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Re: Sword stuff, was: Looking for patterns for Edo period Kamishimo

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  • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
    Tomodachi, I am curious... Understanding why you would want to protect an expensive saya, I ask (humbly) if your skills are such that you can change the shape
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 1, 2003
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      Tomodachi,
      I am curious...
      Understanding why you would want to protect an expensive saya,
      I ask (humbly) if your skills are such that you can change the
      shape of the current saya to match the smaller weapon's saya,
      and still get the finish to match that of the origional...
      If they are, then please forgive me for asking...otherwise, You
      may change the shape of the saya, but might not be able o
      reproduce the lacquering...the gloss...and the inish of the
      origional...
      Having made saya myself, remember that you do not know the
      interior profile o f your current saya. You may cut or file into it, and
      find you just opened up a void in the wood...that woulsd mess up
      your day, I think...
      There might be a hollow space where you think there is only
      solid wood...
      As Ii-dono suggested, there are period alternatives that might
      suit your needs...A good cat fur cover, or bear, might be perfect...
      (leapord, tiger, or some pseudo version...), although I do not now
      if these were used in a non-tachi sling...
      Wearing your weapon in a more vertical manner, while more
      comfortable in closed environs, may historically preclude some
      solutions...
      One alternative might be to actually build a less expensive saya
      of a common wood, lacquering the bejeebers (technical term)
      out of it, and using it for average field purposes... for court, you
      might switch to the good one...
      ...and if someone smacks your saya with theirs, ask them if they
      meant it...and cut them down quickly if they did... :-) (kidding...)

      Thoughts...

      Date Saburou Yukiie
      Yama Kaminari Ryu
      http://www.kabutographics.com (under reconstruction...but
      getting better...)
      kabuto@...




      >
      > I'll make a cover whether it's period or not. No sense in risking
      scuffing
      > up my uncheap saya simply because they didn't mind doing it
      back then.
      >
      I'm also thinking about reshaping the tip of the
      > katana's saya to match the rounded tip on the wakizashi. I just
      like how it
      > looks.
      >
    • Bubba
      ... I probably can t match the exact shade and texture, but I could easily refinish the entire saya. ... Yes, but the reshaping required is very minimal,
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 2, 2003
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        Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:
        >
        > Understanding why you would want to protect an expensive saya,
        > I ask (humbly) if your skills are such that you can change the
        > shape of the current saya to match the smaller weapon's saya,
        > and still get the finish to match that of the origional...
        > If they are, then please forgive me for asking...otherwise, You
        > may change the shape of the saya, but might not be able o
        > reproduce the lacquering...the gloss...and the inish of the
        > origional...

        I probably can't match the exact shade and texture, but I could easily
        refinish the entire saya.

        > Having made saya myself, remember that you do not know the
        > interior profile o f your current saya. You may cut or file into it,
        > and find you just opened up a void in the wood...that woulsd mess up
        > your day, I think...
        > There might be a hollow space where you think there is only
        > solid wood...

        Yes, but the reshaping required is very minimal, mostly just breaking the
        edges at the tip. If I did go through it wouldn't take much to fill the area
        and shape it.

        > As Ii-dono suggested, there are period alternatives that might
        > suit your needs...A good cat fur cover, or bear, might be perfect...
        > (leapord, tiger, or some pseudo version...), although I do not now
        > if these were used in a non-tachi sling...

        Fur just isn't my thing, though. I just don't like the look.

        > Wearing your weapon in a more vertical manner, while more
        > comfortable in closed environs, may historically preclude some
        > solutions...

        Yes, but sometimes you just have to break tradition. I've never been accused
        of following the rules all the time ;)

        > One alternative might be to actually build a less expensive saya
        > of a common wood, lacquering the bejeebers (technical term)
        > out of it, and using it for average field purposes... for court, you
        > might switch to the good one...

        I thought of that, too, but will likely hold off on that until I build a
        complete set of alternate furniture. I may do that this winter if I finish a
        few dozen other projects. I need to finish 2 blades, a tanto and an aikuchi,
        make about a nautical mile of jinmaku, finish 4 suits of armor, and take
        care of another son that will be here any day now.

