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Looking for Shoelace, Nylon Cord for Kozane/Odoshi

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  • togeriso
    Ohayo, Honoured Members! May The Revered Lady Amaterasu grant her blessings to each of you today. I bow before you and humbly ask for a moment of your time. I
    Message 1 of 20 , Jan 5, 2004
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      Ohayo, Honoured Members!

      May The Revered Lady Amaterasu grant her blessings to each of you today.

      I bow before you and humbly ask for a moment of your time. I also apologize
      in advance should I use the wrong armour term in this discussion.

      I have been looking over various websites to learn how to create and
      assemble a suit of samurai armour. The first piece I am working on will be a
      primer of sorts into the art of making such armour, and I am looking at making
      the sode and do--and other related pieces--in the kozane (scale) style. This
      will therefore not be SCA capable at first.

      I have the materials, cutters, dyes, dye process downloads, punches and
      rivets. What I do not possess, and do not know where to start looking, are the
      lacings required for the scales.

      Several of the links provided by sites are no longer active, and google
      searches are becoming an endless and frustrating loop.

      If anyone has information on lacing materials and pricings, please respond at
      your convenience. If it helps in your information sources, I am writing from
      central Canada and am looking for lacings/cords/whatever you recommend in
      1/8-1/4" thicknesses.

      I thank you for your time and look forward to hearing from you.

      Sincerely,
      Paul Thorgrimson
    • todd_last
      I actually just went through the same process earlier this year. What I did was contact the fine folks at St. Louis Braid Co. (www.stlouisbraid.com - site s
      Message 2 of 20 , Jan 5, 2004
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        I actually just went through the same process earlier this year. What
        I did was contact the fine folks at St. Louis Braid Co.
        (www.stlouisbraid.com - site's kinda ugly, but gets the point across)
        They only sell by the gross yard, but I got 2 gross yards (288 yards)
        for $122 + shipping.

        The style I purchased was:

        STYLE #10074 is 3/4" Wide, polyester, tubular braid

        Now this comes in a spool, which I would measure, cut, trim the ends
        and wrap in duct tape to make an aglet for ease of lacing. I got this
        lace in my main color (light blue). I purchased the other random
        colors (red, black, yellow) from my local shoe store. It's a fat
        "retro" lace whose brand name escapes me.

        If you'd like to see it, I have some pictures of my work in progress,
        but I warn you, I'm no professional and this is my first time working
        with plastic (I know, I know. But I have limited time in the metal
        shop). I just wanted to make something functional and relatively
        pretty. I'll probably try my hand at something a bit more period
        sometime in the future (my wife wants to get on the field for combat
        archery and siege weapons). If you would like to see some pictures,
        they're online at http://photos.yahoo.com/todd_last . There are a few
        folders - "Body", "Somen", "Kabuto" and "Weapons". These are all my
        attempts in progress.

        Hope this helps.

        Thank you all on the list for your insights and teachings online.
        They have been greatly helpful.

        ---Todd (no Japanese name just yet)
      • kim nakamori
        Konban wa Todd-san, Very nice menpo there-heh i like the eyebrows. Your yoroi is comming along nicely too. (I have been debating whether or not to go japanese
        Message 3 of 20 , Jan 5, 2004
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          Konban wa Todd-san,
          Very nice menpo there-heh i like the eyebrows.
          Your yoroi is comming along nicely too. (I have been
          debating whether or not to go japanese if I get back
          into fighting, I have a kydex breastplate and sallet
          now in storage-but it'll take alot of work to change
          it to japanese-we'll see tho, you lads make a very
          convincing argument)
          The lads here in hawaii use the same type of
          nylon lacing-but I think they get theirs from Home
          Depot, or another hardware store called Kilgo's which
          sells marine supplies. One lad also used shoelaces and
          did his yoroi in purple green and white-we nicknamed
          him "The Nasubi Kozo" or eggplant kid-hehe)
          If there is a source for nylon lace in Central
          canada, let me know- next month I am moving to
          saskatoon.(or any japanese markets in or near
          Saskechewan(must learn how to spell that) On that
          note-anyone in or near that province that I can
          contact who enjoys Japanese personae? (besides HL
          Emeric, and HE Chikukugawa)Normally I am known as Lady
          Melusine of Windhill Wood, but I also have a japanese
          persona named Tamayori.(I tend to gravitate to the
          Momoyama period)

