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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Bibliography, clothing, and persona

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  • Barbara Nostrand
    Noble Cousins! I m afraid that I can not resist as this discussion appears to be just too much fun. ... I agree. There does not appear to be any period
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 7, 2000
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      Noble Cousins!

      I'm afraid that I can not resist as this discussion appears to be just
      too much fun.

      >If you are thinking of making modern style brocade obi to signify
      >your Master or Knight by colour or your squirehood by the same, I
      >would discourage you from doing so. The Japanese system of ranks as
      >signified by belt colour is a modern thing and I would not like to
      >see it encouraged among Japanese personae in our Society.

      I agree. There does not appear to be any period precident for belt
      ranks. There is lots of period precident for rank specific colour
      usage especially in the imperial court and in various Buddhist
      monasteries. For example, high ranking buddhist monks wear very
      large kessa in colours such as purple and green which indicate
      their lofty rank.

      The ancient imperial court established a system of coloured robes
      and distinctive caps. If you look in a variety of references, you
      will discover that a particular shade of brown might be the province
      of the kampaku and another colour might be the province of the
      prime minister. These colours might be best displayed as over robes.
      Low ranking ministers would generally wear black over robes.

      >Matter of
      >fact, recently someone asked Hiraizumi-dono to justify the wearing of
      >white brocade sashes a la Shogun and he said that he could not.
      >There are better alternatives...

      White sashes?? I have mercifully forgotten much of Clavel's stuff.

      >I am apprenticed and proteged to my Master and I wear a kumihimo
      >braid of yellow, green, blue and white. Yellow for my protegehood,
      >green for my apprenticeship, and blue and white for my Master's
      >colours. This would be a much better decision than a brocade obi.

      Properly used kumihimo are a great idea especially when applied
      as ties to formal robes or hats. Remember though that hats themselves
      have specific import. Now for some real (at least late period) Japanese
      feudal clothing use. The master should present at the time of vassalage
      and annually at new year clothing or at least the cloth for that clothing.
      This cloth should ideally express both the rank of the vassal and the
      identity of the lord. A great honour would be to allow your vassal to
      wear cloth with a brocade pattern of the master's kamon. In fact, one
      of the final certificates granted by Sen Hounsai to Urasenke students
      is permission to bear the family kamon. (Granted that Urasenke is
      post period, but it does express the idea and this business about
      clothing vassals does go back.)

      >Remember that the five-crest or three-crest mon design on kimono is
      >relatively recent. But wearing fabric with a mon printed all over it
      >dates to the Kamakura period (12th century).

      Older patterns tended to quite large and covered the entire expanse
      of cloth. Modern kamon are actually applied after the cloth is woven
      and has been delivered to the kimono maker.

      >I try to avoid Chinese designs because they are so different from
      >Japanese ones. But sometimes we have no choice. Recently, I found
      >beautiful silk brocade with gold Chinese luck roundels all over it.
      >It is not a Japanese design, but the Japanese used a similar design
      >with gold mon. Unfortunately, they didn't have enough yardage for my
      >needs...

      Japanese were not necessarily adverse to wearing Chinese cloth.
      you might easily wear Chinese cloth for under garments of various
      sort or use them for linings or as the base for some overgarment.
      The problem with the Chinese luck roundels is that they simply
      do not express corporate identity the way that a proper Japanese
      kamon does. Further, there were various anti-Chinese periods
      during Japanese history when Chinese panterns would simply not
      be very popular.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

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    • markejag@aol.com
      In a message dated 6/7/00 3:22:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nostrand@bradley.edu writes: Short
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 8, 2000
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        In a message dated 6/7/00 3:22:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
        nostrand@... writes:

        << Avoiding metallic threads would be a start, I assume. >>
        Short interjection and additions to previous conversation.....

        Look carefully at the illuminations, some of them are plain silk, of various
        thickness and weaves and have the gold couched on the fabric with the
        'brocade' patterns embroidered all over.
        I am sure Aoi and Hiraizumi have reliable sources of pictures to look at. I
        have noticed that the brocade patterns Aoi spoke of (
        www.yusoku.com/koaoi.html - the kikko or tortoise shell pattern) can also be
        traced to the Heian period as an example of complete covering, overall
        embroidered.

        Fumio
      • Kass McGann
        ... of various ... the ... look at. I ... can also be ... overall ... Well, it s not embroidered but rather the metalic threads were brocaded into the
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 8, 2000
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          > Look carefully at the illuminations, some of them are plain silk,
          of various
          > thickness and weaves and have the gold couched on the fabric with
          the
          > 'brocade' patterns embroidered all over.
          > I am sure Aoi and Hiraizumi have reliable sources of pictures to
          look at. I
          > have noticed that the brocade patterns Aoi spoke of (
          > www.yusoku.com/koaoi.html - the kikko or tortoise shell pattern)
          can also be
          > traced to the Heian period as an example of complete covering,
          overall
          > embroidered.
          >
          > Fumio

          Well, it's not "embroidered" but rather the metalic threads were
          brocaded into the fabric when it was woven, but you have the right
          idea. Metallic threads ARE NOT taboo...
          Aoi
        • Marc Choronzey
          Konichiwa All, I Agree, my persona comes and goes between late Heian and Muromachi periods... Is there a concensus on what period is the easier to respect or
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 10, 2000
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            Konichiwa All,

            I Agree, my persona comes and goes between late Heian and Muromachi
            periods...

            Is there a concensus on what period is the easier to respect or is the most
            popular?

            Domo,

            Sayonara.
            ---------------------------------------------------------
            "A man who judges others but not himself judges badly..."

            Hebikage Shimaha
            (Marc Choronzey)
            514-388-1790


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