > girl, when creating a persona, this would be 'something father would do' but I'm also
        > mimicking the clothing of the aristocrats (red hakama, robe etc.) so would an
        > architect even be a respectable profession for an aristocratic man? I could see
        > perhaps a military man being an expert for designing castles....

        As I recall, Kato Kiyomasa was considered quite an engineer as far as
        castle design.

        From my understanding of Japanese culture and history, I imagine you could
        be an architect at just about any level. Aristocrats and high-level
        warriors would be supervisors, usually, with lower level people doing the
        actual work. The supervisor may or may not have any knowledge or interest
        in what he's doing because it is probably more a political post than
        anything else.

        On the other hand, good engineers made a name for themselves, especially
        later on, and I believe were in the same area as swordsmiths as far as
        rank.

        Of course, if I'm wrong, hopefully someone will have a better answer!

        -Ii
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        Folks: If you have the spondoolicks to spend and an interest in REALLY early Japanese armour, e-bay has something for you. A rare -- VERY VERY VERY RARE --
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 26, 2004
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          Folks:

          If you have the spondoolicks to spend and an interest in REALLY early Japanese
          armour, e-bay has something for you.

          A rare -- VERY VERY VERY RARE -- book called "Nihon Jôdai no Katchû" (Japan's
          Ancient Armour), written by the noble and godlike historian and armour
          researcher Suenaga dai-sensei, is up for sale.

          I have a copy -- one of the two or three in the US, I think. (Mine was once the
          property of the Imperial Naval Academy Library, but that was in another world).

          The book details all the armour bits excavated from kofun up to 1944, when the
          book was published. Moreover, the book is full of photos of the full-sized
          reproductions of the armour made by Suenaga.

          Most of the print run, as I understand it, was bombed out of existence, so this
          is a goldmine to find one here. If you're interested in pre-800 armour, you MUST
          have this book.

          It is E-bay auction item 3909701273. Check it out.

          Effingham
        • Eric
          ... you could ... level ... doing the ... interest ... than ... I have limited knowledge, but I would concur. There is also the phenomenon of nobles, and later
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 28, 2004
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Ii Saburou <logan@m...> wrote:

            > From my understanding of Japanese culture and history, I imagine
            you could
            > be an architect at just about any level. Aristocrats and high-
            level
            > warriors would be supervisors, usually, with lower level people
            doing the
            > actual work. The supervisor may or may not have any knowledge or
            interest
            > in what he's doing because it is probably more a political post
            than
            > anything else.

            I have limited knowledge, but I would concur. There is also the
            phenomenon of nobles, and later on, high-ranking samurai acting as
            patrons for the construction of temples. I am not sure who was most
            likely to serve as a head architect on such civic projects, but I do
            know that some notable high-ranking people, like the priest Muso
            Soseki, took a great interest in architecture and garden design.
            Thus, it seems logical that your father could be of a high rank and
            either for political, egotistical, or spiritual reasons become a
            patron of a great building project of some sort.

            If you want your father to be a full-time engineer, I think you will
            have to settle for a lower rank however. Though this does not mean he
            would not have been wealthy or highly thought of. He would be like
            many western artists, living on his work and getting his gold from
            one or more wealthy patrons. In the castle period as a military
            architect, he would almost certainly hold rank in some daimyo's
            retinue and be bonded to him just like any other samurai. Effingham
            might be able to give us a guess as to what his Koku stipend would
            be.

            I think you should decide first what you want your persona to be
            doing, and at what time in history. Then let the other pieces fall
            into place.

            My 2 sen.

            - mokurai
          • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
            Thanks. I read online that a good way to figure out a persona is to figure out what you re interested and architecture/gardening/art is one of those things I m
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 28, 2004
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              Thanks. I read online that a good way to figure out a persona is to figure out what
              you're interested and architecture/gardening/art is one of those things I'm interested
              in (along with caligraphy, sewing and heraldry, yeah, Japan didn't have European
              heraldry but that doesn't mean I can't be interested.)