          Domo,
          Tama-chan
          --- todd_last <tlast@...> wrote:
          > I actually just went through the same process
          > earlier this year. What
          > I did was contact the fine folks at St. Louis Braid
          > Co.
          > (www.stlouisbraid.com - site's kinda ugly, but gets
          > the point across)
          > They only sell by the gross yard, but I got 2 gross
          > yards (288 yards)
          > for $122 + shipping.
          >
          > The style I purchased was:
          >
          > STYLE #10074 is 3/4" Wide, polyester, tubular braid
          >
          > Now this comes in a spool, which I would measure,
          > cut, trim the ends
          > and wrap in duct tape to make an aglet for ease of
          > lacing. I got this
          > lace in my main color (light blue). I purchased the
          > other random
          > colors (red, black, yellow) from my local shoe
          > store. It's a fat
          > "retro" lace whose brand name escapes me.
          >
          > If you'd like to see it, I have some pictures of my
          > work in progress,
          > but I warn you, I'm no professional and this is my
          > first time working
          > with plastic (I know, I know. But I have limited
          > time in the metal
          > shop). I just wanted to make something functional
          > and relatively
          > pretty. I'll probably try my hand at something a
          > bit more period
          > sometime in the future (my wife wants to get on the
          > field for combat
          > archery and siege weapons). If you would like to
          > see some pictures,
          > they're online at http://photos.yahoo.com/todd_last
          > . There are a few
          > folders - "Body", "Somen", "Kabuto" and "Weapons".
          > These are all my
          > attempts in progress.
          >
          > Hope this helps.
          >
          > Thank you all on the list for your insights and
          > teachings online.
          > They have been greatly helpful.
          >
          > ---Todd (no Japanese name just yet)
          >
          >


          __________________________________
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          Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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        • mattfmcti
          Todd, I took a look at your pictures, which are nice btw. Are you using the Yama Kaminari pattern? How well is it working for you? Since I m anxious to get
          Message 4 of 20 , Jan 6, 2004
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            Todd,

            I took a look at your pictures, which are nice btw. Are you using the
            Yama Kaminari pattern? How well is it working for you? Since I'm
            anxious to get started and given the time and expense required for a
            period steel-based kit, I'm leaning towards building plastic armor
            for myself (Please forgive me, Hiraizumi-dono!). In particular, how
            did you get the right curve in the shoulder straps? Brute force, or
            was there some application of heat?

            Domo Arigato,
            Fujiwara Takaharu
          • Donald Luby
            ... When I make my kits out of plastic, for things that need to be curved, I put it in the oven (~15 minute at ~250F), and bend them while they re soft; they
            Message 5 of 20 , Jan 6, 2004
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              On Jan 6, 2004, at 12:11 PM, mattfmcti wrote:

              > Todd,
              >
              > I took a look at your pictures, which are nice btw. Are you using the
              > Yama Kaminari pattern? How well is it working for you? Since I'm
              > anxious to get started and given the time and expense required for a
              > period steel-based kit, I'm leaning towards building plastic armor
              > for myself (Please forgive me, Hiraizumi-dono!). In particular, how
              > did you get the right curve in the shoulder straps? Brute force, or
              > was there some application of heat?

              When I make my kits out of plastic, for things that need to be curved,
              I put it in the oven (~15 minute at ~250F), and bend them while they're
              soft; they cool off and keep form in pretty quick order.

              > Domo Arigato,
              > Fujiwara Takaharu


              Sir Koredono


              **********

              Donald J. Luby Magariki Katsuichi no
              Koredono, KSCA
              djl@... Yama
              Kaminari Ryu
              Pittsburgh, PA Debatable Lands,
              AEthelmearc
            • todd_last
              ... Arigatou gozaimasu! I know many of them are blurry, but that s my camera versus my friend s camera (the clear shots are his). Hopefully I ll obtain a
              Message 6 of 20 , Jan 6, 2004
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                > I took a look at your pictures, which are nice btw.

                Arigatou gozaimasu! I know many of them are blurry, but that's my
                camera versus my friend's camera (the clear shots are his). Hopefully
                I'll obtain a slightly better one this year.

                > Are you using the Yama Kaminari pattern?

