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Pazzi

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  • Park McKellop
    BTW, isn t that the origin of the English patsy ? Effingham Probably not, from OED: [Origin unknown.] earliest entry is 1903, it originated in the US A
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
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      BTW, isn't that the origin of the English "patsy"?

      Effingham

      Probably not, from OED:
      [Origin unknown.]

      earliest entry is 1903, it originated in the US
      A person who is ridiculed, deceived, blamed, or victimized.
      1903 �H. MCHUGH� Back to Woods 68 I'm the Patsy, oh, maybe!

      I like your 'folk-etymology' better, though. Now can I be K-I-N? ;-)

      A little more seriously on the name front, ;-)...

      My original idea for Kondei as a family name was having some folks, later in period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the 'founders' of the "Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the Emperor, of course), or some of the trainers in it. Claiming a possible name that would give them a more ancient lineage than perhaps they were entitled to. Since I finally, under some suggestion, read the article on a particular name site... Are there example of surnames being "taken names"? I know there are a number of examples in Europe. Stalin as you mentioned (Man of Steel), Sforza (Force) in Italy, William Marshal's real surname was something else, I believe.

      Since the main charge for the Barony of Vatavia's (Wichita KS) arms is a male dragonfly, I suppose I could use Tonba-kawa/shima/no (Dragonfly-river/island/plain) or something similar? "Victory Bugs", for some reason, are kinda popular around here. :-)

      Alcyoneus


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    • makiwara_no_yetsuko
      ... Er, there were Italians in the US in 1903. That s just the first *written* instance that the OED has documented...... Still speculating, Makiwara
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
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        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Park McKellop <squire009@b...> wrote:
        > BTW, isn't that the origin of the English "patsy"?
        >
        > Effingham
        >
        > Probably not, from OED:
        > [Origin unknown.]
        >
        > earliest entry is 1903, it originated in the US
        > A person who is ridiculed, deceived, blamed, or victimized.
        > 1903 `H. MCHUGH' Back to Woods 68 I'm the Patsy, oh, maybe!

        Er, there were Italians in the US in 1903. That's just the first
        *written* instance that the OED has documented......

        Still speculating,
        Makiwara
      • Andrew Leitch
        There s a whole scene in that terrible movie, Hannibal, where the nefarious Doctor relates the origins of the word patsy .... just before hanging Detective
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
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          There's a whole scene in that terrible movie, Hannibal, where the nefarious
          Doctor relates the origins of the word "patsy".... just before hanging
          Detective Pazzi from the balcony sans innards...

          - Andre


          makiwara_no_yetsuko writes:

          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Park McKellop <squire009@b...> wrote:
          > > BTW, isn't that the origin of the English "patsy"?
          > >
          > > Effingham
          > >
          > > Probably not, from OED:
          > > [Origin unknown.]
          > >
          > > earliest entry is 1903, it originated in the US
          > > A person who is ridiculed, deceived, blamed, or victimized.
          > > 1903 `H. MCHUGH' Back to Woods 68 I'm the Patsy, oh, maybe!
          >
          > Er, there were Italians in the US in 1903. That's just the first
          > *written* instance that the OED has documented......
          >
          > Still speculating,
          > Makiwara
          >
          >
          >
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        • makiwara_no_yetsuko
          ... nefarious ... hanging ... I KNEW I d heard it somewhere..... Makiwara
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Leitch" <kinder@w...> wrote:
            >
            > There's a whole scene in that terrible movie, Hannibal, where the
            nefarious
            > Doctor relates the origins of the word "patsy".... just before
            hanging
            > Detective Pazzi from the balcony sans innards...

            I KNEW I'd heard it somewhere.....

            Makiwara
          • Liu O Lan
            Pazzi is a very famous name in Florence, Italy. The Pazzi s were the family who tried to kill Lorenzo di Medici, and did kill his brother. Liu O Lan ... From:
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
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              Pazzi is a very famous name in Florence, Italy. The Pazzi's were the family
              who tried to kill Lorenzo di Medici, and did kill his brother.

              Liu O Lan
              -----Original Message-----
              From: makiwara_no_yetsuko [mailto:makiwara_no_yetsuko@...]
              Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 3:52 PM
              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [SCA-JML] Re: Pazzi


              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Leitch" <kinder@w...> wrote:
              >
              > There's a whole scene in that terrible movie, Hannibal, where the
              nefarious
              > Doctor relates the origins of the word "patsy".... just before
              hanging
              > Detective Pazzi from the balcony sans innards...

              I KNEW I'd heard it somewhere.....

              Makiwara





              UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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            • Solveig
              Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! ... What the Japanese really did in this sort of situation was claim to be a Minamoto, a Taira, or a Fujiwara. Since the
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 1, 2004
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                Noble Cousin!

                Greetings from Solveig!

                >My original idea for Kondei as a family name was having some folks,
                >later in period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the
                >'founders' of the "Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the
                >Emperor, of course), or some of the trainers in it. Claiming a
                >possible name that would give them a more ancient lineage than
                >perhaps they were entitled to.

                What the Japanese really did in this sort of situation was claim to be a
                Minamoto, a Taira, or a Fujiwara. Since the Minamoto pretty much let in
                all comers during the Genpei War, it is particularly easy to claim to be
                a Minamoto.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... Just checked my American Heritage bugkiller. It says probably derived from Italian pazzo, fool, idiot or something to that effect. ... Look again at
                Message 7 of 10 , Apr 2, 2004
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                  Park McKellop wrote:

                  > BTW, isn't that the origin of the English "patsy"?
                  >
                  > Effingham
                  >
                  > Probably not, from OED: [Origin unknown.]
                  >
                  > earliest entry is 1903, it originated in the US A person who is ridiculed,
                  > deceived, blamed, or victimized. 1903 践. MCHUGH・Back to Woods 68 I'm the
                  > Patsy, oh, maybe!

