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  • esquire122
    Hello Everyone, This is my first posting to this list. I am going to order round-earth.com s hakama pattern but I was wondering if anyone has a source for a
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 4, 2004
      Hello Everyone,

      This is my first posting to this list.

      I am going to order round-earth.com's hakama pattern
      but I was wondering if anyone has a source for
      a keikogi pattern? That may be a bit out of period
      for our society but I am going to wear it for other
      occasions such as the informal Kendo group we have
      here locally.

      I am afraid that I don't know much about Japanese clothing.
      For those that wear hakamas, and wear some sort of shirt,
      my question is that how long is the men's kimono that fits
      inside the hakama?

      Forgive my lack of proper Japanese terminology. I am still
      learning my way around Kendo equipment from Kendo The Definitive
      Guide. My persona is English but well traveled to have been exposed
      to Japanese martial arts. At Gulf Wars in two weeks, I would
      like to wear Japanese garb over my armor so that I can fight
      heavy weapons with my rattan katana.

      Thank you.

      Respectfully,
      Aylwin Watkyns
      Shire of the Eagle
    • Ii Saburou
      ... Where is here ? If you are doing kendo, I really recommend getting the appropriate gear, as a keikogi should be relatively tough. ... Long enough to cover
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 4, 2004
        On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, esquire122 wrote:

        > I am going to order round-earth.com's hakama pattern
        > but I was wondering if anyone has a source for
        > a keikogi pattern? That may be a bit out of period
        > for our society but I am going to wear it for other
        > occasions such as the informal Kendo group we have
        > here locally.

        Where is 'here'?

        If you are doing kendo, I really recommend getting the appropriate gear,
        as a keikogi should be relatively tough.

        > I am afraid that I don't know much about Japanese clothing.
        > For those that wear hakamas, and wear some sort of shirt,
        > my question is that how long is the men's kimono that fits
        > inside the hakama?

        Long enough to cover the gaps in the hakama, so you don't see anything
        underneath! ;)

        > Forgive my lack of proper Japanese terminology. I am still
        > learning my way around Kendo equipment from Kendo The Definitive
        > Guide. My persona is English but well traveled to have been exposed
        > to Japanese martial arts. At Gulf Wars in two weeks, I would
        > like to wear Japanese garb over my armor so that I can fight
        > heavy weapons with my rattan katana.

        Thoughts: if you fight in western armor, you can always just fight with a
        regular hand-and-a-half sword. As for Japanese clothes, you might
        consider the Files section and see what they have in the Garb area.
        Hitare-kamishimo would be the typical outfit for bushi in many instances
        (Hitatare and hakama over a kosode--patterns should be available in the
        Files section). However, if you are looking at wearing something over
        armor, then the question starts to become: what is your purpose? To cover
        up the armour? Do you want to look like an unarmored person (with a
        helmet) or are you looking for the equivalent of a surcoat to go over your
        armor?

        For just hiding armor, going the religious route might be the best--you
        could event cover your helmet, I would think.

        -Ii
      • Donald Luby
        ... Welcome! ... If you want, there are free ones online - mine is at http://www.dementia.org/~djl/sca/japanese/patterns.html, which also contains a
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 4, 2004
          On Mar 4, 2004, at 8:50 PM, esquire122 wrote:

          > Hello Everyone,
          >
          > This is my first posting to this list.

          Welcome!

          > I am going to order round-earth.com's hakama pattern

          If you want, there are free ones online - mine is at
          http://www.dementia.org/~djl/sca/japanese/patterns.html, which also
          contains a multi-purpose kimono / kosode / haori / jinbaori pattern as
          well.

          > but I was wondering if anyone has a source for
          > a keikogi pattern? That may be a bit out of period
          > for our society but I am going to wear it for other
          > occasions such as the informal Kendo group we have
          > here locally.

          Sorry, can't help you; since everything I make and wear is for SCA,
          I've never researched that, it being post-period.

          > I am afraid that I don't know much about Japanese clothing.
          > For those that wear hakamas, and wear some sort of shirt,
          > my question is that how long is the men's kimono that fits
          > inside the hakama?

          Personally, I make my kosode just shorter than knee-length, so they
          don't give weird bunching effects inside the hakama; my former knight
          wears full-length kimono and folds it up to about knee-length before
          putting on his hakama - same effect: mine is a an easier, more
          specialized garment, his is more multi-purpose (he can wear his without
          hakama, I really can't).

