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Re: Pazzi

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  • makiwara_no_yetsuko
    ... Er, there were Italians in the US in 1903. That s just the first *written* instance that the OED has documented...... Still speculating, Makiwara
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Park McKellop <squire009@b...> wrote:
      > BTW, isn't that the origin of the English "patsy"?
      >
      > Effingham
      >
      > Probably not, from OED:
      > [Origin unknown.]
      >
      > earliest entry is 1903, it originated in the US
      > A person who is ridiculed, deceived, blamed, or victimized.
      > 1903 `H. MCHUGH' Back to Woods 68 I'm the Patsy, oh, maybe!

      Er, there were Italians in the US in 1903. That's just the first
      *written* instance that the OED has documented......

      Still speculating,
      Makiwara
    • Andrew Leitch
      There s a whole scene in that terrible movie, Hannibal, where the nefarious Doctor relates the origins of the word patsy .... just before hanging Detective
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
        There's a whole scene in that terrible movie, Hannibal, where the nefarious
        Doctor relates the origins of the word "patsy".... just before hanging
        Detective Pazzi from the balcony sans innards...

        - Andre


        makiwara_no_yetsuko writes:

        > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Park McKellop <squire009@b...> wrote:
        > > BTW, isn't that the origin of the English "patsy"?
        > >
        > > Effingham
        > >
        > > Probably not, from OED:
        > > [Origin unknown.]
        > >
        > > earliest entry is 1903, it originated in the US
        > > A person who is ridiculed, deceived, blamed, or victimized.
        > > 1903 `H. MCHUGH' Back to Woods 68 I'm the Patsy, oh, maybe!
        >
        > Er, there were Italians in the US in 1903. That's just the first
        > *written* instance that the OED has documented......
        >
        > Still speculating,
        > Makiwara
        >
        >
        >
        > UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • makiwara_no_yetsuko
        ... nefarious ... hanging ... I KNEW I d heard it somewhere..... Makiwara
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Leitch" <kinder@w...> wrote:
          >
          > There's a whole scene in that terrible movie, Hannibal, where the
          nefarious
          > Doctor relates the origins of the word "patsy".... just before
          hanging
          > Detective Pazzi from the balcony sans innards...

          I KNEW I'd heard it somewhere.....

          Makiwara
        • Liu O Lan
          Pazzi is a very famous name in Florence, Italy. The Pazzi s were the family who tried to kill Lorenzo di Medici, and did kill his brother. Liu O Lan ... From:
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
            Pazzi is a very famous name in Florence, Italy. The Pazzi's were the family
            who tried to kill Lorenzo di Medici, and did kill his brother.

            Liu O Lan
            -----Original Message-----
            From: makiwara_no_yetsuko [mailto:makiwara_no_yetsuko@...]
            Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 3:52 PM
            To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Pazzi


            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Leitch" <kinder@w...> wrote:
            >
            > There's a whole scene in that terrible movie, Hannibal, where the
            nefarious
            > Doctor relates the origins of the word "patsy".... just before
            hanging
            > Detective Pazzi from the balcony sans innards...

            I KNEW I'd heard it somewhere.....

            Makiwara





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          • Solveig
            Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... What the Japanese really did in this sort of situation was claim to be a Minamoto, a Taira, or a Fujiwara. Since the
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
              Noble Cousin!

              Greetings from Solveig!

              >My original idea for Kondei as a family name was having some folks,
              >later in period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the
              >'founders' of the "Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the
              >Emperor, of course), or some of the trainers in it. Claiming a
              >possible name that would give them a more ancient lineage than
              >perhaps they were entitled to.

              What the Japanese really did in this sort of situation was claim to be a
              Minamoto, a Taira, or a Fujiwara. Since the Minamoto pretty much let in
              all comers during the Genpei War, it is particularly easy to claim to be
              a Minamoto.
              --

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
              | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
              | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
              | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
              | the trash by my email filters. |
              +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... Just checked my American Heritage bugkiller. It says probably derived from Italian pazzo, fool, idiot or something to that effect. ... Look again at
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 2, 2004
                Park McKellop wrote:

                > BTW, isn't that the origin of the English "patsy"?
                >
                > Effingham
                >
                > Probably not, from OED: [Origin unknown.]
                >
                > earliest entry is 1903, it originated in the US A person who is ridiculed,
                > deceived, blamed, or victimized. 1903 践. MCHUGH・Back to Woods 68 I'm the
                > Patsy, oh, maybe!

                Just checked my American Heritage bugkiller. It says "probably derived from
                Italian "pazzo," fool, idiot" or something to that effect.

