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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Patterns....

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  • Ii Saburou
    ... Hmmm, unfortunately I m not sure how to help you here. It would actually be easier to go pre-17th century for covering armour, I would think. The
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 5 9:30 AM
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      On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, esquire122 wrote:

      > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
      > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
      > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.
      >
      > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
      > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
      > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period. While
      > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
      > is just my wish to appear to have none. Of course, having said
      > that, it will be impossible to hide my helm or my gauntlets, but
      > at least the rest of the armor can remain hidden. I was hoping
      > to hide my leg armor with a hakama and my arm, shoulder, and chest
      > armor with a natural looking garment.

      Hmmm, unfortunately I'm not sure how to help you here. It would actually
      be easier to go pre-17th century for covering armour, I would think. The
      religious route would also make it easier.

      What kind of armour do you have? Late period, you can easily get away
      with a good, metal breastplate, as they were coming in from outside
      (usually being modified, but you can skip that).

      I'm not as knowledgable about post-period, clothes, unfortunately.

      Now, with minimal armour, you could probably wear a hitatare and hakama
      over your clothes.

      I think that Koredono-gimi's recommendation about a jinbaori is probably
      the best. For one, you have a large freedom as to just what you want to
      do for the design! You can get some really cool stuff with jinbaori.

      -Ii
    • Donald Luby
      ... Glad to be of help. ... Well, such a thing is possible - I did it myself for a few years until my knight required that all of his squires wear armor of
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 5 9:53 AM
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        On Mar 5, 2004, at 12:00 PM, esquire122 wrote:

        > Hello Everyone,
        >
        > Thank you to everyone who answered my questions, especially, Sir
        > Koredono. I have looked at your patterns and found them to be
        > very interesting.

        Glad to be of help.

        > Ii writes:
        >>> That may be a bit out of period
        >>> for our society but I am going to wear it for other
        >>> occasions such as the informal Kendo group we have
        >>> here locally.
        >>
        >> Where is 'here'?
        >
        > Shire of the Eagle, Auburn University, AL
        >
        >
        > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
        > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
        > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.
        >
        > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
        > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
        > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period. While
        > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
        > is just my wish to appear to have none. Of course, having said
        > that, it will be impossible to hide my helm or my gauntlets, but
        > at least the rest of the armor can remain hidden. I was hoping
        > to hide my leg armor with a hakama and my arm, shoulder, and chest
        > armor with a natural looking garment.

        Well, such a thing is possible - I did it myself for a few years until
        my knight required that all of his squires wear armor of very similar
        armor and lacing patterns; we certainly look much better as a unit for
        it. Certainly if you wanted to go with 'Society minimum' armor (I'm
        uncertain what the requirements are for Meridies, but I doubt it's much
        higher than that, based on what I've seen worn at Gulf Wars in past
        years), everything except for gauntlets and kabuto can be easily
        covered by kosode and hakama - elbow and knee cops are easy, and a
        kidney belt shouldn't be too hard either. Since the East had more
        requirements than that, years ago, I also had to put a rigid plate on
        my sternum, simple black leather cops on the shoulders, and very
        minimal haidate, which since it hung off the kidney belt that solved
        two issues at once. Also, the kimono I wore, which covered all of my
        legal target areas, was padded/quilted so that I had some minimal
        bruise protection where I didn't have rigid protection.

        > Sir Koredono writes:
        >> As for hiding the armor, I don't think having kimono/kosode *over*
        >> thearmor is necessarily a good way to go, just because it would
        >> look odd. OTOH, wearing a jinbaori might be just the thing - I've
        >> been known to do that myself, but just to look even cooler, not to
        >> hide anything.
        >
        > That is the kind of information that I am looking to learn.
        > Since you will be at Gulf Wars, I will be there at Hastings
        > Field in a black surcoat, white trim with a fimbriated saltire
        > with a argent star within on each shoulder covering. I will
        > also be carrying my katana, black suede handle, aluminum tsuba,
        > and curved rattan with thrusting tip.
        >
        > I don't know what you will be wearing

        Well, for the battles, I'll be with the King of AEthelmearc, and except
        for the ravine, I'll have a sashimono with my mon (three lozenges
        within a mascle argent) and my barony's badge (a comet argent) for the
        battles; my do also has my mon laced into the sode. While I don't
        expect there to be a lot of other Japanese personae there, here's a
        link to a pic of me at Gulf Wars last year to make it a little easier
        to spot me:
        http://www.capnmac.com/sca/picturepages/2003/gulfwar2k3/pages/
        012gulfwar2k3.htm

        > but I will also being doing combat archery.

        I may bring my yumi and fire back golf tubes in the more static battles
        (ravine and fort), but that's not anything definite.

        > If you see me, please contact me. I would love for my wife
        > to see your garb, and ask you questions about making it.

        She would certainly be welcome to; I'm always willing to answer
        questions.