              And while I'm posting, mind if I ask a garb question?
              I have started working on my garb but I think I might have made a mistake. I saw this
              lovely silky fabric, red with an Asian butterfly motif that I absolutely fell head over
              heels for and decided that it would make a great trim for the edges of the kimono.
              Unfortunately, I don't know if this (ie trim) is period and if I should just stick to my
              nice pale yellow number[1] I have so far.

              Thanks again. (:



              [1]technically, its a synthetic linen look alike but mom wasn't shlepping with me all
              over the state. I love sewing so I'll probably go nuts making more authentic garb over
              the summer.
            • RavenRux@COX.NET
              There are many ways to chose a persona story. Myself, I chose a year of an infamous event (1297-Tokusei)as my birth year and have done research to bring my
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 28, 2004
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                There are many ways to chose a persona story. Myself, I chose a year of an infamous event (1297-Tokusei)as my birth year and have done research to bring my persona more inline with that time.

                My rationalization is this: People don't generally chose when they were born, rather they learn to live with it. By chosing a time more or less at random, I not only have to take the good with the bad, I also have to learn much more history in order to make it work.

                Masamune

                From: Booknerd9@...
                Date: 2004/04/28 Wed PM 01:27:51 EDT
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Building a Persona: architects (and a clothing question too)



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • mokurai
                ... That s the sort of thing I have written in the past. :-) It s a fine way to proceed. ... Not everything you do in SCA has to reflect your persona, not at
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 28, 2004
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                  At 01:27 PM 4/28/2004, you wrote:
                  >Thanks. I read online that a good way to figure out a persona is to figure
                  >out what
                  >you're interested

                  That's the sort of thing I have written in the past. :-) It's a fine way
                  to proceed.


                  >and architecture/gardening/art is one of those things I'm interested
                  >in (along with caligraphy, sewing and heraldry, yeah, Japan didn't have
                  >European
                  >heraldry but that doesn't mean I can't be interested.)

                  Not everything you do in SCA has to reflect your persona, not at all. Just
                  do me a favor and don't try to rationalize it saying something like "I
                  studied European heraldry under a Portuguese sailor who had the great
                  households of Europe tattooed across his chest..." Keep it in "SCA Time"
                  only.


                  >And while I'm posting, mind if I ask a garb question?
                  >I have started working on my garb but I think I might have made a mistake.
                  >I saw this
                  >lovely silky fabric, red with an Asian butterfly motif that I absolutely
                  >fell head over
                  >heels for and decided that it would make a great trim for the edges of the
                  >kimono.

                  Others will have better words, but since I'm here... Your gut instinct that
                  it may not be correct is probably quite right. I'd have to see the motif to
                  be sure, but it is likely a Chinese or South Asian design like one sees on
                  "china doll" dresses these days. The basic problems are that A. the motif
                  is too small and B. it is too ornate -- just doesn't have that
                  "Japaneseness" to the experienced eye.

                  In any case, the Japanese did not use trim really. If the fabric _does_
                  check out, it might be useful for a kosode collar (assuming very late,
                  Momoyama period) or as a lining. Or better yet, make it into a wrapper for
                  a precious art object such as your calligraphy tools, a tea caddy, Ikebana
                  vase, etc. This was a common practice and in late period exotic fabrics
                  from India and China (eve Europe) were prized. However, as stated, I
                  suspect it is not a very "right" looking fabric. Might be forgivable for a
                  wrapper or some camp project, but I wouldn't wear it.


                  >Unfortunately, I don't know if this (ie trim) is period and if I should
                  >just stick to my
                  >nice pale yellow number[1] I have so far.

                  Pale yellow sounds safer. ^_^ Though, you may want to look into seasonal
                  color combinations for women's garb. It was all about colors and seasons,
                  you see. I think my lady has a link on here someplace to some color combo
                  examples, or she has a write-up....

                  http://fibers.destinyslobster.com/Japanese/japindex.htm


                  May the Gods smile on your worthy efforts!

