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Re: Pazzi

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  • makiwara_no_yetsuko
    ... nefarious ... hanging ... I KNEW I d heard it somewhere..... Makiwara
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 1 12:51 PM
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      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Leitch" <kinder@w...> wrote:
      >
      > There's a whole scene in that terrible movie, Hannibal, where the
      nefarious
      > Doctor relates the origins of the word "patsy".... just before
      hanging
      > Detective Pazzi from the balcony sans innards...

      I KNEW I'd heard it somewhere.....

      Makiwara
    • Liu O Lan
      Pazzi is a very famous name in Florence, Italy. The Pazzi s were the family who tried to kill Lorenzo di Medici, and did kill his brother. Liu O Lan ... From:
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 1 4:57 PM
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        Pazzi is a very famous name in Florence, Italy. The Pazzi's were the family
        who tried to kill Lorenzo di Medici, and did kill his brother.

        Liu O Lan
        -----Original Message-----
        From: makiwara_no_yetsuko [mailto:makiwara_no_yetsuko@...]
        Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 3:52 PM
        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Pazzi


        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Leitch" <kinder@w...> wrote:
        >
        > There's a whole scene in that terrible movie, Hannibal, where the
        nefarious
        > Doctor relates the origins of the word "patsy".... just before
        hanging
        > Detective Pazzi from the balcony sans innards...

        I KNEW I'd heard it somewhere.....

        Makiwara





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      • Solveig
        Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... What the Japanese really did in this sort of situation was claim to be a Minamoto, a Taira, or a Fujiwara. Since the
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 1 8:35 PM
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          Noble Cousin!

          Greetings from Solveig!

          >My original idea for Kondei as a family name was having some folks,
          >later in period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the
          >'founders' of the "Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the
          >Emperor, of course), or some of the trainers in it. Claiming a
          >possible name that would give them a more ancient lineage than
          >perhaps they were entitled to.

          What the Japanese really did in this sort of situation was claim to be a
          Minamoto, a Taira, or a Fujiwara. Since the Minamoto pretty much let in
          all comers during the Genpei War, it is particularly easy to claim to be
          a Minamoto.
          --

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar

          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
          | the trash by my email filters. |
          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... Just checked my American Heritage bugkiller. It says probably derived from Italian pazzo, fool, idiot or something to that effect. ... Look again at
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 2 1:56 AM
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            Park McKellop wrote:

            > BTW, isn't that the origin of the English "patsy"?
            >
            > Effingham
            >
            > Probably not, from OED: [Origin unknown.]
            >
            > earliest entry is 1903, it originated in the US A person who is ridiculed,
            > deceived, blamed, or victimized. 1903 践. MCHUGH・Back to Woods 68 I'm the
            > Patsy, oh, maybe!

            Just checked my American Heritage bugkiller. It says "probably derived from
            Italian "pazzo," fool, idiot" or something to that effect.

            > A little more seriously on the name front, ;-)...
            >
            > My original idea for Kondei as a family name was having some folks, later in
            > period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the 'founders' of the
            > "Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the Emperor, of course), or some of
            > the trainers in it. Claiming a possible name that would give them a more
            > ancient lineage than perhaps they were entitled to. Since I finally, under
            > some suggestion, read the article on a particular name site... Are there
            > example of surnames being "taken names"?

            Look again at the section on "adana" -- taken names. The one case that comes to
            mind is that of the Amago.

            > I know there are a number of
            > examples in Europe. Stalin as you mentioned (Man of Steel), Sforza (Force)
            > in Italy, William Marshal's real surname was something else, I believe.

            He wasn't "William Marshall" in the name books -- he was technically William
            *the* Marshall, or William, Earl of Pembroke; Marshall may have been an epithet,
            but it wasn't nor did it become his surname. Sorry. <G>

            In any event, that's England, Russia, and Italy. Not Japan. The rules are
            different, I'm afraid.

            > Since the main charge for the Barony of Vatavia's (Wichita KS) arms is a male
            > dragonfly, I suppose I could use Tonba-kawa/shima/no
            > (Dragonfly-river/island/plain) or something similar? "Victory Bugs", for
            > some reason, are kinda popular around here. :-)

            I'd have to do a little research on that. I'd need to see if I can find any
            evidence of places being named after tonbo.


            Effingham
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... Yeah, those Minamoto would take anyone. Of course, they also had a hell of a retirement policy, as Yoshinaka found out... Effingham
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 2 2:28 AM
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              Solveig wrote:


              > What the Japanese really did in this sort of situation was claim to be a
              > Minamoto, a Taira, or a Fujiwara. Since the Minamoto pretty much let in
              > all comers during the Genpei War, it is particularly easy to claim to be
              > a Minamoto.

              Yeah, those Minamoto would take anyone. Of course, they also had a hell of a
              retirement policy, as Yoshinaka found out...


              Effingham
            • Ii Saburou
              ... Tokugawa and Toyotomi? Granted, they were both fairly important when they took new surnames, but still. Then there are cases where family clan members took
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 2 4:37 AM
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                On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                > > period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the 'founders' of the
                > > "Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the Emperor, of course), or some of
                > > the trainers in it. Claiming a possible name that would give them a more
                > > ancient lineage than perhaps they were entitled to. Since I finally, under
                > > some suggestion, read the article on a particular name site... Are there
                > > example of surnames being "taken names"?
                >
                > Look again at the section on "adana" -- taken names. The one case that comes to
                > mind is that of the Amago.

                Tokugawa and Toyotomi?

                Granted, they were both fairly important when they took new surnames, but
                still.

                Then there are cases where family clan members took different names--I'm
                recalling some fighting that happened out in the west that looks like it
                is all between the same families, but they have grown distant enough to
                form new ones, with different names based on their locations.

                Also I believe that the first 'Ii' was given his surname as part of a
                promotional package, as it were--just some no-family foot soldier that
                became a warrior important enough to have a last name.

                I'd be more inclined to think these types of names would be locatives,
                though.

                -Ii
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... Different concepts. Most samurai surnames were actually adopted -- most being the places that the families were sited -- but adana are specifically byname
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 2 5:08 AM
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                  Ii Saburou wrote:

                  > On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >>>period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the 'founders' of the
                  >>>"Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the Emperor, of course), or some of
                  >>>the trainers in it. Claiming a possible name that would give them a more
                  >>>ancient lineage than perhaps they were entitled to. Since I finally, under
                  >>>some suggestion, read the article on a particular name site... Are there
                  >>>example of surnames being "taken names"?
                  >>
                  >>Look again at the section on "adana" -- taken names. The one case that comes to
                  >>mind is that of the Amago.
                  >
                  >
                  > Tokugawa and Toyotomi?

                  Different concepts. Most samurai surnames were actually adopted -- most being
                  the places that the families were sited -- but adana are specifically byname
                  type things (Amago being the only one I can recall to have actually become a
                  surname).

                  Toyotomi was granted by the Emperor, BTW -- it was an "awarded" name (for want
                  of a better term).

                  > Then there are cases where family clan members took different names--I'm
                  > recalling some fighting that happened out in the west that looks like it
                  > is all between the same families, but they have grown distant enough to
                  > form new ones, with different names based on their locations.
                  >
                  > Also I believe that the first 'Ii' was given his surname as part of a
                  > promotional package, as it were--just some no-family foot soldier that
                  > became a warrior important enough to have a last name.

                  Possible, but I don't know; I've never really studied the Ii -- but I love their
                  castle. <G>

                  > I'd be more inclined to think these types of names would be locatives,
                  > though.

                  Well, Ii is definitely locative in form...

                  Effingham
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