        > Respectfully in the service,
        > Aylwin Watkyns
        > Shire of the Eagle
        > mka (East Central Alabama)


        Sir Koredono
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        Just a I m proud of my prentices moment. Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of Atlantia (K PACA?). He performed a series
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 9 11:01 AM
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          Just a "I'm proud of my 'prentices" moment.

          Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of
          Atlantia (K'PACA?). He performed a series of pieces in various styles (from
          French trouveres materiel to ancient Chinese tales (to the infamous "Namu Amida"
          song -- to the tune of "Feliz Navidad" for a light moment) and smoked the
          competition.

          Medetaki koto zonzuru!*

          I'm very proud of my apprentiges.

          Effingham
          *"I know this is an auspicious thing" -- but it loses in the translation
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... One might point out, though, that if you were to take up fencing you would wear fencing gear because it is correct for the sport, not what you wear to do
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 9 11:06 AM
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            esquire122 wrote:

            > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
            > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
            > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.

            One might point out, though, that if you were to take up fencing you would wear
            fencing gear because it is correct for the sport, not what you wear to do
            another one. People who play both baseball and football wear different outfits
            for each sport, no? <G>

            > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
            > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
            > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period.

            I can't understand why, as the Edo period is outside the purview of the SCA. Our
            cutoff is 1600, and Edo began in either 1600 or 1603 (depending on your counting).

            > While
            > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
            > is just my wish to appear to have none.

            Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable European model.
            "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to look like I'm at a feast
            instead of in the field."

            I don't get it.


            Effingham
          • Matt L
            congradulations Ii-dono, and congradulations effingham-dono... Ii brings your house much honor yoshimasa ... From: Anthony J. Bryant
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 9 11:25 AM
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              congradulations Ii-dono, and congradulations effingham-dono... Ii brings your house much honor

              yoshimasa

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Anthony J. Bryant [SMTP:ajbryant@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 2:01 PM
              To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [SCA-JML] Bragging time

              Just a "I'm proud of my 'prentices" moment.

              Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of
              Atlantia (K'PACA?). He performed a series of pieces in various styles (from
              French trouveres materiel to ancient Chinese tales (to the infamous "Namu Amida"
              song -- to the tune of "Feliz Navidad" for a light moment) and smoked the
              competition.

              Medetaki koto zonzuru!*

              I'm very proud of my apprentiges.

              Effingham
              *"I know this is an auspicious thing" -- but it loses in the translation



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            • ladypyrate@charter.net
              Many congratulations Ii-domo. Mistress Rachel of Nottinghill told me about your performance, and I wish I could have traveled to see it. Meadhbh inghean
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 9 12:42 PM
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                Many congratulations Ii-domo. Mistress Rachel of Nottinghill told me about your performance, and I wish I could have traveled to see it.

                Meadhbh inghean Thaidgh ui Dohmniall
                Gaijin sailor in the lonely seas of deep southern Atlantia

                >
                > From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                > Date: 2004/03/09 Tue PM 02:01:13 EST
                > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [SCA-JML] Bragging time
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ii Saburou
                ... I must humbly correct this flattering praise as there was no assumption of title in the process. It was an enjoyable experience, with many good
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 9 4:16 PM
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                  On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                  > Just a "I'm proud of my 'prentices" moment.
                  >
                  > Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of
                  > Atlantia (K'PACA?). He performed a series of pieces in various styles (from
                  > French trouveres materiel to ancient Chinese tales (to the infamous "Namu Amida"
                  > song -- to the tune of "Feliz Navidad" for a light moment) and smoked the
                  > competition.

                  I must humbly correct this flattering praise as there was no assumption of
                  title in the process. It was an enjoyable experience, with many good
                  competitors, though.

                  -Ii
                • Andrew Leitch
                  I don t know. Is there a comparable Japanese equivalent of the European Tourney? Would they wear armour to it? If not, I could imagine our friend here thinks
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 10 12:31 AM
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                    I don't know. Is there a comparable Japanese equivalent of the European
                    Tourney? Would they wear armour to it?

                    If not, I could imagine our friend here thinks of coming to a tourney
                    dressed in Japanese persona as the equivalent of a ronin walking up to the
                    local monastary's martial arts competition as you see in one of those
                    Musashi movies (yes I know its Edo Jidai). Now my impression is that ronin
                    generally don't walk around in armour (or can even afford it).

                    Just a few thoughts.

                    - Andre


                    Anthony J. Bryant writes:
                    esquire122 wrote:

                    > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
                    > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
                    > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.

                    One might point out, though, that if you were to take up fencing you would
                    wear
                    fencing gear because it is correct for the sport, not what you wear to do
                    another one. People who play both baseball and football wear different
                    outfits
                    for each sport, no? <G>

                    > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
                    > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
                    > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period.

                    I can't understand why, as the Edo period is outside the purview of the
                    SCA. Our
                    cutoff is 1600, and Edo began in either 1600 or 1603 (depending on your
                    counting).

                    > While
                    > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
                    > is just my wish to appear to have none.

                    Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable European
                    model.
                    "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to look like I'm at a
                    feast
                    instead of in the field."

