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Re: [SCA-JML] Sword stuff, was: Looking for patterns for Edo period Kamishimo

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  • Ii Saburou
    ... I m not sure of cloth, but I ve seen leather (I m not sure if it was extant or a later addition) and I know that we see fur coverings in the field. I
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 31, 2003
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      On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Bubba wrote:

      > While I'm thinking about it, is there any evidence of some kind of close
      > fitting cloth saya cover? I'm thinking about making something that I can
      > slide on the saya before tying the sageo (I wrap it around the saya 12 times
      > then weave the ends back through it) so it doesn't get banged up.

      I'm not sure of cloth, but I've seen leather (I'm not sure if it was
      extant or a later addition) and I know that we see fur coverings in the
      field. I believe I've also seen same (rayskin) used, but I'm not sure if
      it is a period application--but it seems reasonable. It only seems
      reasonable to protect the saya, especially when it is being used as an
      actual everyday (well, every-war) item.


      -Ii
    • Bubba
      ... I ll make a cover whether it s period or not. No sense in risking scuffing up my uncheap saya simply because they didn t mind doing it back then. I m also
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 1, 2003
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        Ii Saburou wrote:
        >
        > I'm not sure of cloth, but I've seen leather (I'm not sure if it was
        > extant or a later addition) and I know that we see fur coverings in
        > the field. I believe I've also seen same (rayskin) used, but I'm not
        > sure if
        > it is a period application--but it seems reasonable. It only seems
        > reasonable to protect the saya, especially when it is being used as an
        > actual everyday (well, every-war) item.

        I'll make a cover whether it's period or not. No sense in risking scuffing
        up my uncheap saya simply because they didn't mind doing it back then. I'm
        also very seriously considering adding same from the koiguchi (which I plan
        on replacing) to about 6" below the kurigata. Helps keep from slicing your
        hand if you screw up a draw and keeps the saya from moving around in the
        obi. And it looks cool ;) I'm also thinking about reshaping the tip of the
        katana's saya to match the rounded tip on the wakizashi. I just like how it
        looks.

        I need to find a source of decent differentially tempered bare blades. I'm
        much, much better at making the fittings than the blades. Not enough
        patience, I suppose. Hmm... guess I could teach a student of mine how to
        grind blades and set him at it. Yes, I know they should be forged, but I
        haven't finished the forge yet.
        --
        Kagemasa
        mysticz28@...
        He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
      • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
        Tomodachi, I am curious... Understanding why you would want to protect an expensive saya, I ask (humbly) if your skills are such that you can change the shape
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 1, 2003
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          Tomodachi,
          I am curious...
          Understanding why you would want to protect an expensive saya,
          I ask (humbly) if your skills are such that you can change the
          shape of the current saya to match the smaller weapon's saya,
          and still get the finish to match that of the origional...
          If they are, then please forgive me for asking...otherwise, You
          may change the shape of the saya, but might not be able o
          reproduce the lacquering...the gloss...and the inish of the
          origional...
          Having made saya myself, remember that you do not know the
          interior profile o f your current saya. You may cut or file into it, and
          find you just opened up a void in the wood...that woulsd mess up
          your day, I think...
          There might be a hollow space where you think there is only
          solid wood...
          As Ii-dono suggested, there are period alternatives that might
          suit your needs...A good cat fur cover, or bear, might be perfect...
          (leapord, tiger, or some pseudo version...), although I do not now
          if these were used in a non-tachi sling...
          Wearing your weapon in a more vertical manner, while more
          comfortable in closed environs, may historically preclude some
          solutions...
          One alternative might be to actually build a less expensive saya
          of a common wood, lacquering the bejeebers (technical term)
          out of it, and using it for average field purposes... for court, you
          might switch to the good one...
          ...and if someone smacks your saya with theirs, ask them if they
          meant it...and cut them down quickly if they did... :-) (kidding...)

          Thoughts...

          Date Saburou Yukiie
          Yama Kaminari Ryu
          http://www.kabutographics.com (under reconstruction...but
          getting better...)
          kabuto@...




          >
          > I'll make a cover whether it's period or not. No sense in risking
          scuffing
          > up my uncheap saya simply because they didn't mind doing it
          back then.
          >
          I'm also thinking about reshaping the tip of the
          > katana's saya to match the rounded tip on the wakizashi. I just
          like how it
          > looks.
          >
        • Bubba
          ... I probably can t match the exact shade and texture, but I could easily refinish the entire saya. ... Yes, but the reshaping required is very minimal,
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 2, 2003
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            Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:
            >
            > Understanding why you would want to protect an expensive saya,
            > I ask (humbly) if your skills are such that you can change the
            > shape of the current saya to match the smaller weapon's saya,
            > and still get the finish to match that of the origional...
            > If they are, then please forgive me for asking...otherwise, You
            > may change the shape of the saya, but might not be able o
            > reproduce the lacquering...the gloss...and the inish of the
            > origional...

