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Re: Patterns....

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  • esquire122
    Hello Everyone, Thank you to everyone who answered my questions, especially, Sir Koredono. I have looked at your patterns and found them to be very
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 5, 2004
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      Hello Everyone,

      Thank you to everyone who answered my questions, especially, Sir
      Koredono. I have looked at your patterns and found them to be
      very interesting.

      Ii writes:
      > That may be a bit out of period
      > for our society but I am going to wear it for other
      > occasions such as the informal Kendo group we have
      > here locally.

      >Where is 'here'?

      Shire of the Eagle, Auburn University, AL


      In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
      a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
      arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.

      It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
      possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
      appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period. While
      I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
      is just my wish to appear to have none. Of course, having said
      that, it will be impossible to hide my helm or my gauntlets, but
      at least the rest of the armor can remain hidden. I was hoping
      to hide my leg armor with a hakama and my arm, shoulder, and chest
      armor with a natural looking garment.

      Sir Koredono writes:
      >As for hiding the armor, I don't think having kimono/kosode *over*
      >thearmor is necessarily a good way to go, just because it would
      >look odd. OTOH, wearing a jinbaori might be just the thing - I've
      >been known to do that myself, but just to look even cooler, not to
      >hide anything.

      That is the kind of information that I am looking to learn.
      Since you will be at Gulf Wars, I will be there at Hastings
      Field in a black surcoat, white trim with a fimbriated saltire
      with a argent star within on each shoulder covering. I will
      also be carrying my katana, black suede handle, aluminum tsuba,
      and curved rattan with thrusting tip. I don't know what you
      will be wearing but I will also being doing combat archery.
      If you see me, please contact me. I would love for my wife
      to see your garb, and ask you questions about making it.

      Respectfully in the service,
      Aylwin Watkyns
      Shire of the Eagle
      mka (East Central Alabama)
    • Ii Saburou
      ... Hmmm, unfortunately I m not sure how to help you here. It would actually be easier to go pre-17th century for covering armour, I would think. The
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 5, 2004
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        On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, esquire122 wrote:

        > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
        > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
        > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.
        >
        > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
        > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
        > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period. While
        > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
        > is just my wish to appear to have none. Of course, having said
        > that, it will be impossible to hide my helm or my gauntlets, but
        > at least the rest of the armor can remain hidden. I was hoping
        > to hide my leg armor with a hakama and my arm, shoulder, and chest
        > armor with a natural looking garment.

        Hmmm, unfortunately I'm not sure how to help you here. It would actually
        be easier to go pre-17th century for covering armour, I would think. The
        religious route would also make it easier.

        What kind of armour do you have? Late period, you can easily get away
        with a good, metal breastplate, as they were coming in from outside
        (usually being modified, but you can skip that).

        I'm not as knowledgable about post-period, clothes, unfortunately.

        Now, with minimal armour, you could probably wear a hitatare and hakama
        over your clothes.

        I think that Koredono-gimi's recommendation about a jinbaori is probably
        the best. For one, you have a large freedom as to just what you want to
        do for the design! You can get some really cool stuff with jinbaori.

        -Ii
      • Donald Luby
        ... Glad to be of help. ... Well, such a thing is possible - I did it myself for a few years until my knight required that all of his squires wear armor of
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 5, 2004
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          On Mar 5, 2004, at 12:00 PM, esquire122 wrote:

          > Hello Everyone,
          >
          > Thank you to everyone who answered my questions, especially, Sir
          > Koredono. I have looked at your patterns and found them to be
          > very interesting.

          Glad to be of help.

          > Ii writes:
          >>> That may be a bit out of period
          >>> for our society but I am going to wear it for other
          >>> occasions such as the informal Kendo group we have
          >>> here locally.
          >>
          >> Where is 'here'?
          >
          > Shire of the Eagle, Auburn University, AL
          >
          >
          > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
          > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
          > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.
          >
          > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
          > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
          > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period. While
          > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
          > is just my wish to appear to have none. Of course, having said
          > that, it will be impossible to hide my helm or my gauntlets, but
          > at least the rest of the armor can remain hidden. I was hoping
          > to hide my leg armor with a hakama and my arm, shoulder, and chest
          > armor with a natural looking garment.