                > A little more seriously on the name front, ;-)...
                >
                > My original idea for Kondei as a family name was having some folks, later in
                > period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the 'founders' of the
                > "Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the Emperor, of course), or some of
                > the trainers in it. Claiming a possible name that would give them a more
                > ancient lineage than perhaps they were entitled to. Since I finally, under
                > some suggestion, read the article on a particular name site... Are there
                > example of surnames being "taken names"?

                Look again at the section on "adana" -- taken names. The one case that comes to
                mind is that of the Amago.

                > I know there are a number of
                > examples in Europe. Stalin as you mentioned (Man of Steel), Sforza (Force)
                > in Italy, William Marshal's real surname was something else, I believe.

                He wasn't "William Marshall" in the name books -- he was technically William
                *the* Marshall, or William, Earl of Pembroke; Marshall may have been an epithet,
                but it wasn't nor did it become his surname. Sorry. <G>

                In any event, that's England, Russia, and Italy. Not Japan. The rules are
                different, I'm afraid.

                > Since the main charge for the Barony of Vatavia's (Wichita KS) arms is a male
                > dragonfly, I suppose I could use Tonba-kawa/shima/no
                > (Dragonfly-river/island/plain) or something similar? "Victory Bugs", for
                > some reason, are kinda popular around here. :-)

                I'd have to do a little research on that. I'd need to see if I can find any
                evidence of places being named after tonbo.


                Effingham
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... Yeah, those Minamoto would take anyone. Of course, they also had a hell of a retirement policy, as Yoshinaka found out... Effingham
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 2, 2004
                  Solveig wrote:


                  > What the Japanese really did in this sort of situation was claim to be a
                  > Minamoto, a Taira, or a Fujiwara. Since the Minamoto pretty much let in
                  > all comers during the Genpei War, it is particularly easy to claim to be
                  > a Minamoto.

                  Yeah, those Minamoto would take anyone. Of course, they also had a hell of a
                  retirement policy, as Yoshinaka found out...


                  Effingham
                • Ii Saburou
                  ... Tokugawa and Toyotomi? Granted, they were both fairly important when they took new surnames, but still. Then there are cases where family clan members took
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 2, 2004
                    On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                    > > period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the 'founders' of the
                    > > "Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the Emperor, of course), or some of
                    > > the trainers in it. Claiming a possible name that would give them a more
                    > > ancient lineage than perhaps they were entitled to. Since I finally, under
                    > > some suggestion, read the article on a particular name site... Are there
                    > > example of surnames being "taken names"?
                    >
                    > Look again at the section on "adana" -- taken names. The one case that comes to
                    > mind is that of the Amago.

                    Tokugawa and Toyotomi?

                    Granted, they were both fairly important when they took new surnames, but
                    still.

                    Then there are cases where family clan members took different names--I'm
                    recalling some fighting that happened out in the west that looks like it
                    is all between the same families, but they have grown distant enough to
                    form new ones, with different names based on their locations.

                    Also I believe that the first 'Ii' was given his surname as part of a
                    promotional package, as it were--just some no-family foot soldier that
                    became a warrior important enough to have a last name.

                    I'd be more inclined to think these types of names would be locatives,
                    though.

                    -Ii
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... Different concepts. Most samurai surnames were actually adopted -- most being the places that the families were sited -- but adana are specifically byname
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 2, 2004
                      Ii Saburou wrote:

                      > On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >>>period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the 'founders' of the
                      >>>"Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the Emperor, of course), or some of
                      >>>the trainers in it. Claiming a possible name that would give them a more
                      >>>ancient lineage than perhaps they were entitled to. Since I finally, under
                      >>>some suggestion, read the article on a particular name site... Are there
                      >>>example of surnames being "taken names"?
                      >>
                      >>Look again at the section on "adana" -- taken names. The one case that comes to
                      >>mind is that of the Amago.
                      >
                      >
                      > Tokugawa and Toyotomi?

                      Different concepts. Most samurai surnames were actually adopted -- most being
                      the places that the families were sited -- but adana are specifically byname
                      type things (Amago being the only one I can recall to have actually become a
                      surname).

                      Toyotomi was granted by the Emperor, BTW -- it was an "awarded" name (for want
                      of a better term).

                      > Then there are cases where family clan members took different names--I'm
                      > recalling some fighting that happened out in the west that looks like it
                      > is all between the same families, but they have grown distant enough to
                      > form new ones, with different names based on their locations.
                      >
                      > Also I believe that the first 'Ii' was given his surname as part of a
                      > promotional package, as it were--just some no-family foot soldier that
                      > became a warrior important enough to have a last name.

                      Possible, but I don't know; I've never really studied the Ii -- but I love their
                      castle. <G>

                      > I'd be more inclined to think these types of names would be locatives,
                      > though.

                      Well, Ii is definitely locative in form...

                      Effingham
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