                Yes, that's what I started with for the body. I used the information
                on Effingham-dono's website for the sode, though.

                > How well is it working for you?

                Quite well, actually. It does go together rather quickly, especially
                if you take the time to make a pattern from cardboard first. I used a
                refrigerator box to make my pattern from, taped it together, checked
                for fit and adjusted a bit.

                > In particular, how
                > did you get the right curve in the shoulder straps? Brute force, or
                > was there some application of heat?

                I used a heat gun that I picked up at Home Depot for about $70
                (specifically the Wagner Heavy Duty, Internet/Catalog # 131804
                Store SKU# 809101), but you could probably rent one. You'll want to
                get yourself a good respirator, as well, since the plastic will give
                off some noxious fumes when working it. I try to find things that
                will make the approximate shape that I'm going for, heat the plastic,
                then bend it over that shape. For instance, I have a short (14 to 16
                inches long, 6-8 inch diameter) concrete pillar that I use to curve
                with. I can either curve the piece to the shape of the pillar or sort
                of roll the pillar underneath the piece to shape it. I try to heat it
                just to the point where I can muscle (or clamp) it into shape. That
                way I only have to hold it until it cools a little for it to maintain
                its new form. Otherwise it can bend too far, deform, etc. Other than
                that, basic woodworking tools will cut and shape it quite nicely.

                Hope this helps.

                ---Todd
              • mattfmcti
                ... information ... Todd and Sir Koredono, Thank you both for your help. Todd, after looking closer at your sode, I noticed a metal(?) kanmuri ita. Is that
                Message 7 of 20 , Jan 6, 2004
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                  > Yes, that's what I started with for the body. I used the
                  information
                  > on Effingham-dono's website for the sode, though.
                  >

                  Todd and Sir Koredono,

                  Thank you both for your help. Todd, after looking closer at your
                  sode, I noticed a metal(?) kanmuri ita. Is that metal cut and shaped
                  in the traditional manner, or is it well worked plastic? Also, is
                  that a fukurin I see? Again, nice work!

                  Fujiwara Takaharu
                • todd_last
                  ... Again, arigatou gozaimazu! It is actually a plastic kanmuri ita. I used a series of clamps and wood blocks to get the bend in it, first doing the top one
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jan 6, 2004
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                    > Todd, after looking closer at your
                    > sode, I noticed a metal(?) kanmuri ita. Is that metal cut and shaped
                    > in the traditional manner, or is it well worked plastic? Also, is
                    > that a fukurin I see? Again, nice work!

                    Again, arigatou gozaimazu! It is actually a plastic kanmuri ita. I
                    used a series of clamps and wood blocks to get the bend in it, first
                    doing the top one and letting it cool, then clamping it and doing the
                    second bend. The fukurin is actually standard aquarium tubing split
                    down the center and painted gold. I'm not sure how well the tubing
                    will stand up to the abuse of a good fight, but I guess I'll find out.
                    I figured at $.97 for 8 feet of tubing, I could afford to give it a try.

                    ---Todd
                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                    ... I recognize the armour pattern. You ve visited the Kaminari site, no? In general, it looks pretty good. I have two questions, though... 1) why the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jan 9, 2004
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                      todd_last wrote:


                      > If you'd like to see it, I have some pictures of my work in progress,
                      > but I warn you, I'm no professional and this is my first time working
                      > with plastic (I know, I know. But I have limited time in the metal
                      > shop). I just wanted to make something functional and relatively
                      > pretty. I'll probably try my hand at something a bit more period
                      > sometime in the future (my wife wants to get on the field for combat
                      > archery and siege weapons). If you would like to see some pictures,
                      > they're online at http://photos.yahoo.com/todd_last . There are a few
                      > folders - "Body", "Somen", "Kabuto" and "Weapons". These are all my
                      > attempts in progress.

                      I recognize the armour pattern. You've visited the Kaminari site, no? <G>

                      In general, it looks pretty good. I have two questions, though...

                      1) why the indentation on the lacing on the bottom panels of the kusazuri? It
                      looks... odd.

                      2) why the long spacing on the running lacing on the bottom lames of the sode
                      and kusazuri? These should be small dots of lacing, not long strips.

                      Other than that, it looks damned spiff. Good job!