          > Forgive my lack of proper Japanese terminology. I am still
          > learning my way around Kendo equipment from Kendo The Definitive
          > Guide. My persona is English but well traveled to have been exposed
          > to Japanese martial arts. At Gulf Wars in two weeks, I would
          > like to wear Japanese garb over my armor so that I can fight
          > heavy weapons with my rattan katana.

          I'll be at Gulf Wars too, camping with AEthelmearc Royal; I should be
          on the field for some pickups at least one day, and some tourneys, as
          well as all the battles until I leave for the long drive home (some
          time Saturday), if you would like to do some work.

          > Thank you.
          >
          > Respectfully,
          > Aylwin Watkyns
          > Shire of the Eagle

          Sir Koredono
        • Donald Luby
          ... I have to agree; while good kendo hakama are not cheap (though I ve seen nice silk skirt hakama on ebay for $30 or so), I suspect that making a keikogi
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 4, 2004
            On Mar 4, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Ii Saburou wrote:

            > On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, esquire122 wrote:
            >
            >> I am going to order round-earth.com's hakama pattern
            >> but I was wondering if anyone has a source for
            >> a keikogi pattern? That may be a bit out of period
            >> for our society but I am going to wear it for other
            >> occasions such as the informal Kendo group we have
            >> here locally.
            >
            > Where is 'here'?
            >
            > If you are doing kendo, I really recommend getting the appropriate
            > gear,
            > as a keikogi should be relatively tough.

            I have to agree; while good kendo hakama are not cheap (though I've
            seen nice silk 'skirt' hakama on ebay for $30 or so), I suspect that
            making a keikogi would be a major pain, and in the end, probably really
            not worth the effort.

            >> I am afraid that I don't know much about Japanese clothing.
            >> For those that wear hakamas, and wear some sort of shirt,
            >> my question is that how long is the men's kimono that fits
            >> inside the hakama?
            >
            > Long enough to cover the gaps in the hakama, so you don't see anything
            > underneath! ;)

            That too!

            >> Forgive my lack of proper Japanese terminology. I am still
            >> learning my way around Kendo equipment from Kendo The Definitive
            >> Guide. My persona is English but well traveled to have been exposed
            >> to Japanese martial arts. At Gulf Wars in two weeks, I would
            >> like to wear Japanese garb over my armor so that I can fight
            >> heavy weapons with my rattan katana.
            >
            > Thoughts: if you fight in western armor, you can always just fight
            > with a
            > regular hand-and-a-half sword.

            Which, to be honest, is not at all different from katana (exc. for
            maybe the guard, and of course its style and usage).

            > As for Japanese clothes, you might
            > consider the Files section and see what they have in the Garb area.
            > Hitare-kamishimo would be the typical outfit for bushi in many
            > instances
            > (Hitatare and hakama over a kosode--patterns should be available in the
            > Files section). However, if you are looking at wearing something over
            > armor, then the question starts to become: what is your purpose? To
            > cover
            > up the armour? Do you want to look like an unarmored person (with a
            > helmet) or are you looking for the equivalent of a surcoat to go over
            > your
            > armor?
            >
            > For just hiding armor, going the religious route might be the best--you
            > could event cover your helmet, I would think.

            I've always wanted to go the Shingen route and wear a huge orange
            kabuki-style wig on top of my kabuto! I decided to wait until either
            a) I had my own household, and my own troops, or b) won a Crown
            Tourney; neither has happened (yet), so I haven't done it (yet).
            The Kenshin look, with the monk's cowl wrapped over the kabuto, would
            also be cool, but I'm to much of a Takeda supporter to ever do that.
            :)

            As for hiding the armor, I don't think having kimono/kosode *over* the
            armor is necessarily a good way to go, just because it would look odd.
            OTOH, wearing a jinbaori might be just the thing - I've been known to
            do that myself, but just to look even cooler, not to hide anything.

            > -Ii


            Sir Koredono
          • esquire122
            Hello Everyone, Thank you to everyone who answered my questions, especially, Sir Koredono. I have looked at your patterns and found them to be very
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 5, 2004
              Hello Everyone,

              Thank you to everyone who answered my questions, especially, Sir
              Koredono. I have looked at your patterns and found them to be
              very interesting.

