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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Gokenin

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  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... They had fiefs and incomes, remember. They had their own taxes to collect, just like everyone else. ... No; it was performed by the lords of the provinces
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
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      Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:


      > Who paid their stipends in the early sixteenth century when the
      > shogunate itself was broke?

      They had fiefs and incomes, remember. They had their own taxes to collect, just
      like everyone else.

      > Would Hideyoshi's sword-hunt and/or comprehensive land survey have
      > been performed by gokenin?

      No; it was performed by the lords of the provinces (and *their* retainers) under
      Hidyoshi's command.


      Effingham
    • Otagiri Tatsuzou
      ... collect, just ... All samurai had their own fiefs? Including garrison troops barracked in the city? What was the nature of the relation between a daimyo
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 3, 2004
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...> wrote:
        > Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:
        >
        >
        > > Who paid their stipends in the early sixteenth century when the
        > > shogunate itself was broke?
        >
        > They had fiefs and incomes, remember. They had their own taxes to
        collect, just
        > like everyone else.
        >

        All samurai had their own fiefs? Including garrison troops barracked
        in the city?

        What was the nature of the relation between a daimyo and the kokujin
        (ji-samurai) within the nominal borders of his shugyo? Were kokujin
        vassals? Did they perform military service for the daimyo outside of
        vassalage?

        Otagiri
      • Ii Saburou
        ... Daimyo kept fiefs, and samurai served the daimyo, getting paid from the taxes they levied. If you for some reason lost your position and became ronin
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 3, 2004
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          On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:

          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...> wrote:
          > > Otagiri Tatsuzou wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > > Who paid their stipends in the early sixteenth century when the
          > > > shogunate itself was broke?
          > >
          > > They had fiefs and incomes, remember. They had their own taxes to
          > collect, just
          > > like everyone else.
          > >
          >
          > All samurai had their own fiefs? Including garrison troops barracked
          > in the city?

          Daimyo kept fiefs, and samurai served the daimyo, getting paid from the
          taxes they levied. If you for some reason lost your position and became
          'ronin' (usually for being on the wrong end of a battle). Ronin had no
          income, and could either find another lord to take them in, or--as often
          seemed to happen--form a small band and raid the villages and farms for
          what they could.

          -Ii
        • Solveig
          Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... It was how they were paid. This sort of arrangement goes all the way back to land allocation to kuge under the
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 3, 2004
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            Noble Cousin!

            Greetings from Solveig!

            >All samurai had their own fiefs? Including garrison troops barracked
            >in the city?

            It was how they were paid. This sort of arrangement goes all the way
            back to land allocation to kuge under the ritsuryou system. The buke
            version was generally less direct as they often held tax collection
            or rent collection rights from which they derived a share while the
            kuge in theory held actual tax or rent rights.

            The daimyou are fundamentally a category of rights holder. If your
            fief was large enough then you were classified as a daimyou. If it
            was smaller, you were classified as a shomyou. There is more than a
            bit of confusion about all of this. The position of original significance
            was actually "shugo" which was a kind of provincial military governor
            or constable created during the Kamakura period. Shugo were awarded
            large
            fiefs and were also daimyou.
            --

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

            +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
            | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
            | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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          • Otagiri Tatsuzou
            ... significance ... I m aiming my inquiry at a smaller scale than daimyo. The following comes from my reading of Sansom and some documents in Lu: Some samurai
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 3, 2004
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
              > The daimyou are fundamentally a category of rights holder. If your
              > fief was large enough then you were classified as a daimyou. If it
              > was smaller, you were classified as a shomyou. There is more than a
              > bit of confusion about all of this. The position of original
              significance
              > was actually "shugo" which was a kind of provincial military governor
              > or constable created during the Kamakura period. Shugo were awarded
              > large
              > fiefs and were also daimyou.


              I'm aiming my inquiry at a smaller scale than daimyo. The following
              comes from my reading of Sansom and some documents in Lu:

              Some samurai were jito. The jito had the right to collect the taxes
              for the holder of the tax rights (shiki). In most cases the jito was
              not the cultivator of the land (sakunin).