                      Effingham
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... Hey, don t apologize. There s a *reason* I wrote that TI article on plastic Japanese armour. Effingham
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jan 9, 2004
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                        mattfmcti wrote:

                        > Todd,
                        >
                        > I took a look at your pictures, which are nice btw. Are you using the
                        > Yama Kaminari pattern? How well is it working for you? Since I'm
                        > anxious to get started and given the time and expense required for a
                        > period steel-based kit, I'm leaning towards building plastic armor
                        > for myself (Please forgive me, Hiraizumi-dono!).

                        Hey, don't apologize. There's a *reason* I wrote that TI article on plastic
                        Japanese armour. <G>

                        Effingham
                      • Solveig
                        Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! There are good reasons for using plastic to make Japanese armour. One is that if you make Japanese armour totally
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jan 10, 2004
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                          Noble Cousins!

                          Greetings from Solveig! There are good reasons for using plastic to
                          make Japanese armour. One is that if you make Japanese armour totally
                          authentic, it will look rather a lot like plastic armour. Basically,
                          plack or red plastic is about the best approximation you are going to
                          get without actually going out and lacquering iron armour. if you do
                          not believe me, then please go look at a set of Japanese armour in a
                          museum. As I recall, you can do this both in Boston and in Washington, D.C.
                          --

                          Your Humble Servant
                          Solveig Throndardottir
                          Amateur Scholar

                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS |
                          | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                          | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                          | Note. Many popular "free" email services are automatically routed to |
                          | the trash by my email filters. |
                          +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
                        • togeriso
                          Greetings!!! Ohayo, Noble Samurai First off, my thanks to those who provided information on obtaining lacing for mr armour project. I ve emailed St. Louis
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jan 14, 2004
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                            Greetings!!!

                            Ohayo, Noble Samurai

                            First off, my thanks to those who provided information on obtaining lacing for
                            mr armour project. I've emailed St. Louis Braids and will probably go with
                            them should there be no problems shipping to Canada.

                            I have another question though, this one on the lacing process itself. This
                            posting will be a wee bit long but I hope that it will all make sense in the end.

                            Now, I am using kozane in the hon kozane style. When I start putting these
                            pieces together, as I understand it I must first lace the bottom four rows to
                            make shitagarami (apologies if I am saying this wrong).

                            Each key scale hon kozane has two columns with four rows of holes for
                            shitagarami. (For this message I am ignoring the other punched holes being
                            used for odoshi.) When they overlap they will only have one column of four
                            visible. From Edward of Effingham's site, I also see that I need a left hon
                            kozane, which only has one column of punched holes. Finally there is a right
                            hon kozane, also one column of four holes.

                            So in this example (with a really, really small armour), we would have: left hon
                            kozane, 3 key scale hon kozane, right hon kozane. I believe that this makes,
                            with overlap, four columns and four rows of holes. To grid them out, they
                            would look like:

                            C1R1 C2R1 C3R1 C4R1
                            C1R2 C2R2 C3R2 C4R2
                            C1R3 C2R3 C3R3 C4R3
                            C1R4 C2R4 C3R4 C4R4

                            Now, from the two sites I have seen: Edward of Effingham's Sengoku/Katchu
                            site and Wakagashira, it appears that one length of lacing is used to do all
                            four rows: a bottom grouping of two rows and an upper grouping of two rows.

                            Looking at the Sengoku site, Chapter 4: Kozane, 'Detail of shitagarami', the
                            bottom grouping appears from the front to be vertical (C2R3 down to C2R4,
                            up diagonally from behind to C3R3...), the upper grouping appears from the
                            front to go in a diagonal stitching(C2R2 to C3R1, down from behind to
                            C3R2...). That I understand and I see how that will work for the middle
                            sections of the kozane.

                            What I am curious about are the end pieces, and how the laces are moved up
                            to the next grouping of two rows. Are there going to be open holes at the
                            bottom of the kozane? Do I start at C1R4 or R3?

                            Any information on this would be VERY greatly appreciated. I've been
                            working out patterns for a week now and something is just plain eluding me.

                            Many, many thanks in advance.

                            See ya!!!
                            Paul Thorgrimson
                          • otagiri_tatsuzo
                            Ohayo: Hopefully the katchushi himself will chime in with authority, but here are some thoughts... ... these ... four rows to ... You will use decorative
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jan 14, 2004
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                              Ohayo:

                              Hopefully the katchushi himself will chime in with authority, but here
                              are some thoughts...