        > ...and if someone smacks your saya with theirs, ask them if they
        > meant it...and cut them down quickly if they did... :-) (kidding...)

        There aren't many people around me wearing katana, so that won't be much of
        an issue, but I'm sure that there will be plenty of people getting into my
        personal space. I suppose I should refrain from slicing anyone to ribbons,
        especially since it's so hard to find a good sword polisher anymore ;)
        --
        Kagemasa
        mysticz28@...
        He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
      • Vince Ferri
        Ohayogozaimasu, Having noted your experience in the message below, I was hoping you could be of assistance. I would like to repair several small nicks in the
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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          Ohayogozaimasu,

          Having noted your experience in the message below, I was hoping you
          could be of assistance.

          I would like to repair several small nicks in the black lacquer finish
          on my saya. Would you be kind enough to explain the proper way to make
          that repair, and where to get the correct type of lacquer.

          Arigatougozaimasu,
          Binsu Jiro

          Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:

          > Tomodachi,
          >
          > Having made saya myself,
        • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
          Binsu-dono, Without seeing the damaged saya, I am hesitant to offer much in the way of anything but general advice on how to repair the nicks. I have made a
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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            Binsu-dono,
            Without seeing the damaged saya, I am hesitant to offer much in
            the way of anything but general advice on how to repair the nicks.

            I have made a few saya, but cannot consider myself a saya-shi
            by any means, so please understand.

            The main question would be if they are nicks in a saya that is
            truely lacquered with real urushi, or some other reproduction.

            If it is a reproduction, you will have an easier time. The area
            closely around the nicks should be sanded carefully in a light,
            circular motion, being careful to avoid making more scratches
            than you need to. Use a fine grade of sandpaper.

            If the nick is deep, a suitable wood putty can be used to fill the
            area, always keeping in mind it is better to use small
            applications and let them dry.

            When filled, sand lightly, with a fine grade of sand paper, then
            with steel wool - the kind that does not have jewelers rouge in it
            (that pink or blue paste stuff).

            You will have to determine the type of paint or lacquer that is best
            suited to your needs. This may take several tries, and some
            minor reworking.
            Regular hobby model paint is highly useful, in gloss and semi-
            gloss, applied with a fine brush. Try to make sure that the dried
            color will closely match the existing lacquer on the saya.

            If it is a larger repair, it might be worth while to think about good
            old rustoleum gloss or semi-gloss in a spray can, and re-paint
            the entire exterior of the saya.

            Let all dry several hours, and polish with a regular piece of white
            letter paper, again in a circular motion. Avoid papers that have a
            clay finish, like those used in coppiers or printers...The paper will
            do a fine job polishing, once the grain of the paper is smoothed
            down.

            Do this two or three times till the finishes start matching up.

            When you are done, it might be suitable to give the entire saya a
            light coat or two of a comercial polyeurathane (if not real urushi,
            that is...) Your call...

            If your saya is real urushi, then you might have a tougher time.
            Real urushi is not only difficult to find outside of Japan, but
            poisonous, and difficult to use. It is also beyond my ability to
            comment on further as far as your repairs go, not having seen
            the damage.

            I hope this helps some. Good luck to you tomodachi...

            Date Saburou Yukiie
            Yama Kaminari Ryu
            Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave...
            http://www.kabutographics.com (under reconstruction)
            kabuto@...


            >
            > I would like to repair several small nicks in the black lacquer
            finish
            > on my saya. Would you be kind enough to explain the proper
            way to make
            > that repair, and where to get the correct type of lacquer.
            >
            > Arigatougozaimasu,
            > Binsu Jiro
            >
          • DP Gregersen
            On the subject, Real urushi can be mail ordered. Altho not cheap and it s toxic as has been noted: http://www.namikawa-ltd.co.jp
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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              On the subject,

              Real urushi can be mail ordered. Altho not cheap and it's toxic as
              has been noted:

              http://www.namikawa-ltd.co.jp

              http://www.japanese-swords.com/

              http:://www.aquastoneinc.com/

              Some people use cashew (Japanese urushi-like synthetic).
              Some people like the result using automobile paint.