              Ii writes:
              > That may be a bit out of period
              > for our society but I am going to wear it for other
              > occasions such as the informal Kendo group we have
              > here locally.

              >Where is 'here'?

              Shire of the Eagle, Auburn University, AL


              In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
              a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
              arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.

              It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
              possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
              appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period. While
              I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
              is just my wish to appear to have none. Of course, having said
              that, it will be impossible to hide my helm or my gauntlets, but
              at least the rest of the armor can remain hidden. I was hoping
              to hide my leg armor with a hakama and my arm, shoulder, and chest
              armor with a natural looking garment.

              Sir Koredono writes:
              >As for hiding the armor, I don't think having kimono/kosode *over*
              >thearmor is necessarily a good way to go, just because it would
              >look odd. OTOH, wearing a jinbaori might be just the thing - I've
              >been known to do that myself, but just to look even cooler, not to
              >hide anything.

              That is the kind of information that I am looking to learn.
              Since you will be at Gulf Wars, I will be there at Hastings
              Field in a black surcoat, white trim with a fimbriated saltire
              with a argent star within on each shoulder covering. I will
              also be carrying my katana, black suede handle, aluminum tsuba,
              and curved rattan with thrusting tip. I don't know what you
              will be wearing but I will also being doing combat archery.
              If you see me, please contact me. I would love for my wife
              to see your garb, and ask you questions about making it.

              Respectfully in the service,
              Aylwin Watkyns
              Shire of the Eagle
              mka (East Central Alabama)
            • Ii Saburou
              ... Hmmm, unfortunately I m not sure how to help you here. It would actually be easier to go pre-17th century for covering armour, I would think. The
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 5, 2004
                On Fri, 5 Mar 2004, esquire122 wrote:

                > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
                > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
                > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.
                >
                > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
                > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
                > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period. While
                > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
                > is just my wish to appear to have none. Of course, having said
                > that, it will be impossible to hide my helm or my gauntlets, but
                > at least the rest of the armor can remain hidden. I was hoping
                > to hide my leg armor with a hakama and my arm, shoulder, and chest
                > armor with a natural looking garment.

                Hmmm, unfortunately I'm not sure how to help you here. It would actually
                be easier to go pre-17th century for covering armour, I would think. The
                religious route would also make it easier.

                What kind of armour do you have? Late period, you can easily get away
                with a good, metal breastplate, as they were coming in from outside
                (usually being modified, but you can skip that).

                I'm not as knowledgable about post-period, clothes, unfortunately.

                Now, with minimal armour, you could probably wear a hitatare and hakama
                over your clothes.

                I think that Koredono-gimi's recommendation about a jinbaori is probably
                the best. For one, you have a large freedom as to just what you want to
                do for the design! You can get some really cool stuff with jinbaori.

                -Ii
              • Donald Luby
                ... Glad to be of help. ... Well, such a thing is possible - I did it myself for a few years until my knight required that all of his squires wear armor of
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 5, 2004
                  On Mar 5, 2004, at 12:00 PM, esquire122 wrote:

                  > Hello Everyone,
                  >
                  > Thank you to everyone who answered my questions, especially, Sir
                  > Koredono. I have looked at your patterns and found them to be
                  > very interesting.

                  Glad to be of help.

                  > Ii writes:
                  >>> That may be a bit out of period
                  >>> for our society but I am going to wear it for other
                  >>> occasions such as the informal Kendo group we have
                  >>> here locally.
                  >>
                  >> Where is 'here'?
                  >
                  > Shire of the Eagle, Auburn University, AL
                  >
                  >
                  > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
                  > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
                  > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.
                  >
                  > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
                  > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
                  > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period. While
                  > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
                  > is just my wish to appear to have none. Of course, having said
                  > that, it will be impossible to hide my helm or my gauntlets, but
                  > at least the rest of the armor can remain hidden. I was hoping
                  > to hide my leg armor with a hakama and my arm, shoulder, and chest
                  > armor with a natural looking garment.