          Well, such a thing is possible - I did it myself for a few years until
          my knight required that all of his squires wear armor of very similar
          armor and lacing patterns; we certainly look much better as a unit for
          it. Certainly if you wanted to go with 'Society minimum' armor (I'm
          uncertain what the requirements are for Meridies, but I doubt it's much
          higher than that, based on what I've seen worn at Gulf Wars in past
          years), everything except for gauntlets and kabuto can be easily
          covered by kosode and hakama - elbow and knee cops are easy, and a
          kidney belt shouldn't be too hard either. Since the East had more
          requirements than that, years ago, I also had to put a rigid plate on
          my sternum, simple black leather cops on the shoulders, and very
          minimal haidate, which since it hung off the kidney belt that solved
          two issues at once. Also, the kimono I wore, which covered all of my
          legal target areas, was padded/quilted so that I had some minimal
          bruise protection where I didn't have rigid protection.

          > Sir Koredono writes:
          >> As for hiding the armor, I don't think having kimono/kosode *over*
          >> thearmor is necessarily a good way to go, just because it would
          >> look odd. OTOH, wearing a jinbaori might be just the thing - I've
          >> been known to do that myself, but just to look even cooler, not to
          >> hide anything.
          >
          > That is the kind of information that I am looking to learn.
          > Since you will be at Gulf Wars, I will be there at Hastings
          > Field in a black surcoat, white trim with a fimbriated saltire
          > with a argent star within on each shoulder covering. I will
          > also be carrying my katana, black suede handle, aluminum tsuba,
          > and curved rattan with thrusting tip.
          >
          > I don't know what you will be wearing

          Well, for the battles, I'll be with the King of AEthelmearc, and except
          for the ravine, I'll have a sashimono with my mon (three lozenges
          within a mascle argent) and my barony's badge (a comet argent) for the
          battles; my do also has my mon laced into the sode. While I don't
          expect there to be a lot of other Japanese personae there, here's a
          link to a pic of me at Gulf Wars last year to make it a little easier
          to spot me:
          http://www.capnmac.com/sca/picturepages/2003/gulfwar2k3/pages/
          012gulfwar2k3.htm

          > but I will also being doing combat archery.

          I may bring my yumi and fire back golf tubes in the more static battles
          (ravine and fort), but that's not anything definite.

          > If you see me, please contact me. I would love for my wife
          > to see your garb, and ask you questions about making it.

          She would certainly be welcome to; I'm always willing to answer
          questions.

          > Respectfully in the service,
          > Aylwin Watkyns
          > Shire of the Eagle
          > mka (East Central Alabama)


          Sir Koredono
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          Just a I m proud of my prentices moment. Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of Atlantia (K PACA?). He performed a series
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 9, 2004
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            Just a "I'm proud of my 'prentices" moment.

            Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of
            Atlantia (K'PACA?). He performed a series of pieces in various styles (from
            French trouveres materiel to ancient Chinese tales (to the infamous "Namu Amida"
            song -- to the tune of "Feliz Navidad" for a light moment) and smoked the
            competition.

            Medetaki koto zonzuru!*

            I'm very proud of my apprentiges.

            Effingham
            *"I know this is an auspicious thing" -- but it loses in the translation
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... One might point out, though, that if you were to take up fencing you would wear fencing gear because it is correct for the sport, not what you wear to do
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 9, 2004
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              esquire122 wrote:

              > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
              > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
              > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.

              One might point out, though, that if you were to take up fencing you would wear
              fencing gear because it is correct for the sport, not what you wear to do
              another one. People who play both baseball and football wear different outfits
              for each sport, no? <G>

              > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
              > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
              > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period.

              I can't understand why, as the Edo period is outside the purview of the SCA. Our
              cutoff is 1600, and Edo began in either 1600 or 1603 (depending on your counting).

              > While
              > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
              > is just my wish to appear to have none.

              Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable European model.
              "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to look like I'm at a feast
              instead of in the field."

              I don't get it.