              So how likely are the following statements (in the mid sixteenth century).

              1) Some samurai are jito
              2) All jiti are samurai..
              3) Some jito draw their stipend as a portion of the taxes collected.
              4) Some jito deliver all the taxes directly to their leige.
              5) Some samurai receive stipends directly from their leige in the form
              of goods.
              6) Some samurai receive stipends directly from their leige as cash


              And some more questions.
              Peasants were encouraged to develop new fields. Were these new fields
              incoporated into the existing shoen systems? Were new shoen estates
              "registered" somewhere someway? Did significant acreage exist outside
              the shoen estates?
            • Andrew Leitch
              Once again, its after midnight and I m writing my reply from work and I don t have my library or old rekishi notes at hand. So, fully expecting to be shot
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 4, 2004
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                Once again, its after midnight and I'm writing my reply from work and I
                don't have my library or old rekishi notes at hand. So, fully expecting to
                be shot down in flames by Effingham-dono, here�s my two yens worth anyway�
                :)

                *** On Jito and Shugo-

                Weren't the jito originally a pre-Ashikaga Imperial tax collector? They
                were supposed to collect the tax and send it back to the Imperial court
                noble who technically owned the fief.

                At some point this system broke down.

                As the samurai class came into its own, the jito (who'd already militarised
                to a certain extent to protect their cash) sent a portion of their money
                upstream to the shugo rather than to court in order to gain further
                protection. The shugo were military rather than bureaucratic governors at
                the time.

                So, the actual control of the land passed from court hands into the hands
                of the shugo � who were samurai. These guys bickered and fought amongst
                themselves to secure greater numbers of jito. If they acquired enough land
                they were called daimyo (doesn�t this just mean �big name�?).

                Hmmm� by the time the Warring States period ended, jito had ceased to be.
                Or at least, that�s my impression.

                There�s a number of terms of which I�m not sure though:

                Go-zamurai � samurai who are from farmer stock? Or maybe are traditionally
                associated with a given fief?

                Hatamoto � senior vassals of a daimyo who control distinct areas of land
                smaller than a Han?

                Karo � elderly advisers, retired generals, uncles etc.

                *** On Stipends-

                I don�t believe that all samurai had their own fiefs. Especially once
                Tokugawa got in control. A stipend was an income derived from tax gathered
                from the Lord�s lands but it was not directly tied to any particular patch
                of land.

                A retainer on a stipend did not own a village which he had to look after.
                He was in direct vassalage to his lord and served at his residence (mansion
                or castle). He got paid a stipend in the same way that we might collect a
                yearly salary. The retainers which had their own plot of land, which were
                infiefed, as it were, were go-zamurai or hatamoto perhaps? Hmmm� I lack
                enough of the right names to describe this situation properly�

                I do remember that Tokugawa Ieyasu had a deliberate policy of
                disenfranchising the samurai from their feudal land base. The payment of
                stipends or salaries was essential to this. It was just another method he
                had of ensuring that samurai did not rise up and rebel. The theory being
                that without significant ties to land and the peasant class, their sense of
                responsibility for them was diminished and they would also lack a feudal
                base of operations to return to and stage rebellions from.

                **** Otagiri Tatsuzou�s questions �


                1) Some samurai are jito
                2) All jito are samurai..

                - I don�t think the jito really existed by the mid-sixteenth century, IMHO.
                I'm sure someone will tell us though. :)

                3) Some jito draw their stipend as a portion of the taxes collected.
                - I think that they drew a percentage (of around 50%?) from the taxes
                collected.

                4) Some jito deliver all the taxes directly to their leige.
                - Nope, I don�t think so.

                5) Some samurai receive stipends directly from their leige in the form of
                goods.
                - Goods? Like rice? Almost certainly, eh. I can�t imagine a town or city
                based samurai being paid in rice though. More likely in cold, hard cash�
                gold bullion of some sort. Promisary notes?