                  Well, such a thing is possible - I did it myself for a few years until
                  my knight required that all of his squires wear armor of very similar
                  armor and lacing patterns; we certainly look much better as a unit for
                  it. Certainly if you wanted to go with 'Society minimum' armor (I'm
                  uncertain what the requirements are for Meridies, but I doubt it's much
                  higher than that, based on what I've seen worn at Gulf Wars in past
                  years), everything except for gauntlets and kabuto can be easily
                  covered by kosode and hakama - elbow and knee cops are easy, and a
                  kidney belt shouldn't be too hard either. Since the East had more
                  requirements than that, years ago, I also had to put a rigid plate on
                  my sternum, simple black leather cops on the shoulders, and very
                  minimal haidate, which since it hung off the kidney belt that solved
                  two issues at once. Also, the kimono I wore, which covered all of my
                  legal target areas, was padded/quilted so that I had some minimal
                  bruise protection where I didn't have rigid protection.

                  > Sir Koredono writes:
                  >> As for hiding the armor, I don't think having kimono/kosode *over*
                  >> thearmor is necessarily a good way to go, just because it would
                  >> look odd. OTOH, wearing a jinbaori might be just the thing - I've
                  >> been known to do that myself, but just to look even cooler, not to
                  >> hide anything.
                  >
                  > That is the kind of information that I am looking to learn.
                  > Since you will be at Gulf Wars, I will be there at Hastings
                  > Field in a black surcoat, white trim with a fimbriated saltire
                  > with a argent star within on each shoulder covering. I will
                  > also be carrying my katana, black suede handle, aluminum tsuba,
                  > and curved rattan with thrusting tip.
                  >
                  > I don't know what you will be wearing

                  Well, for the battles, I'll be with the King of AEthelmearc, and except
                  for the ravine, I'll have a sashimono with my mon (three lozenges
                  within a mascle argent) and my barony's badge (a comet argent) for the
                  battles; my do also has my mon laced into the sode. While I don't
                  expect there to be a lot of other Japanese personae there, here's a
                  link to a pic of me at Gulf Wars last year to make it a little easier
                  to spot me:
                  http://www.capnmac.com/sca/picturepages/2003/gulfwar2k3/pages/
                  012gulfwar2k3.htm

                  > but I will also being doing combat archery.

                  I may bring my yumi and fire back golf tubes in the more static battles
                  (ravine and fort), but that's not anything definite.

                  > If you see me, please contact me. I would love for my wife
                  > to see your garb, and ask you questions about making it.

                  She would certainly be welcome to; I'm always willing to answer
                  questions.

                  > Respectfully in the service,
                  > Aylwin Watkyns
                  > Shire of the Eagle
                  > mka (East Central Alabama)


                  Sir Koredono
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  Just a I m proud of my prentices moment. Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of Atlantia (K PACA?). He performed a series
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 9, 2004
                    Just a "I'm proud of my 'prentices" moment.

                    Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of
                    Atlantia (K'PACA?). He performed a series of pieces in various styles (from
                    French trouveres materiel to ancient Chinese tales (to the infamous "Namu Amida"
                    song -- to the tune of "Feliz Navidad" for a light moment) and smoked the
                    competition.

                    Medetaki koto zonzuru!*

                    I'm very proud of my apprentiges.

                    Effingham
                    *"I know this is an auspicious thing" -- but it loses in the translation
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... One might point out, though, that if you were to take up fencing you would wear fencing gear because it is correct for the sport, not what you wear to do
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 9, 2004
                      esquire122 wrote:

                      > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
                      > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
                      > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.

                      One might point out, though, that if you were to take up fencing you would wear
                      fencing gear because it is correct for the sport, not what you wear to do
                      another one. People who play both baseball and football wear different outfits
                      for each sport, no? <G>

                      > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
                      > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
                      > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period.

                      I can't understand why, as the Edo period is outside the purview of the SCA. Our
                      cutoff is 1600, and Edo began in either 1600 or 1603 (depending on your counting).

                      > While
                      > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
                      > is just my wish to appear to have none.

                      Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable European model.
                      "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to look like I'm at a feast
                      instead of in the field."

                      I don't get it.


                      Effingham
                    • Matt L
                      congradulations Ii-dono, and congradulations effingham-dono... Ii brings your house much honor yoshimasa ... From: Anthony J. Bryant
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 9, 2004
                        congradulations Ii-dono, and congradulations effingham-dono... Ii brings your house much honor

                        yoshimasa

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Anthony J. Bryant [SMTP:ajbryant@...]
                        Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 2:01 PM
                        To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [SCA-JML] Bragging time

                        Just a "I'm proud of my 'prentices" moment.