                              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "togeriso" <togeriso@y...> wrote:
                              > Now, I am using kozane in the hon kozane style. When I start putting
                              these
                              > pieces together, as I understand it I must first lace the bottom
                              four rows to
                              > make shitagarami (apologies if I am saying this wrong).
                              >
                              You will use decorative lacing for the bottom 4 rows only on lames
                              that are visible. Usually, you will use a functional lace such as a
                              leather or synthetic lacing/thread for the nonvisible lames. (Hmmm,
                              maybe the decorative lace is over the functional lace on the visible
                              lame...?)


                              > site and Wakagashira, it appears that one length of lacing is used
                              to do all
                              > four rows: a bottom grouping of two rows and an upper grouping of
                              two rows.

                              Not necessarily. Smaller lengths of lace are used to prevent excessive
                              abraision and wear as the lacing occurs. New lengths are started
                              wherever the current one ends.


                              > What I am curious about are the end pieces, and how the laces are
                              moved up
                              > to the next grouping of two rows. Are there going to be open holes
                              at the
                              > bottom of the kozane? Do I start at C1R4 or R3?
                              >

                              I think I have a lacing example showing the inside of the lame in an
                              armour book at home and will post a followup tonight.

                              --otagiri
                            • otagiri_tatsuzo
                              ... moved up ... at the ... I found two diagrams. Ian Bottomly, Arms and Armour of the Samurai, p 30 AJ Bryant, The Samurai, p 46 Unfortunately, my scanner is
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jan 14, 2004
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                                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "togeriso" <togeriso@y...> wrote:


                                > What I am curious about are the end pieces, and how the laces are
                                moved up
                                > to the next grouping of two rows. Are there going to be open holes
                                at the
                                > bottom of the kozane? Do I start at C1R4 or R3?
                                >

                                I found two diagrams.

                                Ian Bottomly, Arms and Armour of the Samurai, p 30
                                AJ Bryant, The Samurai, p 46

                                Unfortunately, my scanner is not set up so I can't send you the
                                diagrams. However, you can often find The Samurai in large
                                wargaming/hobby stores. You might even want to buy a copy.

                                However, the actual lace ends are not illustrated in either diagram.
                                In both refs, the laces are run horizontally (a lace for row 1 and 2,
                                a lace for rows 3 and 4). The thin lace (shiratagami) used in the
                                non-visible lames do not follow the pattern illustrated here:

                                The decorative lace on the visible on the bottom of the last plate
                                (hishinui) is illustrated here:
                                http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/GRAPHICS/illos/odoshi/odoshiparts.jpg

                                The thin lace (shiratagami) used in the non-visible lames do not
                                follow the pattern illustrated here:
                                http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/GRAPHICS/illos/kozane/shitagarami.jpg

                                Although I have no references for the practice, I usually start my
                                running lace in column 2 or 3 so that the knots are not right on the
                                edge. Using + for visible and - for hidden and your row/column
                                terminology, I might lace a visible lame thus:

                                (knot)C3R2+C2R1-C1R2+C1R1-C2R2+C3R1-C4R2+C4R1(knot)
                                (knot)C3R3+C4R4-C4R3+C3R4-C2R3+C1R4-C1R3+C2R4(knot)


                                Outside view
                                |X|
                                XX

                                Inside view
                                XX
                                |X|

                                I hope this helps
                                --otagiri
                              • Anthony J. Bryant
                                ... Ten for ten. You ve got it. ... Ummm... okay. This makes sense. ... For the record, the lacing pattern on Wakagashira is... um...
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jan 16, 2004
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                                  togeriso wrote:

                                  > Now, I am using kozane in the hon kozane style. When I start putting these
                                  > pieces together, as I understand it I must first lace the bottom four rows to
                                  > make shitagarami (apologies if I am saying this wrong).

                                  Ten for ten. You've got it.