                  - mokurai
                • mokurai
                  ... Very interesting approach! But, to draw it to the ridiculous extreme, did you also then choose your family s station in life, location, etc. at random,
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 28, 2004
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                    At 01:42 PM 4/28/2004, you wrote:
                    >There are many ways to chose a persona story. Myself, I chose a year of
                    >an infamous event (1297-Tokusei)as my birth year and have done research to
                    >bring my persona more inline with that time.
                    >
                    >My rationalization is this: People don't generally chose when they were
                    >born, rather they learn to live with it. By chosing a time more or less
                    >at random, I not only have to take the good with the bad, I also have to
                    >learn much more history in order to make it work.

                    Very interesting approach! But, to draw it to the ridiculous extreme, did
                    you also then choose your family's station in life, location, etc. at
                    random, too? I think if you have generalized interests, this is a fine
                    idea, but I wouldn't expect someone who was passionate about a particular
                    activity or focus to do it. Hard to study Cha-Do in the Kofun. ^_~

                    Cheers,

                    - mo
                  • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                    ... Trust me, that was the farthest thing from my mind! I play role playing games (mostly white wolf) as a hobby and I ve seen a fare share of characters with
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 28, 2004
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                      >
                      > Not everything you do in SCA has to reflect your persona, not at all. Just
                      > do me a favor and don't try to rationalize it saying something like "I
                      > studied European heraldry under a Portuguese sailor who had the great
                      > households of Europe tattooed across his chest..." Keep it in "SCA Time"
                      > only.

                      Trust me, that was the farthest thing from my mind! I play role playing games (mostly
                      white wolf) as a hobby and I've seen a fare share of characters with the most jumbled
                      up insane back histories in a desperate attempt to rationalize why the character has
                      several dots of some rare martial art practiced only in the valleys of Nepal and has a
                      hosue in South Beach if said character is like a 16 year old Walgreens clerk from
                      Nebraska.... I'm interested in systems and categories so it'll be a SCA thing, I'm not
                      interested in history as much as rules, vocabulary and types.

                      >
                      > Others will have better words, but since I'm here... Your gut instinct that
                      > it may not be correct is probably quite right. I'd have to see the motif to
                      > be sure, but it is likely a Chinese or South Asian design like one sees on
                      > "china doll" dresses these days. The basic problems are that A. the motif
                      > is too small and B. it is too ornate -- just doesn't have that
                      > "Japaneseness" to the experienced eye.
                      >

                      *snif* ok. Bai bai lining. Well, I can probably use it to wrap up my dishes (they're
                      ceramic) and my chopsticks. It's really very pretty (:
                    • mokurai
                      ... Eh, don t give up yet. Compare it to some Period patterns in books. - mo
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 28, 2004
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                        >
                        > > Others will have better words, but since I'm here... Your gut instinct
                        > that
                        > > it may not be correct is probably quite right. I'd have to see the
                        > motif to
                        > > be sure, but it is likely a Chinese or South Asian design like one sees on
                        > > "china doll" dresses these days. The basic problems are that A. the motif
                        > > is too small and B. it is too ornate -- just doesn't have that
                        > > "Japaneseness" to the experienced eye.
                        > >
                        >
                        >*snif* ok. Bai bai lining. Well, I can probably use it to wrap up my
                        >dishes (they're
                        >ceramic) and my chopsticks. It's really very pretty (:

                        Eh, don't give up yet. Compare it to some Period patterns in books.

                        - mo
                      • mokurai
                        Cool. I d enjoy reading a write-up someday, if you re so inclined. - mokurai
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 28, 2004
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                          Cool. I'd enjoy reading a write-up someday, if you're so inclined.

                          - mokurai




                          At 03:38 PM 4/28/2004, you wrote:
                          >I didn't take it to that extreme, but my persona did start as a commoner
                          >(son of a papermaker).
                          >
                          >Masamune
                          >
                          >From: mokurai <mokurai@...>
                          >Date: 2004/04/28 Wed PM 02:15:34 EDT
                          >To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Building a Persona: architects (and a
                          > clothing question too)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Solveig
                          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Could I take a look at what you and Mokurai Bozu are discussing? Some Chinese and SE Asian stuff made it to Japan and was
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 28, 2004
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                            Noble Cousin!