                        Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of
                        Atlantia (K'PACA?). He performed a series of pieces in various styles (from
                        French trouveres materiel to ancient Chinese tales (to the infamous "Namu Amida"
                        song -- to the tune of "Feliz Navidad" for a light moment) and smoked the
                        competition.

                        Medetaki koto zonzuru!*

                        I'm very proud of my apprentiges.

                        Effingham
                        *"I know this is an auspicious thing" -- but it loses in the translation



                        UNSUBSCRIBE: E-mail sca-jml-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      • ladypyrate@charter.net
                        Many congratulations Ii-domo. Mistress Rachel of Nottinghill told me about your performance, and I wish I could have traveled to see it. Meadhbh inghean
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 9, 2004
                          Many congratulations Ii-domo. Mistress Rachel of Nottinghill told me about your performance, and I wish I could have traveled to see it.

                          Meadhbh inghean Thaidgh ui Dohmniall
                          Gaijin sailor in the lonely seas of deep southern Atlantia

                          >
                          > From: "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@...>
                          > Date: 2004/03/09 Tue PM 02:01:13 EST
                          > To: sca-jml@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [SCA-JML] Bragging time
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ii Saburou
                          ... I must humbly correct this flattering praise as there was no assumption of title in the process. It was an enjoyable experience, with many good
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 9, 2004
                            On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

                            > Just a "I'm proud of my 'prentices" moment.
                            >
                            > Ii Katsumori has just been named the Kingdom Performing Arts Champion of
                            > Atlantia (K'PACA?). He performed a series of pieces in various styles (from
                            > French trouveres materiel to ancient Chinese tales (to the infamous "Namu Amida"
                            > song -- to the tune of "Feliz Navidad" for a light moment) and smoked the
                            > competition.

                            I must humbly correct this flattering praise as there was no assumption of
                            title in the process. It was an enjoyable experience, with many good
                            competitors, though.

                            -Ii
                          • Andrew Leitch
                            I don t know. Is there a comparable Japanese equivalent of the European Tourney? Would they wear armour to it? If not, I could imagine our friend here thinks
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 10, 2004
                              I don't know. Is there a comparable Japanese equivalent of the European
                              Tourney? Would they wear armour to it?

                              If not, I could imagine our friend here thinks of coming to a tourney
                              dressed in Japanese persona as the equivalent of a ronin walking up to the
                              local monastary's martial arts competition as you see in one of those
                              Musashi movies (yes I know its Edo Jidai). Now my impression is that ronin
                              generally don't walk around in armour (or can even afford it).

                              Just a few thoughts.

                              - Andre


                              Anthony J. Bryant writes:
                              esquire122 wrote:

                              > In my last post, what I didn't explain was that I assume
                              > a Japanese persona on the battlefield because of my years of martial
                              > arts training. It just feels comfortable mentally and natural.

                              One might point out, though, that if you were to take up fencing you would
                              wear
                              fencing gear because it is correct for the sport, not what you wear to do
                              another one. People who play both baseball and football wear different
                              outfits
                              for each sport, no? <G>

                              > It was my desire to appear on the battlefield, to the extent
                              > possible, with my armor hidden beneath my clothing so as to
                              > appear much like unarmored samurai of the Edo period.

                              I can't understand why, as the Edo period is outside the purview of the
                              SCA. Our
                              cutoff is 1600, and Edo began in either 1600 or 1603 (depending on your
                              counting).

                              > While
                              > I do realize that Japanese warriors wore extensive armor, it
                              > is just my wish to appear to have none.

                              Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable European
                              model.
                              "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to look like I'm at a
                              feast
                              instead of in the field."

                              I don't get it.


                              Effingham
                            • esquire122
                              Hello Everyone, ... Perhaps it is my lack of expertise in Japanese history and culture that is the cause of confusion. For this, I apologize. On the
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 10, 2004
                                Hello Everyone,

                                Effingham writes:
                                >Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable
                                >European model. "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to
                                >look like I'm at a feast instead of in the field."
                                > I don't get it.
                                > Effingham

                                Perhaps it is my lack of expertise in Japanese history and culture
                                that is the cause of confusion. For this, I apologize.

                                On the battlefield, I have a personal preference, (not speaking
                                of a Japanese theme) for wearing a surcoat and hiding my stainless-
                                steel armor. For some time, I have thought of assuming a Japanese
                                persona just for the battlefield. As far as weapons, I prefer my 44"
                                rattan Katana to my other weapons only because I have mundane
                                martial experience although I would NOT call myself a swordsman.