              Effingham
            • Matt L
              congradulations Ii-dono, and congradulations effingham-dono... Ii brings your house much honor yoshimasa ... From: Anthony J. Bryant
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 9, 2004
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                congradulations Ii-dono, and congradulations effingham-dono... Ii brings your house much honor

                yoshimasa

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Anthony J. Bryant [SMTP:ajbryant@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 2:01 PM
                To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [SCA-JML] Bragging time

                Just a "I'm proud of my 'prentices" moment.

                Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of
                Atlantia (K'PACA?). He performed a series of pieces in various styles (from
                French trouveres materiel to ancient Chinese tales (to the infamous "Namu Amida"
                song -- to the tune of "Feliz Navidad" for a light moment) and smoked the
                competition.

                Medetaki koto zonzuru!*

                I'm very proud of my apprentiges.

                Effingham
                *"I know this is an auspicious thing" -- but it loses in the translation



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              • ladypyrate@charter.net
                Many congratulations Ii-domo. Mistress Rachel of Nottinghill told me about your performance, and I wish I could have traveled to see it. Meadhbh inghean
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 9, 2004
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                  Many congratulations Ii-domo. Mistress Rachel of Nottinghill told me about your performance, and I wish I could have traveled to see it.

                  Meadhbh inghean Thaidgh ui Dohmniall
                  Gaijin sailor in the lonely seas of deep southern Atlantia

                  >
                  > From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                  > Date: 2004/03/09 Tue PM 02:01:13 EST
                  > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [SCA-JML] Bragging time
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ii Saburou
                  ... I must humbly correct this flattering praise as there was no assumption of title in the process. It was an enjoyable experience, with many good
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 9, 2004
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                    On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                    > Just a "I'm proud of my 'prentices" moment.
                    >
                    > Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of
                    > Atlantia (K'PACA?). He performed a series of pieces in various styles (from
                    > French trouveres materiel to ancient Chinese tales (to the infamous "Namu Amida"
                    > song -- to the tune of "Feliz Navidad" for a light moment) and smoked the
                    > competition.

                    I must humbly correct this flattering praise as there was no assumption of
                    title in the process. It was an enjoyable experience, with many good
                    competitors, though.

                    -Ii
                  • Andrew Leitch
                    I don t know. Is there a comparable Japanese equivalent of the European Tourney? Would they wear armour to it? If not, I could imagine our friend here thinks
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 10, 2004
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                      I don't know. Is there a comparable Japanese equivalent of the European
                      Tourney? Would they wear armour to it?

                      If not, I could imagine our friend here thinks of coming to a tourney
                      dressed in Japanese persona as the equivalent of a ronin walking up to the
                      local monastary's martial arts competition as you see in one of those
                      Musashi movies (yes I know its Edo Jidai). Now my impression is that ronin
                      generally don't walk around in armour (or can even afford it).

                      Just a few thoughts.

                      - Andre


                      Anthony J. Bryant writes:
                      esquire122 wrote:

                      > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
                      > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
                      > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.

                      One might point out, though, that if you were to take up fencing you would
                      wear
                      fencing gear because it is correct for the sport, not what you wear to do
                      another one. People who play both baseball and football wear different
                      outfits
                      for each sport, no? <G>

                      > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
                      > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
                      > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period.

                      I can't understand why, as the Edo period is outside the purview of the
                      SCA. Our
                      cutoff is 1600, and Edo began in either 1600 or 1603 (depending on your
                      counting).

                      > While
                      > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
                      > is just my wish to appear to have none.

                      Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable European
                      model.
                      "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to look like I'm at a
                      feast
                      instead of in the field."

                      I don't get it.


                      Effingham
                    • esquire122
                      Hello Everyone, ... Perhaps it is my lack of expertise in Japanese history and culture that is the cause of confusion. For this, I apologize. On the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 10, 2004
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                        Hello Everyone,

                        Effingham writes:
                        >Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable
                        >European model. "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to
                        >look like I'm at a feast instead of in the field."
                        > I don't get it.
                        > Effingham

                        Perhaps it is my lack of expertise in Japanese history and culture
                        that is the cause of confusion. For this, I apologize.

                        On the battlefield, I have a personal preference, (not speaking
                        of a Japanese theme) for wearing a surcoat and hiding my stainless-
                        steel armor. For some time, I have thought of assuming a Japanese
                        persona just for the battlefield. As far as weapons, I prefer my 44"
                        rattan Katana to my other weapons only because I have mundane
                        martial experience although I would NOT call myself a swordsman.