                6) Some samurai receive stipends directly from their leige as cash
                - I reckon. :)

                And some more questions.
                Peasants were encouraged to develop new fields. Were these new fields
                incoporated into the existing shoen systems? Were new shoen estates
                "registered" somewhere someway? Did significant acreage exist outside
                the shoen estates?

                - New fields were developed by nanushi, I think (that name doesn't sound
                right...). Anyway, the �grass parters�, who reclaimed swamps or cut down
                forests. These new lands were often not straight away incorporated into the
                shoen system. The jito might still collect tax from it, but they might
                keep the rice all to themselves (with very little maneuvering on their
                part).

                The amount of tax collected depended on how recently the last land survey
                was done. A jito might have 5000 tan of land to collect tax from in
                theory. But given a bit of growth, he might actually administer 6,500 tan
                of land because the taxes were set at the last land survey, say 80 years
                ago.

                Of course, land surveyors could always be bribed to underestimate land size
                and production value as well.

                I hope this makes sense.

                IIRC, Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu were into land surveys in a big way
                as it increased their income significantly.

                Segayama no Andre
                (Andre de Montsegur)
              • Ii Saburou
                Regarding taxes, one history professor I had pointed out several intersting things that would happene in both China and Japan. It was usual for peasants to
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 4, 2004
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                  Regarding taxes, one history professor I had pointed out several
                  intersting things that would happene in both China and Japan. It was
                  usual for peasants to hide a certain amount of the proceeds from the tax
                  collectors. Rulers would then raise taxes to an artificial number (say,
                  80%) which is what they would take from the rice reported.

                  Thus, whenever someone wanted more, they could actually lower taxes but
                  increase enforcement and actually gather in more income. Of course,
                  rulers have to always be wary that they aren't starving their workers...
                  too much.

                  -Ii

                  On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Andrew Leitch wrote:

                  > The amount of tax collected depended on how recently the last land survey
                  > was done. A jito might have 5000 tan of land to collect tax from in
                  > theory. But given a bit of growth, he might actually administer 6,500 tan
                  > of land because the taxes were set at the last land survey, say 80 years
                  > ago.
                  >
                  > Of course, land surveyors could always be bribed to underestimate land size
                  > and production value as well.
                  >
                  > I hope this makes sense.
                  >
                  > IIRC, Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu were into land surveys in a big way
                  > as it increased their income significantly.
                  >
                  > Segayama no Andre
                  > (Andre de Montsegur)
                  >
                  >
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                • Solveig
                  Noble Cousin! You should really read some of the books written by Mass. You will find pretty good answers to your questions. ... Yes. ... Probably. However
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 4, 2004
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                    Noble Cousin!

                    You should really read some of the books written by Mass. You will find
                    pretty good answers to your questions.

                    >1) Some samurai are jito

                    Yes.

                    >2) All jiti are samurai..

                    Probably. However there are no plurals in Japanese and Japanese is
                    definitely not Latin or Greek so it should simply be jito not jiti.
                    The Jito were created at about the time of the Genjpei War. They
                    are a major feature in the Kamakura Bakufu.

                    >3) Some jito draw their stipend as a portion of the taxes collected.

                    Very technically, the shoen managers are not collecting taxes they are
                    collecting rents and shares of crops. The shoen were generally tax exempt.

                    >4) Some jito deliver all the taxes directly to their leige.

                    No. The estate owners and the feudal liege are often completely different and
                    possibly unrelatged people.

                    >5) Some samurai receive stipends directly from their leige in the form
                    >of goods.

                    This can become complicated. However, the answer is pretty much yes.
                    Vassals typically received an annual gift of cloth for their uniforms.
                    You can get a glimps of this in as I recall the end of the first movie
                    in Inagaki's Samurai Trilogy.

                    >6) Some samurai receive stipends directly from their leige as cash

                    This may happen, but it sounds pretty unusual. The vassals generally
                    received agricultural rights. Even today, Japanese avoid obvious
                    exchanges of cash. Even if cash is being given, it is frequently
                    placed in an envelope and conveyed on a tray or some other device.

                    >Peasants were encouraged to develop new fields. Were these new fields
                    >incoporated into the existing shoen systems? Were new shoen estates
                    >"registered" somewhere someway? Did significant acreage exist outside
                    >the shoen estates?

