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Re: kamon

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  • S. J. Hootman
    ... Is it an English language reference or a Japanese language reference? Until I can learn Japanese, if it s not an English language reference it s useless to
    Message 1 of 50 , Feb 2, 2004
      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, Solveig <nostrand@a...> wrote:
      > Noble Cousin!
      > Greetings from Solveig!
      > First. A good book on Japanese kamon is:
      > Daibukan vol. 1 by Hashimoto
      > everything through page 209 of this book is period.

      Is it an English language reference or a Japanese language reference?
      Until I can learn Japanese, if it's not an English language reference
      it's useless to me. I'd say it's useless to a good number of people
      on the list.

      > What are you writing about here? I had a rather diffferent picture
      > my mind. As I recall, three triangles in a pyramid with some sort of
      > frob in the middle between the triangles is what was being
      > A pyramid of three triangles is quite nice and dates to the early
      > Kamakura period. It's the frob in the middle that I am objecting to.

      Perhaps you did not notice that I said I agreed with you that the
      frob in the center wasn't period. I proposed a different question
      entirely. Putting one object into the shape of another is something
      I've seen and I didn't know if it was period or not. Since the
      triangle was used as a period charge, my question was "Can fuji be
      made in a triangle shape?"

      > Please don't do that to fuji. If you want three fuji in a pyramid,
      > at least let the fuji be round. There are examples of three roundels
      > arranged one and two. For example, Matsu'ura had three roundels one
      > and two inside of an anulus. Putting a ring around things accounted
      > for no more than 50% of kamon in use ca 1600.

      Which is the answer to the question I asked. There are no examples of
      fuji shaped like pyramids, so forcing a fuji into a pyramid shape is
      not the best recreation. Roundels are found in period armory. Are
      lozenges? I'd suspect so, but I'm not certain.

      > >The really cool designs where one object takes the shape of another
      > >can't be done. Personally, I gave up on the idea of a Kamon because
      > >of that.)
      > Pretty much all pre 1600 kamon are pretty straightforward. So, I'm
      > not sure of what you are looking at.

      Apparently post period Kamon, not that the average person would know
      the difference and I'm still learning. Getting reference books into
      my local library for personal research is something of an arduous
      battle. I can weed out the really obvious ones, but I still wouldn't
      know for certain if a clove in tomoe shape is a period charge or not.

      I proposed the idea of fuji forced into a triangle shape and asked if
      it was period or not because I didn't know. I specifically said I
      didn't know if it was period, but I suspected not. I would appreciate
      a little slack, here. I said that for authenticity, the question
      would have to be answered "Was this charge in a period style?" I
      didn't say "X is period. Do X." I said, I've seen things like X in
      fabric motifs, would similar example Y be acceptable as well.

      I learn by asking questions. I get the impression that questions
      bother some people, along with not being able to read Japanese. I
      won't appologize for that. Until I can learn Japanese, I will
      continue to ask questions, to ask for English language sources, and I
      won't appologize for it. It's not like we tell people interested in
      German History they have to learn German and look down on them if
      they don't know German, but that's the feeling I'm getting here and I
      don't believe it's a good environment for learning.

      > I urge you to pick one of the two and forget about trying to
      combine them.
      > This urge to combine too many things is very common in the Society,
      but it
      > is just not the way that people did things in the middle ages.

      Ah, but you're addressing authenticity, not what's allowable in the
      society. I believe each person must find the level of authenticity
      that is comfortable and acceptable for that individual, whether that
      is acceptable to any other person, or not and as I said, only he can
      answer that question.

      This is not the middle ages. For that matter, the SCA isn't a
      reenactment group. Its an individual study group with a costume party
      aspect. Look at some of the European SCA armory if you need proof.
      I've seen the strawberry ice cream cone shield and the Starship
      Enterprise shield. Sometimes the joy of the game is the anachronism.
      Sometimes the joy is watching someone else's fundoshi get into a

      > Three triangles do not give you diptheria and they are easier to

      Really? I hadn't figured out that triangles are easier to draw than
      fuji! :grins: Seriously, still his choice, not anyone elses on this
      list. I happen to agree here, too. Use three triangles.

      > >Looking at the fuji-in-triangle (compare to fuji-in-tomoe) arranged
      > >with with their vertices together, the questions then become:
      > Thumbing through daibukan I could find no evidence for arranging
      > in a one two pattern or for squishing them into triangular shape.

      Thank you for the answer to the question of "is this something they
      did in Pre-Edo Japan." "No, I did not find examples of it. I cannot
      say it would be good recreation" is a resonable answer. If you had
      noted my response, I said I did not believe so, either, but I did not
      have any evidence to back up that claim. You provided the evidence.
      Thank you.

      > Daibukan does not appear to have kamon which do this prior to 1600.

      Again, thank you for the concise answer to "Was this done in Pre-Edo
      Japan" and is it resonable recreation.

      > >Authenticity Question 2: : Assuming high authenticity for kamon, is
      > >fuji-in-triangle apporprate to any pre-Edo Japanese armory at all?
      > If you mean distorting fuji into a triangular shape, then I would
      say no.

      That is the answer I was looking for. Thank you again.

      > >Unsure. It's possible, but I don't have the data to answer that
      > >question. It seems like the Edo opened up Japan culturally and alot
      > >of new things were tried and passed into "traditional" from that
      > >point on. Answering the dating question on non-geometric object
      > >geometric shape would answer this question.
      > The big revolution in kamon took place during the Meiji period
      > (post 1868) not the Edo period.

      I didn't say the Kamon revolution took place in the Edo. I said a
      great many things changed culturally in the Edo and I didn't know if
      Kamon was one of them. Thank you for the clarification.

      > >Authenticity Question 3: Is an original Kamon a high priority,
      > >with authenticity is? If not then is the triforce itself protected
      > >armory for the SCA due to prestige or someone else in the society
      > >actually registering it?
      > I still have no idea what the "triforce" is. If it is registered by
      > someone in the Society in the colour pattern you desire, then it is
      > taken. If not, then it is up for grabs. The College of Arms no
      > pays attention to comic book or video game characters.

      Please see the following:


      Which is a short url for:

      The item on the left is the "Tri-Force" in the game (three triangles
      stacked 1 and 2). The figure on the right is Link.

      > >Laurel would need documentation for the use of that symbol in
      > >Japanese armory to try to avert the bounce for modernity from
      > >happening.
      > Hashimoto. Daibukan Vol I page 8. Akibashi &al ca 1192 CE.

      I would add, this is not a "no-photo copies" source and thus, anyone
      using it would need to make copies of the pages in question for
      Laurel when using it for documentation.

      This actually provided a wealth of new information for me. Thank you
      very much. I appreciate that you took time to explain things and say
      mor than just "no."

      With permission, Solveig, I would like to compile this information
      into a Kamon FAQ for people, to help avoid the repeated question on
      the topic, since the same questions seem to come up time and again.

      Fujiwara no Kitsume
    • Bob R
      Thanks, I ll see what I can find. Bob R ... ===== Check out Cowboy Bob s Books & Things at: http://asia.geocities.com/gentleman9/index.htm
      Message 50 of 50 , Feb 4, 2004
        Thanks, I'll see what I can find.

        Bob R

        --- Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:
        > Thank you for offering. I will see about scanning in
        > my copy of the
        > title page. This is not the sort of book which has a
        > decorative cover.
        > You need to go by what it says on the spine. It is
        > part of a multi-
        > volume set.

        Check out "Cowboy" Bob's Books & Things at:

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