                                  > Each key scale hon kozane has two columns with four rows of holes for
                                  > shitagarami. (For this message I am ignoring the other punched holes being
                                  > used for odoshi.) When they overlap they will only have one column of four
                                  > visible. From Edward of Effingham's site, I also see that I need a left hon
                                  > kozane, which only has one column of punched holes. Finally there is a right
                                  > hon kozane, also one column of four holes.
                                  >
                                  > So in this example (with a really, really small armour), we would have: left hon
                                  > kozane, 3 key scale hon kozane, right hon kozane. I believe that this makes,
                                  > with overlap, four columns and four rows of holes. To grid them out, they
                                  > would look like:
                                  >
                                  > C1R1 C2R1 C3R1 C4R1
                                  > C1R2 C2R2 C3R2 C4R2
                                  > C1R3 C2R3 C3R3 C4R3
                                  > C1R4 C2R4 C3R4 C4R4

                                  Ummm... okay. <popping Tylenol> This makes sense. <G>

                                  > Now, from the two sites I have seen: Edward of Effingham's Sengoku/Katchu
                                  > site and Wakagashira, it appears that one length of lacing is used to do all
                                  > four rows: a bottom grouping of two rows and an upper grouping of two rows.

                                  For the record, the lacing pattern on Wakagashira is... um... well, not right. I
                                  have no idea where he got it from, but it resembles nothing on this Earth.

                                  > Looking at the Sengoku site, Chapter 4: Kozane, 'Detail of shitagarami', the
                                  > bottom grouping appears from the front to be vertical (C2R3 down to C2R4,
                                  > up diagonally from behind to C3R3...), the upper grouping appears from the
                                  > front to go in a diagonal stitching(C2R2 to C3R1, down from behind to
                                  > C3R2...). That I understand and I see how that will work for the middle
                                  > sections of the kozane.
                                  >
                                  > What I am curious about are the end pieces, and how the laces are moved up
                                  > to the next grouping of two rows. Are there going to be open holes at the
                                  > bottom of the kozane? Do I start at C1R4 or R3?

                                  There are *no* open holes. The shitagarami goes through ALL of them.

                                  First of all, forget the bit about ROWS. You are putting together one separate
                                  "board" at a time. Each board is identical. In other words, forget this:

                                  C1R1 C2R1 C3R1 C4R1
                                  C1R2 C2R2 C3R2 C4R2
                                  C1R3 C2R3 C3R3 C4R3
                                  C1R4 C2R4 C3R4 C4R4

                                  What you have is this:

                                  C1R1 C2R1 C3R1 C4R1

                                  And that's all that matters. Every row will be the same.


                                  > Any information on this would be VERY greatly appreciated. I've been
                                  > working out patterns for a week now and something is just plain eluding me.

                                  I don't see where you're having a problem. (It's probably staring me in the
                                  face, but I can't see it. Wouldn't be the first time. <G>)

                                  Where are you? Perhaps we could meet somewhere.

                                  I'm planning on teaching a kozane class at Pennsic since we're going to have all
                                  those wonderful Noble Plastic kozane available...

                                  Effingham
                                • Anthony J. Bryant
                                  ... In the really old stuff, yes. In the more modern, often the lacing of the bottom-most plate was at once decorative and structural. Effingham
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jan 16, 2004
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                                    otagiri_tatsuzo wrote:


                                    > You will use decorative lacing for the bottom 4 rows only on lames
                                    > that are visible. Usually, you will use a functional lace such as a
                                    > leather or synthetic lacing/thread for the nonvisible lames. (Hmmm,
                                    > maybe the decorative lace is over the functional lace on the visible
                                    > lame...?)

                                    In the really old stuff, yes. In the more modern, often the lacing of the
                                    bottom-most plate was at once decorative and structural.


                                    Effingham
                                  • Anthony J. Bryant
                                    ... Bingo.
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jan 16, 2004
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                                      otagiri_tatsuzo wrote:

                                      > Outside view
                                      > |X|
                                      > XX
                                      >
                                      > Inside view
                                      > XX
                                      > |X|

                                      Bingo.
                                    • men_yoroi
                                      I am stuck on a similar area. I am planning on making a proper o-yoroi armour. I am working from Effinhams website but an unsure of kebiki lacing in the dofor
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 11, 2005
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                                        I am stuck on a similar area.
                                        I am planning on making a proper o-yoroi armour. I am working from
                                        Effinhams website but an unsure of kebiki lacing in the dofor hon-
                                        kozane. Whereas there is sinew or similar used in suguke lacing to
                                        keep the do solid, I dont know how to do this with kebiki as the
                                        bottom 4 rows are used for the shitagarami.
                                        Any help would be extremely useful!
                                        Thanks
                                      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                        ... Note that, contrary to common misconception, laced Japanese armour — at least in modern styles — does *not* move, and the lames are not flexible. The
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Dec 11, 2005
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                                          On 12/11/05, men_yoroi <men_yoroi@...> wrote:

                                          > I am stuck on a similar area.
                                          > I am planning on making a proper o-yoroi armour. I am working from
                                          > Effinhams website but an unsure of kebiki lacing in the dofor hon-
                                          > kozane. Whereas there is sinew or similar used in suguke lacing to
                                          > keep the do solid, I dont know how to do this with kebiki as the
                                          > bottom 4 rows are used for the shitagarami.
                                          > Any help would be extremely useful!
                                          > Thanks


                                          "Note that, contrary to common misconception, laced Japanese armour � at
                                          least in modern styles � does *not* move, and the lames are not flexible.
                                          The armour is held rigid by way of special pieces of lacing called "*
                                          tomegawa*" (lit. "stopping leathers"). If the *d�* you are making is laced,
                                          whether only for one lame or in entirety, you must open special holes in
                                          your plates in addition to those for the *odoshi* itself for these *
                                          tomegawa.* *Tomegawa* are short lengths of fine cord (I recommend artificial
                                          sinew) that pass through these holes and the upper-most row of lacing holes.
                                          This is what makes laced armours rigid. For *sugake odoshi,* there is one
                                          set of holes per row of lacing; for *kebiki,* it is one set of holes every
                                          3" or so." - A. J. Bryant, "Nihon Katchu Seisakuben -- An Online Japanese
                                          Armour Manual: Making the Do",
                                          http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.ch07.html

                                          So, even though you are using those holes for the shitagarami, you are also
                                          going to use it for the tomegawa as well, just as you would have both the
                                          sugake-odoshi and the tomegawa through the same holes. Does that make
                                          sense?


                                          -Joshua B.


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                          ... Okay, I just talked to Hiraizumi-dono and had some clarifications made: O-yoroi don t use the tomegawa at all. If they aren t held up by the leather,
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Dec 11, 2005
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                                            On 12/11/05, Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.) <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                                            > On 12/11/05, men_yoroi <men_yoroi@...> wrote:
                                            > > I am stuck on a similar area.
                                            > > I am planning on making a proper o-yoroi armour. I am working from
                                            > > Effinhams website but an unsure of kebiki lacing in the dofor hon-
                                            > > kozane. Whereas there is sinew or similar used in suguke lacing to
                                            > > keep the do solid, I dont know how to do this with kebiki as the
                                            > > bottom 4 rows are used for the shitagarami.
                                            > > Any help would be extremely useful!
                                            > > Thanks
                                            >
                                            > "Note that, contrary to common misconception, laced Japanese armour — at
                                            > least in modern styles — does not move, and the lames are not flexible. The
                                            > armour is held rigid by way of special pieces of lacing called " tomegawa"
                                            > (lit. "stopping leathers"). If the dô you are making is laced, whether only
                                            > for one lame or in entirety, you must open special holes in your plates in
                                            > addition to those for the odoshi itself for these tomegawa. Tomegawa are
                                            > short lengths of fine cord (I recommend artificial sinew) that pass through
                                            > these holes and the upper-most row of lacing holes. This is what makes laced
                                            > armours rigid. For sugake odoshi, there is one set of holes per row of
                                            > lacing; for kebiki, it is one set of holes every 3" or so." - A. J. Bryant,
                                            > "Nihon Katchu Seisakuben -- An Online Japanese Armour Manual: Making the
                                            > Do", http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.ch07.html
                                            >
                                            > So, even though you are using those holes for the shitagarami, you are also
                                            > going to use it for the tomegawa as well, just as you would have both the
                                            > sugake-odoshi and the tomegawa through the same holes. Does that make
                                            > sense?

                                            Okay, I just talked to Hiraizumi-dono and had some clarifications
                                            made: O-yoroi don't use the tomegawa at all. If they aren't held up
                                            by the leather, o-yoroi would basically collapse. The lames are
                                            solid, but they aren't apparently held rigid in to each other.

                                            -Ii
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