            I probably can't match the exact shade and texture, but I could easily
            refinish the entire saya.

            > Having made saya myself, remember that you do not know the
            > interior profile o f your current saya. You may cut or file into it,
            > and find you just opened up a void in the wood...that woulsd mess up
            > your day, I think...
            > There might be a hollow space where you think there is only
            > solid wood...

            Yes, but the reshaping required is very minimal, mostly just breaking the
            edges at the tip. If I did go through it wouldn't take much to fill the area
            and shape it.

            > As Ii-dono suggested, there are period alternatives that might
            > suit your needs...A good cat fur cover, or bear, might be perfect...
            > (leapord, tiger, or some pseudo version...), although I do not now
            > if these were used in a non-tachi sling...

            Fur just isn't my thing, though. I just don't like the look.

            > Wearing your weapon in a more vertical manner, while more
            > comfortable in closed environs, may historically preclude some
            > solutions...

            Yes, but sometimes you just have to break tradition. I've never been accused
            of following the rules all the time ;)

            > One alternative might be to actually build a less expensive saya
            > of a common wood, lacquering the bejeebers (technical term)
            > out of it, and using it for average field purposes... for court, you
            > might switch to the good one...

            I thought of that, too, but will likely hold off on that until I build a
            complete set of alternate furniture. I may do that this winter if I finish a
            few dozen other projects. I need to finish 2 blades, a tanto and an aikuchi,
            make about a nautical mile of jinmaku, finish 4 suits of armor, and take
            care of another son that will be here any day now.

            > ...and if someone smacks your saya with theirs, ask them if they
            > meant it...and cut them down quickly if they did... :-) (kidding...)

            There aren't many people around me wearing katana, so that won't be much of
            an issue, but I'm sure that there will be plenty of people getting into my
            personal space. I suppose I should refrain from slicing anyone to ribbons,
            especially since it's so hard to find a good sword polisher anymore ;)
            --
            Kagemasa
            mysticz28@...
            He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
          • Vince Ferri
            Ohayogozaimasu, Having noted your experience in the message below, I was hoping you could be of assistance. I would like to repair several small nicks in the
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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              Ohayogozaimasu,

              Having noted your experience in the message below, I was hoping you
              could be of assistance.

              I would like to repair several small nicks in the black lacquer finish
              on my saya. Would you be kind enough to explain the proper way to make
              that repair, and where to get the correct type of lacquer.

              Arigatougozaimasu,
              Binsu Jiro

              Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie wrote:

              > Tomodachi,
              >
              > Having made saya myself,
            • Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou Yukiie
              Binsu-dono, Without seeing the damaged saya, I am hesitant to offer much in the way of anything but general advice on how to repair the nicks. I have made a
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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                Binsu-dono,
                Without seeing the damaged saya, I am hesitant to offer much in
                the way of anything but general advice on how to repair the nicks.

                I have made a few saya, but cannot consider myself a saya-shi
                by any means, so please understand.

                The main question would be if they are nicks in a saya that is
                truely lacquered with real urushi, or some other reproduction.

                If it is a reproduction, you will have an easier time. The area
                closely around the nicks should be sanded carefully in a light,
                circular motion, being careful to avoid making more scratches
                than you need to. Use a fine grade of sandpaper.

                If the nick is deep, a suitable wood putty can be used to fill the
                area, always keeping in mind it is better to use small
                applications and let them dry.

                When filled, sand lightly, with a fine grade of sand paper, then
                with steel wool - the kind that does not have jewelers rouge in it
                (that pink or blue paste stuff).

                You will have to determine the type of paint or lacquer that is best
                suited to your needs. This may take several tries, and some
                minor reworking.
                Regular hobby model paint is highly useful, in gloss and semi-
                gloss, applied with a fine brush. Try to make sure that the dried
                color will closely match the existing lacquer on the saya.

                If it is a larger repair, it might be worth while to think about good
                old rustoleum gloss or semi-gloss in a spray can, and re-paint
                the entire exterior of the saya.

                Let all dry several hours, and polish with a regular piece of white
                letter paper, again in a circular motion. Avoid papers that have a
                clay finish, like those used in coppiers or printers...The paper will
                do a fine job polishing, once the grain of the paper is smoothed
                down.

                Do this two or three times till the finishes start matching up.

                When you are done, it might be suitable to give the entire saya a
                light coat or two of a comercial polyeurathane (if not real urushi,
                that is...) Your call...

                If your saya is real urushi, then you might have a tougher time.
                Real urushi is not only difficult to find outside of Japan, but
                poisonous, and difficult to use. It is also beyond my ability to
                comment on further as far as your repairs go, not having seen
                the damage.

                I hope this helps some. Good luck to you tomodachi...