                        A Katana would look out of place with European battlefield garb
                        so I began to investigate the possibility of a Japanese persona and
                        clothing so that it would complement the katana and not clash.
                        I am afraid, owing to my lack of knowledge of Japanese culture
                        and history that I may not speak precisely enough to be
                        understood. I simply like the look of a fighter on the battlefield
                        who shows no armor but you "understand" it is worn under garb.
                        If that isn't a historically accurate that Japanese fought on the
                        battlefield without armor, then I need to re-align my focus.

                        If the Edo period is out of SCA period, then I understand. I will
                        try to do more research before asking questions so that at least
                        they will be framed with a more appropriate understanding of how I
                        wish to appear on the battlefield, if I indeed pursue a Japanese
                        battlefied persona as I have desired.

                        Respectfully,
                        Aylwin
                      • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                        ... The japanese battlefield is fully armoured. Men of distinction wore armour that was notable by the armour s style, colors, lacing patterns, and/or
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 10, 2004
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                          > ... I simply like the look of a fighter on the battlefield
                          > who shows no armor but you "understand" it is worn under garb.
                          > If that isn't a historically accurate that Japanese fought on the
                          > battlefield without armor, then I need to re-align my focus.
                          >

                          The japanese battlefield is fully armoured. Men of distinction wore
                          armour that was notable by the armour's style, colors, lacing
                          patterns, and/or 'grotesque' helmet crests. Peasant soldiers would
                          wear whatever armour they could find. And, by the late 1500s,
                          standardized "army issue" (munition) armours were made for those in
                          between.

                          If I misunderstand you, and you are asking if any Japanese warriors
                          wore their armour under some garment, then you might want to look at
                          the warrior monks known as sohei or yamabushi, though they tend to
                          fight with polearms. Some religious samurai would also wear religious
                          robes over their armour.

                          See:
                          http://www.akataka.co.uk/images/funky_shoes.jpg
                          http://web.tiscali.it/gandalfilgrigio/mitsu/yamabushi.jpg
                          http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/21.htm

                          Rent the movies Ran or Kagemusha, or see the Last Samurai, to get a
                          basic feel for Japanese battlefields.

                          Otagiri
                        • Anthony J. Bryant
                          ... There s nothing to apologize for. ... Ah. You should probably watch a couple of films (I recommend Ran, Kagemusha, and Samurai Banners as
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 12, 2004
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                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "esquire122" <watkijm@a...> wrote:
                            > Hello Everyone,
                            >
                            > Effingham writes:
                            > >Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable
                            > >European model. "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to
                            > >look like I'm at a feast instead of in the field."
                            >
                            > Perhaps it is my lack of expertise in Japanese history and culture
                            > that is the cause of confusion. For this, I apologize.

                            There's nothing to apologize for.

                            <snip>

                            > A Katana would look out of place with European battlefield garb
                            > so I began to investigate the possibility of a Japanese persona and
                            > clothing so that it would complement the katana and not clash.
                            > I am afraid, owing to my lack of knowledge of Japanese culture
                            > and history that I may not speak precisely enough to be
                            > understood. I simply like the look of a fighter on the battlefield
                            > who shows no armor but you "understand" it is worn under garb.

                            Ah. You should probably watch a couple of films (I recommend "Ran,"
                            "Kagemusha," and "Samurai Banners" as big-budget battle-fests to see
                            what a Japanese battlefield looks like. As a rule, you don't fight
                            without armour, unless you're caught up in a street brawl of some sort.


                            > If the Edo period is out of SCA period, then I understand. I will
                            > try to do more research before asking questions so that at least
                            > they will be framed with a more appropriate understanding of how I
                            > wish to appear on the battlefield, if I indeed pursue a Japanese
                            > battlefied persona as I have desired.

                            Pshaw! (I think that's how it's spelled. <G>) Ask away! There are
                            several ways to find out things, and one of the easier ones is to ask
                            for direction, info, and help. If you hadn't asked, you wouldn't have
                            known. <G>

                            Most of us are rather helpful, though I can be a bit... um... spicy at
                            times.

                            Effingham
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