                    Yes, pretty much to all of those questions. However, you really
                    should read Mass. Incidentally, land was either part of the shoen
                    system or it was part
                    of the old ritsuryou system. One is land taxable by the imperial government
                    and the other is land exempt from imperial taxation.

                    Again about "daimyou",. While it is literally <big><name> it really refers
                    to the size of land holdings. You should recall that private fields can be
                    called "myouden". During the Kamakura Period, the jitou were independent
                    of the shugou and came under the shugou during the Muromachi Period. The
                    old posts of jitou and shugou are pretty much replaced by the Tokugawa.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                    | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                    | the trash by my email filters. |
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                  • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                    ... and I ... expecting to ... worth anyway… ... From what I ve been reading, your 2 yen (mon ?) is worth a little more. I d thought I add a little more on
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 18, 2004
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                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Leitch" <kinder@w...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Once again, its after midnight and I'm writing my reply from work
                      and I
                      > don't have my library or old rekishi notes at hand. So, fully
                      expecting to
                      > be shot down in flames by Effingham-dono, here's my two yens
                      worth
                      anyway…
                      > :)


                      From what I've been reading, your 2 yen (mon ?) is worth a little
                      more. I'd thought I add a little more on the nature of samurai from
                      Carl Streenstrup's _Hojo Shigetoki (1198-1261) and his Role in the
                      History of Political and Ethical Ideas in Japan_.

                      "A gokenin or shogunate houseman was a warrior who owned a piece of
                      inherited land to which his right was confirmed by the bakufu. Most
                      but not all gokenin held jitou-shiki or stewardships. These gave them
                      not only income but also the right to police the area (kendan) and a
                      series of other public competences, in return for service duties to
                      the bakufu. Not all shugo were gokenin but, as far as we know, all
                      jito were.

                      A warrior who had no such confirmation and accordingly did not perform
                      services for the bakufu was a hi-gokenin, He might serve the emperor,
                      a prince, a kuge family, a shrine or a temple, or be an independent
                      landowner or myoushu. Souhei or monk soldiers wer not considered
                      hi-gokenin but ranked with the routou mentioned below.

                      Gokenin and hi-gokenin together constituted the warriors or samurai.
                      The minimum requirements for being a samurai were to own bow and
                      arrows and a horse trained for combat, to have received martial
                      training, to have enough landed income to acquire and keep these
                      accoutrements, and to fight on horseback, which according to the mode
                      of warfare of the age required some kachi or footmen to protect the
                      horse against other samurais' foot soldiers. One kachi was the
                      absolute minimal requirement. Finally, a samurai was required to have
                      his landed income from inherited land and to derive it through shiki
                      higher up in the social scale than mere cultivators' shiki. This did
                      not preclude his holding cultivators' shiki besides and doing actual
                      farmwork himself. There were no doubt many blurred cases. But the
                      foundation for the gradually developing seperation of warriors and
                      non-warriors was already being laid in the Kamakura times: the samurai
                      being a gentleman of independent means (as in England until lately, it
                      took two generations to make him) who fought on horseback, and the
                      rest of the people commoners who tilled the soiled, produced goods, or
                      traded. In between were the warriors' retinue men, or juusha."

                      Highest in rank among the juushu were the wakatou, who were samurai in
                      the process of training. These might be adopted into the household.
                      Those lacking in hereditary and finacial means were called routou. The
                      y fought on foot, carried swords, and sometimes held office. Below
                      them were chugen who did not carry swords and fought with spear.

                      As to goods -v- money, in the Kamakura money was beginning to be used
                      in normal commerce. The bakufu tried to stifle this as a way of
                      checking inflation and the wealthy Western provinces. Mutsu was
                      required to use barter/goods in its finacial transactions/taxes until
                      the Nambu and Dewa controlled the region during the Sengoku.
                    • Solveig
                      Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Some of the articles being quoted sound a bit confused. Here is an article by Frederic translated by Roth and published
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 18, 2004
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                        Noble Cousin!

