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[SCA-JML] Re: kamon

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  • Solveig
    Noble Cousin! Greetings from Solveig! First. A good book on Japanese kamon is: Daibukan vol. 1 by Hashimoto everything through page 209 of this book is period.
    Message 1 of 50 , Feb 1, 2004
      Noble Cousin!

      Greetings from Solveig!

      First. A good book on Japanese kamon is:

      Daibukan vol. 1 by Hashimoto

      everything through page 209 of this book is period.

      >I'm no expert, but I've seen fuji in both the tomoe and lozenge
      >shapes, as well as in annulo (looking like a wreath of fuji-flowers
      >without the leaves) as fabric patterns on pre Edo fabrics. Yes, I
      >know, not all fabric patterns were Kamon, but for Society purposes, a
      >fabric pattern can prove that a particular motif was known in period
      >and thus make a particular idea plausible, if not actually
      >documentable as used for the item in question.

      What are you writing about here? I had a rather diffferent picture in
      my mind. As I recall, three triangles in a pyramid with some sort of
      frob in the middle between the triangles is what was being described.
      A pyramid of three triangles is quite nice and dates to the early
      Kamakura period. It's the frob in the middle that I am objecting to.
      As I recall, I wrote saying that Japanese in period did not in general
      marshal charges. I stand by that. Throwing in lots of different charges
      is usually poor recreation in Europe, and it is even more to be avoided
      in Japan. There are a few cases where charges are combined:

      A mountain with a cloud
      A particular sort of bird with bamboo

      These have a unified concept and are not combinations of the sort
      expressed by "Gules a rose argent and on a chief a tyger passant

      No, the cloud and the mountain go together as do the bird and the bamboo.
      They have an icongraphic connection which is not at all the case with
      the tyger and the rose in the Anglo-Norman example.

      The one real case of combining elements is when an ordinal (usually one)
      is combined with some other charge. Here you have something like:

      Three roundels one and two and in base the letter one.

      which was used by a man named Watanabe. Or the following:

      The letter one and in base three roundels one and two

      which was used by a man called Nagai Iga no Kami

      >What about three fuji forced into the triangular shape, the fuji-
      >triangles arranged with with their vertices together.

      Please don't do that to fuji. If you want three fuji in a pyramid,
      at least let the fuji be round. There are examples of three roundels
      arranged one and two. For example, Matsu'ura had three roundels one
      and two inside of an anulus. Putting a ring around things accounted
      for no more than 50% of kamon in use ca 1600.

      >The really cool designs where one object takes the shape of another
      >can't be done. Personally, I gave up on the idea of a Kamon because
      >of that.)

      Pretty much all pre 1600 kamon are pretty straightforward. So, I'm
      not sure of what you are looking at.

      >That stated, I would ask is he interested in strict authenticity or
      >looking for for something with a Japanese inspiration that references
      >his Japanese family name (fuji) and the game he likes (Legend of

      I urge you to pick one of the two and forget about trying to combine them.
      This urge to combine too many things is very common in the Society, but it
      is just not the way that people did things in the middle ages.

      >Only he can answer this question. It's all about degrees. How
      >authentic do you care to be? How important is authenticity on X topic
      >compared to other factors, such as personal aesthetics, society
      >rules, or finances? - Health and safety issues are a gimme:
      >Authenticity comes dead last on those and no appologies should be
      >expected or offered. Read the Authenticity list that's the first
      >thing they say.

      Three triangles do not give you diptheria and they are easier to draw.

      >Looking at the fuji-in-triangle (compare to fuji-in-tomoe) arranged
      >with with their vertices together, the questions then become:

      Thumbing through daibukan I could find no evidence for arranging fuji
      in a one two pattern or for squishing them into triangular shape. You
      are free to do anything you want within the limits of law. However,
      please do not expect me to say that what you are doing is either
      period or particularly Japanese if you take the position that you
      do not care about what the Japanese were actually doing four hundred
      years ago.

      >Unsure, probably not. Triangles probably are. Fuji are, but fuji-in-
      >triangle may not be appropriate. A good question would be "when are
      >the first recorded appearances of non-geometric object A forced into
      >the shape of geometric object B?" Once that question is answered, it
      >answers the question of if the idea is appropriate to the time period
      >he's recreating.

      Daibukan does not appear to have kamon which do this prior to 1600.
      The series is arranged chronologicly. If you can find a copy at a
      local research library, then you can do your own research. The last
      applicable page in the book is Vol 1 page 209. The page number is
      written in kanji.

      >Authenticity Question 2: : Assuming high authenticity for kamon, is
      >fuji-in-triangle apporprate to any pre-Edo Japanese armory at all?

      If you mean distorting fuji into a triangular shape, then I would say no.

      >Unsure. It's possible, but I don't have the data to answer that
      >question. It seems like the Edo opened up Japan culturally and alot
      >of new things were tried and passed into "traditional" from that
      >point on. Answering the dating question on non-geometric object into
      >geometric shape would answer this question.

      The big revolution in kamon took place during the Meiji period
      (post 1868) not the Edo period.

      >Authenticity Question 3: Is an original Kamon a high priority, along
      >with authenticity is? If not then is the triforce itself protected
      >armory for the SCA due to prestige or someone else in the society
      >actually registering it?

      I still have no idea what the "triforce" is. If it is registered by
      someone in the Society in the colour pattern you desire, then it is
      taken. If not, then it is up for grabs. The College of Arms no longer
      pays attention to comic book or video game characters.

      >Laurel would need documentation for the use of that symbol in period
      >Japanese armory to try to avert the bounce for modernity from

      Hashimoto. Daibukan Vol I page 8. Akibashi &al ca 1192 CE.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

      | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
      | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
      | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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    • Bob R
      Thanks, I ll see what I can find. Bob R ... ===== Check out Cowboy Bob s Books & Things at: http://asia.geocities.com/gentleman9/index.htm
      Message 50 of 50 , Feb 4, 2004
        Thanks, I'll see what I can find.

        Bob R

        --- Solveig <nostrand@...> wrote:
        > Thank you for offering. I will see about scanning in
        > my copy of the
        > title page. This is not the sort of book which has a
        > decorative cover.
        > You need to go by what it says on the spine. It is
        > part of a multi-
        > volume set.

        Check out "Cowboy" Bob's Books & Things at:

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