                  Just checked my American Heritage bugkiller. It says "probably derived from
                  Italian "pazzo," fool, idiot" or something to that effect.

                  > A little more seriously on the name front, ;-)...
                  >
                  > My original idea for Kondei as a family name was having some folks, later in
                  > period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the 'founders' of the
                  > "Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the Emperor, of course), or some of
                  > the trainers in it. Claiming a possible name that would give them a more
                  > ancient lineage than perhaps they were entitled to. Since I finally, under
                  > some suggestion, read the article on a particular name site... Are there
                  > example of surnames being "taken names"?

                  Look again at the section on "adana" -- taken names. The one case that comes to
                  mind is that of the Amago.

                  > I know there are a number of
                  > examples in Europe. Stalin as you mentioned (Man of Steel), Sforza (Force)
                  > in Italy, William Marshal's real surname was something else, I believe.

                  He wasn't "William Marshall" in the name books -- he was technically William
                  *the* Marshall, or William, Earl of Pembroke; Marshall may have been an epithet,
                  but it wasn't nor did it become his surname. Sorry. <G>

                  In any event, that's England, Russia, and Italy. Not Japan. The rules are
                  different, I'm afraid.

                  > Since the main charge for the Barony of Vatavia's (Wichita KS) arms is a male
                  > dragonfly, I suppose I could use Tonba-kawa/shima/no
                  > (Dragonfly-river/island/plain) or something similar? "Victory Bugs", for
                  > some reason, are kinda popular around here. :-)

                  I'd have to do a little research on that. I'd need to see if I can find any
                  evidence of places being named after tonbo.


                  Effingham
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Yeah, those Minamoto would take anyone. Of course, they also had a hell of a retirement policy, as Yoshinaka found out... Effingham
                  Message 8 of 10 , Apr 2, 2004
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                    Solveig wrote:


                    > What the Japanese really did in this sort of situation was claim to be a
                    > Minamoto, a Taira, or a Fujiwara. Since the Minamoto pretty much let in
                    > all comers during the Genpei War, it is particularly easy to claim to be
                    > a Minamoto.

                    Yeah, those Minamoto would take anyone. Of course, they also had a hell of a
                    retirement policy, as Yoshinaka found out...


                    Effingham
                  • Ii Saburou
                    ... Tokugawa and Toyotomi? Granted, they were both fairly important when they took new surnames, but still. Then there are cases where family clan members took
                    Message 9 of 10 , Apr 2, 2004
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                      On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                      > > period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the 'founders' of the
                      > > "Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the Emperor, of course), or some of
                      > > the trainers in it. Claiming a possible name that would give them a more
                      > > ancient lineage than perhaps they were entitled to. Since I finally, under
                      > > some suggestion, read the article on a particular name site... Are there
                      > > example of surnames being "taken names"?
                      >
                      > Look again at the section on "adana" -- taken names. The one case that comes to
                      > mind is that of the Amago.

                      Tokugawa and Toyotomi?

                      Granted, they were both fairly important when they took new surnames, but
                      still.

                      Then there are cases where family clan members took different names--I'm
                      recalling some fighting that happened out in the west that looks like it
                      is all between the same families, but they have grown distant enough to
                      form new ones, with different names based on their locations.

                      Also I believe that the first 'Ii' was given his surname as part of a
                      promotional package, as it were--just some no-family foot soldier that
                      became a warrior important enough to have a last name.

                      I'd be more inclined to think these types of names would be locatives,
                      though.

                      -Ii
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... Different concepts. Most samurai surnames were actually adopted -- most being the places that the families were sited -- but adana are specifically byname
                      Message 10 of 10 , Apr 2, 2004
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                        Ii Saburou wrote:

                        > On Fri, 2 Apr 2004, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >>>period, justifiable or not, claim to have been the 'founders' of the
                        >>>"Stalwart Youth" camps (under orders from the Emperor, of course), or some of
                        >>>the trainers in it. Claiming a possible name that would give them a more
                        >>>ancient lineage than perhaps they were entitled to. Since I finally, under
                        >>>some suggestion, read the article on a particular name site... Are there
                        >>>example of surnames being "taken names"?
                        >>
                        >>Look again at the section on "adana" -- taken names. The one case that comes to
                        >>mind is that of the Amago.
                        >
                        >
                        > Tokugawa and Toyotomi?

                        Different concepts. Most samurai surnames were actually adopted -- most being
                        the places that the families were sited -- but adana are specifically byname
                        type things (Amago being the only one I can recall to have actually become a
                        surname).

                        Toyotomi was granted by the Emperor, BTW -- it was an "awarded" name (for want
                        of a better term).

                        > Then there are cases where family clan members took different names--I'm
                        > recalling some fighting that happened out in the west that looks like it
                        > is all between the same families, but they have grown distant enough to
                        > form new ones, with different names based on their locations.
                        >
                        > Also I believe that the first 'Ii' was given his surname as part of a
                        > promotional package, as it were--just some no-family foot soldier that
                        > became a warrior important enough to have a last name.

                        Possible, but I don't know; I've never really studied the Ii -- but I love their
                        castle. <G>

                        > I'd be more inclined to think these types of names would be locatives,
                        > though.

                        Well, Ii is definitely locative in form...

                        Effingham
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