              Pretty good step by step of making a saya, if contemplating such a
              project,

              http://www.sayashi.com

              or read the book "Craft of the Japanese Sword"
            • Solveig
              Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! I can tell you where to buy lacquer in the Tokyo area. (It s a very large craft store complex in Kamata.) They may even
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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                Noble Cousins!

                Greetings from Solveig! I can tell you where to buy lacquer in the Tokyo
                area. (It's a very large craft store complex in Kamata.) They may even do
                mail order. I don't know whether U.S. customs will be particularly happy
                about letting it in. As for appearance. I you are familiar with real
                lacquer, then the difference can be quite apparent.
                --

                Your Humble Servant
                Solveig Throndardottir
                Amateur Scholar

                +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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              • Bubba
                ... The few times I ve messed with the real thing (ok, once ;) I m apparently not affected by it much. No more than working with carbon fiber. There are a
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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                  Solveig wrote:
                  >
                  > Greetings from Solveig! I can tell you where to buy lacquer in the
                  > Tokyo area. (It's a very large craft store complex in Kamata.) They
                  > may even do mail order. I don't know whether U.S. customs will be
                  > particularly happy about letting it in. As for appearance. I you are
                  > familiar with real lacquer, then the difference can be quite apparent.

                  The few times I've messed with the real thing (ok, once ;) I'm apparently
                  not affected by it much. No more than working with carbon fiber. There are a
                  whole lot more dangerous things in my garage than lacquer. Methlyene
                  chloride comes to mind ;)

                  That said, I prefer using epoxy based paint instead of lacquer since it's
                  very humid in this part of Ansteorra and epoxy is waterproof. Also easier to
                  match it if you ever have to fix it (not likely).
                  --
                  Kagemasa
                  mysticz28@...
                  He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
                • DP Gregersen
                  I m not a botonist, but the urushi tree is a distant relation of poison oak, and the sickness produces similar symptoms. Just as some people are affected more
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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                    I'm not a botonist, but the urushi tree is a distant relation of
                    poison oak, and the sickness produces similar symptoms.

                    Just as some people are affected more by poison oak than others, it
                    would seem to be the same with urushi. Artisans who work with the
                    stuff regularly do develop a tolerance. I saw a video once of
                    someone smearing it on with fingers with no ill effects.

                    Do be careful, but as long as you don't get it on yourself, you
                    should probably be ok. As far as importing it, it seems to be a
                    gray area. Paint is paint, most likely as far as customs is
                    concerned.



                    > The few times I've messed with the real thing (ok, once ;) I'm
                    apparently
                    > not affected by it much. No more than working with carbon fiber.
                    There are a
                    > whole lot more dangerous things in my garage than lacquer. Methlyene
                    > chloride comes to mind ;)
                    >
                  • Bubba
                    ... From what I understand the two plants have the same poison. If that s the case it won t do anything to me at all. I can roll naked in poison ivy and
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 7, 2003
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                      DP Gregersen wrote:
                      > I'm not a botonist, but the urushi tree is a distant relation of
                      > poison oak, and the sickness produces similar symptoms.

                      From what I understand the two plants have the same poison. If that's the
                      case it won't do anything to me at all. I can roll naked in poison ivy and
                      nothing happens... well, the poison ivy and anyone watching might get upset
                      ;)

                      > Do be careful, but as long as you don't get it on yourself, you
                      > should probably be ok. As far as importing it, it seems to be a
                      > gray area. Paint is paint, most likely as far as customs is
                      > concerned.

                      There are places to get it domestically, but I've been doing a bit of
                      reading and have found that there are better wearing things out there. Epoxy
                      and automotive paint being very high on the list. Not period, but good for
                      things that will actually be worn regularly.
                      --
                      Kagemasa
                      mysticz28@...
                      He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
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