                        Greetings from Solveig! Some of the articles being quoted sound a bit confused.
                        Here is an article by Frederic translated by Roth and published by Harvard.

                        Bushi. "Man of arms." Since 721, this term was used for professional
                        warriors, coming into general use in the late eleventh century and
                        replacing the terms mono-no-fu, tsuwamono, musha, and saburai, which
                        later became the word samurai. Starting in the Kamakura period, the
                        bushi were part of the "warriors' house," or buke, an early
                        designation of the shogun's entourage. Later, the term buke became
                        synonymous with 'bushi class" [this is how I use the term] and
                        encompassed all warriors. Leagues of warriors, or bushidan,
                        especially in the provinces, gave rise to the great warrior clans,
                        and therafter the only true bushi were those in the bushidan, while
                        others were called tsuwamono. During the Edo period, the bushi were
                        classified according to a strict hierarchy, dominated by the shogun,
                        within which each bushi occupied a place determined by his status
                        (daimyou, hatamoto, gokenin, hanhi, etc.) and that of the lord he
                        served. This hierarchy was abolished in 1869, and the former bushi
                        became part of the new shizoku class. Finally, in 1947, all social
                        distinctions were abolished and members of the shizoku class became
                        simple citizens. (2002 p. 94)

                        Jitou. In the late Heian period, land used to remunerate certain
                        provincial bureaucrats or representatives of the shouen Intendants).
                        Startin in the Kamakura period (or perhaps even a little before, in
                        the mid-twelfth century),
                        however, this term no longer referred to land but to estate
                        intendants and tax collectors for the owners. [Farris in Heavenly
                        Warriors stresses the continuity of this class from developments in
                        the Heian period] The position of jitou became more or less
                        hereditary starting in 1221. In the Muromachi period, "jitou"
                        designated mainly a low-ranking local lord (koku-jin); in the Edo
                        period, it was simply the title of a person with a certain share
                        (chigryou) in a daimyou's fief. [This is why the jitou do not appear
                        on the organizational chart for the Edo Bakufu at the back of
                        Kodansha Kogojiten.] (2002 p. 425)

                        Gokenin. Direct vassals of a shogun. In the Kamakura period, term for
                        some 2,000 samura families who became hereditary vassals of Minamoto
                        no Yoritomo and received land (ando) or became jitou or shuugo. The
                        gokenin served as the shogun's personal guard and constituted the
                        basis of his army. In the Muromachi period, the gokenin were divided
                        into two classes, those under direct control of the shogun, the
                        houkoushuu, and those under a shugo, the jitou-gokenin. During the
                        Edo period, the gokenin were the shogun's lowest-ranked direct
                        vassals, below the hatamoto, and did not have the privilege of being
                        received by the shogun. Their income varied widely but rarely
                        exceeded 200 koku, which meant that many of them were impoverished
                        and became merchants or artisans. (200 p. 255)

                        Bottom line. There were a lot more jitou out there than there were
                        gokenin during the Kamakura period. The gokenin of the Kamakura
                        period held a variety
                        of appointments and only some of them were jitou. The shugo (constables) were
                        the real provincial innovation of the Kamakura Bakufu. Later the
                        gokenin become much more numerous. Finally, jitou were fairly common
                        as late as 1600. We see them functioning as estate stewards and local
                        government authorities in early kyougen plays such as Ukosako. There
                        is no identity between gokenin, bushi, or jitou.
                        --

                        Your Humble Servant
                        Solveig Throndardottir
                        Amateur Scholar

                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                        | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                        | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                        | the trash by my email filters. |
                        +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                      • Andrew Leitch
                        Thank you Solveig! - Andre Snip * Solveig writes: Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! Some of the articles being quoted sound a bit confused. Here is an
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 18, 2004
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                          Thank you Solveig!

                          - Andre

                          Snip * Solveig writes:

                          Noble Cousin!

                          Greetings from Solveig! Some of the articles being quoted sound a bit
                          confused.
                          Here is an article by Frederic translated by Roth and published by Harvard.

                          Bushi. "Man of arms." Since 721, * Snip
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