                                A Katana would look out of place with European battlefield garb
                                so I began to investigate the possibility of a Japanese persona and
                                clothing so that it would complement the katana and not clash.
                                I am afraid, owing to my lack of knowledge of Japanese culture
                                and history that I may not speak precisely enough to be
                                understood. I simply like the look of a fighter on the battlefield
                                who shows no armor but you "understand" it is worn under garb.
                                If that isn't a historically accurate that Japanese fought on the
                                battlefield without armor, then I need to re-align my focus.

                                If the Edo period is out of SCA period, then I understand. I will
                                try to do more research before asking questions so that at least
                                they will be framed with a more appropriate understanding of how I
                                wish to appear on the battlefield, if I indeed pursue a Japanese
                                battlefied persona as I have desired.

                                Respectfully,
                                Aylwin
                              • Otagiri Tatsuzou
                                ... The japanese battlefield is fully armoured. Men of distinction wore armour that was notable by the armour s style, colors, lacing patterns, and/or
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 10, 2004
                                  > ... I simply like the look of a fighter on the battlefield
                                  > who shows no armor but you "understand" it is worn under garb.
                                  > If that isn't a historically accurate that Japanese fought on the
                                  > battlefield without armor, then I need to re-align my focus.
                                  >

                                  The japanese battlefield is fully armoured. Men of distinction wore
                                  armour that was notable by the armour's style, colors, lacing
                                  patterns, and/or 'grotesque' helmet crests. Peasant soldiers would
                                  wear whatever armour they could find. And, by the late 1500s,
                                  standardized "army issue" (munition) armours were made for those in
                                  between.

                                  If I misunderstand you, and you are asking if any Japanese warriors
                                  wore their armour under some garment, then you might want to look at
                                  the warrior monks known as sohei or yamabushi, though they tend to
                                  fight with polearms. Some religious samurai would also wear religious
                                  robes over their armour.

                                  See:
                                  http://www.akataka.co.uk/images/funky_shoes.jpg
                                  http://web.tiscali.it/gandalfilgrigio/mitsu/yamabushi.jpg
                                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukusyoku/busou/21.htm

                                  Rent the movies Ran or Kagemusha, or see the Last Samurai, to get a
                                  basic feel for Japanese battlefields.

                                  Otagiri
                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                  ... There s nothing to apologize for. ... Ah. You should probably watch a couple of films (I recommend Ran, Kagemusha, and Samurai Banners as
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Mar 12, 2004
                                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "esquire122" <watkijm@a...> wrote:
                                    > Hello Everyone,
                                    >
                                    > Effingham writes:
                                    > >Why? I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Think of the comparable
                                    > >European model. "I'm doing Agincourt or a tournament, but I want to
                                    > >look like I'm at a feast instead of in the field."
                                    >
                                    > Perhaps it is my lack of expertise in Japanese history and culture
                                    > that is the cause of confusion. For this, I apologize.

                                    There's nothing to apologize for.

                                    <snip>

                                    > A Katana would look out of place with European battlefield garb
                                    > so I began to investigate the possibility of a Japanese persona and
                                    > clothing so that it would complement the katana and not clash.
                                    > I am afraid, owing to my lack of knowledge of Japanese culture
                                    > and history that I may not speak precisely enough to be
                                    > understood. I simply like the look of a fighter on the battlefield
                                    > who shows no armor but you "understand" it is worn under garb.

                                    Ah. You should probably watch a couple of films (I recommend "Ran,"
                                    "Kagemusha," and "Samurai Banners" as big-budget battle-fests to see
                                    what a Japanese battlefield looks like. As a rule, you don't fight
                                    without armour, unless you're caught up in a street brawl of some sort.


                                    > If the Edo period is out of SCA period, then I understand. I will
                                    > try to do more research before asking questions so that at least
                                    > they will be framed with a more appropriate understanding of how I
                                    > wish to appear on the battlefield, if I indeed pursue a Japanese
                                    > battlefied persona as I have desired.

                                    Pshaw! (I think that's how it's spelled. <G>) Ask away! There are
                                    several ways to find out things, and one of the easier ones is to ask
                                    for direction, info, and help. If you hadn't asked, you wouldn't have
                                    known. <G>

                                    Most of us are rather helpful, though I can be a bit... um... spicy at
                                    times.

                                    Effingham
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