                Date Saburou Yukiie
                Yama Kaminari Ryu
                Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave...
                http://www.kabutographics.com (under reconstruction)
                kabuto@...


                >
                > I would like to repair several small nicks in the black lacquer
                finish
                > on my saya. Would you be kind enough to explain the proper
                way to make
                > that repair, and where to get the correct type of lacquer.
                >
                > Arigatougozaimasu,
                > Binsu Jiro
                >
              • DP Gregersen
                On the subject, Real urushi can be mail ordered. Altho not cheap and it s toxic as has been noted: http://www.namikawa-ltd.co.jp
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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                  On the subject,

                  Real urushi can be mail ordered. Altho not cheap and it's toxic as
                  has been noted:

                  http://www.namikawa-ltd.co.jp

                  http://www.japanese-swords.com/

                  http:://www.aquastoneinc.com/

                  Some people use cashew (Japanese urushi-like synthetic).
                  Some people like the result using automobile paint.

                  Pretty good step by step of making a saya, if contemplating such a
                  project,

                  http://www.sayashi.com

                  or read the book "Craft of the Japanese Sword"
                • Solveig
                  Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! I can tell you where to buy lacquer in the Tokyo area. (It s a very large craft store complex in Kamata.) They may even
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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                    Noble Cousins!

                    Greetings from Solveig! I can tell you where to buy lacquer in the Tokyo
                    area. (It's a very large craft store complex in Kamata.) They may even do
                    mail order. I don't know whether U.S. customs will be particularly happy
                    about letting it in. As for appearance. I you are familiar with real
                    lacquer, then the difference can be quite apparent.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

                    +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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                    | deMoivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
                    | mailto:nostrand@... | mailto:bnostran@... |
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                  • Bubba
                    ... The few times I ve messed with the real thing (ok, once ;) I m apparently not affected by it much. No more than working with carbon fiber. There are a
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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                      Solveig wrote:
                      >
                      > Greetings from Solveig! I can tell you where to buy lacquer in the
                      > Tokyo area. (It's a very large craft store complex in Kamata.) They
                      > may even do mail order. I don't know whether U.S. customs will be
                      > particularly happy about letting it in. As for appearance. I you are
                      > familiar with real lacquer, then the difference can be quite apparent.

                      The few times I've messed with the real thing (ok, once ;) I'm apparently
                      not affected by it much. No more than working with carbon fiber. There are a
                      whole lot more dangerous things in my garage than lacquer. Methlyene
                      chloride comes to mind ;)

                      That said, I prefer using epoxy based paint instead of lacquer since it's
                      very humid in this part of Ansteorra and epoxy is waterproof. Also easier to
                      match it if you ever have to fix it (not likely).
                      --
                      Kagemasa
                      mysticz28@...
                      He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
                    • DP Gregersen
                      I m not a botonist, but the urushi tree is a distant relation of poison oak, and the sickness produces similar symptoms. Just as some people are affected more
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 3, 2003
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                        I'm not a botonist, but the urushi tree is a distant relation of
                        poison oak, and the sickness produces similar symptoms.

                        Just as some people are affected more by poison oak than others, it
                        would seem to be the same with urushi. Artisans who work with the
                        stuff regularly do develop a tolerance. I saw a video once of
                        someone smearing it on with fingers with no ill effects.

                        Do be careful, but as long as you don't get it on yourself, you
                        should probably be ok. As far as importing it, it seems to be a
                        gray area. Paint is paint, most likely as far as customs is
                        concerned.



                        > The few times I've messed with the real thing (ok, once ;) I'm
                        apparently
                        > not affected by it much. No more than working with carbon fiber.
                        There are a
                        > whole lot more dangerous things in my garage than lacquer. Methlyene
                        > chloride comes to mind ;)
                        >
                      • Bubba
                        ... From what I understand the two plants have the same poison. If that s the case it won t do anything to me at all. I can roll naked in poison ivy and
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 7, 2003
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                          DP Gregersen wrote:
                          > I'm not a botonist, but the urushi tree is a distant relation of
                          > poison oak, and the sickness produces similar symptoms.

                          From what I understand the two plants have the same poison. If that's the
                          case it won't do anything to me at all. I can roll naked in poison ivy and
                          nothing happens... well, the poison ivy and anyone watching might get upset
                          ;)

                          > Do be careful, but as long as you don't get it on yourself, you
                          > should probably be ok. As far as importing it, it seems to be a
                          > gray area. Paint is paint, most likely as far as customs is
                          > concerned.

                          There are places to get it domestically, but I've been doing a bit of
                          reading and have found that there are better wearing things out there. Epoxy
                          and automotive paint being very high on the list. Not period, but good for
                          things that will actually be worn regularly.
                          --
                          Kagemasa
                          mysticz28@...
                          He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
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