                    I don't get it.


                    Effingham
                  • esquire122
                    Hello Everyone, ... Perhaps it is my lack of expertise in Japanese history and culture that is the cause of confusion. For this, I apologize. On the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 10 6:44 AM
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                      Hello Everyone,

                      Effingham writes:
                      >Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable
                      >European model. "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to
                      >look like I'm at a feast instead of in the field."
                      > I don't get it.
                      > Effingham

                      Perhaps it is my lack of expertise in Japanese history and culture
                      that is the cause of confusion. For this, I apologize.

                      On the battlefield, I have a personal preference, (not speaking
                      of a Japanese theme) for wearing a surcoat and hiding my stainless-
                      steel armor. For some time, I have thought of assuming a Japanese
                      persona just for the battlefield. As far as weapons, I prefer my 44"
                      rattan Katana to my other weapons only because I have mundane
                      martial experience although I would NOT call myself a swordsman.

                      A Katana would look out of place with European battlefield garb
                      so I began to investigate the possibility of a Japanese persona and
                      clothing so that it would complement the katana and not clash.
                      I am afraid, owing to my lack of knowledge of Japanese culture
                      and history that I may not speak precisely enough to be
                      understood. I simply like the look of a fighter on the battlefield
                      who shows no armor but you "understand" it is worn under garb.
                      If that isn't a historically accurate that Japanese fought on the
                      battlefield without armor, then I need to re-align my focus.

                      If the Edo period is out of SCA period, then I understand. I will
                      try to do more research before asking questions so that at least
                      they will be framed with a more appropriate understanding of how I
                      wish to appear on the battlefield, if I indeed pursue a Japanese
                      battlefied persona as I have desired.

                      Respectfully,
                      Aylwin
                    • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                      ... The japanese battlefield is fully armoured. Men of distinction wore armour that was notable by the armour s style, colors, lacing patterns, and/or
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 10 8:55 AM
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                        > ... I simply like the look of a fighter on the battlefield
                        > who shows no armor but you "understand" it is worn under garb.
                        > If that isn't a historically accurate that Japanese fought on the
                        > battlefield without armor, then I need to re-align my focus.
                        >

                        The japanese battlefield is fully armoured. Men of distinction wore
                        armour that was notable by the armour's style, colors, lacing
                        patterns, and/or 'grotesque' helmet crests. Peasant soldiers would
                        wear whatever armour they could find. And, by the late 1500s,
                        standardized "army issue" (munition) armours were made for those in
                        between.

                        If I misunderstand you, and you are asking if any Japanese warriors
                        wore their armour under some garment, then you might want to look at
                        the warrior monks known as sohei or yamabushi, though they tend to
                        fight with polearms. Some religious samurai would also wear religious
                        robes over their armour.

                        See:
                        http://www.akataka.co.uk/images/funky_shoes.jpg
                        http://web.tiscali.it/gandalfilgrigio/mitsu/yamabushi.jpg
                        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/21.htm

                        Rent the movies Ran or Kagemusha, or see the Last Samurai, to get a
                        basic feel for Japanese battlefields.

                        Otagiri
                      • Anthony J. Bryant
                        ... There s nothing to apologize for. ... Ah. You should probably watch a couple of films (I recommend Ran, Kagemusha, and Samurai Banners as
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 12 9:13 AM
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                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "esquire122" <watkijm@a...> wrote:
                          > Hello Everyone,
                          >
                          > Effingham writes:
                          > >Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable
                          > >European model. "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to
                          > >look like I'm at a feast instead of in the field."
                          >
                          > Perhaps it is my lack of expertise in Japanese history and culture
                          > that is the cause of confusion. For this, I apologize.

                          There's nothing to apologize for.

                          <snip>

                          > A Katana would look out of place with European battlefield garb
                          > so I began to investigate the possibility of a Japanese persona and
                          > clothing so that it would complement the katana and not clash.
                          > I am afraid, owing to my lack of knowledge of Japanese culture
                          > and history that I may not speak precisely enough to be
                          > understood. I simply like the look of a fighter on the battlefield
                          > who shows no armor but you "understand" it is worn under garb.

                          Ah. You should probably watch a couple of films (I recommend "Ran,"
                          "Kagemusha," and "Samurai Banners" as big-budget battle-fests to see
                          what a Japanese battlefield looks like. As a rule, you don't fight
                          without armour, unless you're caught up in a street brawl of some sort.


                          > If the Edo period is out of SCA period, then I understand. I will
                          > try to do more research before asking questions so that at least
                          > they will be framed with a more appropriate understanding of how I
                          > wish to appear on the battlefield, if I indeed pursue a Japanese
                          > battlefied persona as I have desired.

                          Pshaw! (I think that's how it's spelled. <G>) Ask away! There are
                          several ways to find out things, and one of the easier ones is to ask
                          for direction, info, and help. If you hadn't asked, you wouldn't have
                          known. <G>

                          Most of us are rather helpful, though I can be a bit... um... spicy at
                          times.

                          Effingham
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