                            Greetings from Solveig! Could I take a look at what you and Mokurai Bozu are
                            discussing? Some Chinese and SE Asian stuff made it to Japan and was used in
                            a variety of ways.
                            --

                            Your Humble Servant
                            Solveig Throndardottir
                            Amateur Scholar

                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          • mokurai
                            Well, that depends on the owner taking a photo of her fabric. I haven t seen it yet either. i am just related the probabilities. - mo
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 29, 2004
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                              Well, that depends on the owner taking a photo of her fabric. I haven't
                              seen it yet either. i am just related the probabilities.

                              - mo



                              At 02:40 AM 4/29/2004, you wrote:
                              >Noble Cousin!
                              >
                              >Greetings from Solveig! Could I take a look at what you and Mokurai Bozu are
                              >discussing? Some Chinese and SE Asian stuff made it to Japan and was used in
                              >a variety of ways.
                              >--
                              >
                              > Your Humble Servant
                              > Solveig Throndardottir
                              > Amateur Scholar
                              >
                              >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              >| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                              >| deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                              >| mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                              >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              >| Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                              >| the trash by my email filters. |
                              >+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >Yahoo! Groups Links
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                            • Booknerd9@yahoo.com
                              Here ya go, I was able to find a link to a picture of the fabric, even though its kinda a cruddy picture. I was using it as trim/collar and pretty much going
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 29, 2004
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                                Here ya go, I was able to find a link to a picture of the fabric, even though its kinda a
                                cruddy picture. I was using it as trim/collar and pretty much going down the lapels
                                etc.

                                http://www.sherrymama.com/SILKFABRIC06.jpg
                              • Elaine Koogler
                                It is quite lovely...but, as others have pointed out, it does have a Chinese feel to it. Kiri ... -- Learning is a lifetime journey...growing older merely adds
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 29, 2004
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                                  It is quite lovely...but, as others have pointed out, it does have a
                                  Chinese feel to it.

                                  Kiri

                                  Booknerd9@... wrote:

                                  > Here ya go, I was able to find a link to a picture of the fabric, even
                                  > though its kinda a
                                  > cruddy picture. I was using it as trim/collar and pretty much going
                                  > down the lapels
                                  > etc.
                                  >
                                  > http://www.sherrymama.com/SILKFABRIC06.jpg
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  knowledge and wisdom to curiosity.
                                  -- C.E. Lawrence



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Aden Steinke
                                  ... Missed the earlier post (1200+ junkmails/virus payloads in 2 days...) so not sure what period was being referred to but for the Muromachi period at least,
                                  Message 16 of 16 , May 1, 2004
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                                    >Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:09:26 -0400
                                    >From: Elaine Koogler
                                    >Subject: Re: Re: Building a Persona: architects (and a clothing question too)
                                    >
                                    >It is quite lovely...but, as others have pointed out, it does have a
                                    >Chinese feel to it.
                                    >
                                    >Kiri
                                    >
                                    >Booknerd9@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> Here ya go, I was able to find a link to a picture of the fabric, even
                                    >> though its kinda a
                                    >> cruddy picture. I was using it as trim/collar and pretty much going
                                    >> down the lapels
                                    >> etc.
                                    >>
                                    >>

                                    Missed the earlier post (1200+ junkmails/virus payloads in 2 days...) so not sure what period was being referred to but for the Muromachi period at least, Chinese material is ok - every trading or bribe for nominal submission ship from China had material - eg in 1407 the Ming emperor sent the grovelling Ahikaga Yorimitsu 10 rolls of silk brocade, 50 bales of fancy hemp thread of various colours, 30 rolls of thin la-silk, 20 rolls of light sha-silk and 300 rolls of fine silk of various colours as well as the coinage etc. Earlier, under the Fuijiwara, the extortion of China trade by taxing in kind was a great source of income for the governor general of Kyushu.

                                    So for aristocrats in period genuine Chinese material was often an option.



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