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Re: [SCA-JML] Shinobi v. Samurai

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  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... Those weren t samurai. They were Buddhist monks, called komuso. Effingham Wondering where his laundry basket got to...
    Message 1 of 8 , May 2, 2000
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      markejag@... wrote:

      > Refresh my memory. Who were the 'samurai' who went about with baskets on
      > there heads, playing shakuhachi, who were regarded as 'spies'? OR did I
      > misinterpret the description?

      Those weren't samurai. They were Buddhist monks, called komuso.


      Effingham
      Wondering where his laundry basket got to... <G>
    • fsjlb4
      ... outfit... But, some Eta and peasant developped some martial technique, weapons and warfare to defend themselves from over-ruling samurai. By the
      Message 2 of 8 , May 2, 2000
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        >===== Original Message From sca-jml@egroups.com =====
        >Konnichi wah,
        >
        >The ninja phenomenon was mostly constructed by Hollywood... Especially the
        outfit... But, some Eta and peasant developped some martial technique,
        weapons and warfare to defend themselves from over-ruling samurai. By the
        officials, they were considered criminals. So very few
        >of them were real samurai. They didn't respect honor and bushido.
        >But, Oda Nobunaga used Ninja warfare with Hanzo Hattori, who rallied the
        Ninja families together to fight for Japan Unification...
        >In fact, samurai and ninja are not opposites. Nor they are the same people,
        at all. But they are linked.
        >I suggest you read Masaaki Hatsumi book; Ninjutsu, History And Tradition. the
        author related with good accuracy the history of his heritage...

        I will look this up. Do you have information on who Masaaki Hatsumi is?
        Where did he get his information?

        >I strongly discourage someone to play a SCA ninja persona. First, if you want
        to make it "period", tell no one, and do not be recognised as a ninja. Just
        imagined a second, an Eta walking down the street, crossing proud samurai, and
        yelling: "I'm a spy, and I'll oppose any samurai
        >trying to arrest me!!!"

        I wasn't looking at it from that angle--more of just research into Japanese
        history in general.

        >A ninja known as such in feudal japan, was probabbly condamned and executed
        on the spot by any samurai...

        Not neccessarily. After all, weren't there supposed to be known ninja
        guarding castles at both Osaka and Edo? I also understand that Maeda Toshii
        was well known for consorting with ninja and his skillful use of them.


        -Godric Logan
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... He s the umpty-third grand master of one school or another of ninpo. Author of a dozen odd books, frequent advisor on TV shows, subject of dozens and
        Message 3 of 8 , May 2, 2000
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          fsjlb4 wrote:

          > I will look this up. Do you have information on who Masaaki Hatsumi is?
          > Where did he get his information?

          He's the umpty-third grand master of one school or another of ninpo. Author of a
          dozen odd books, frequent advisor on TV shows, subject of dozens and dozens of
          matazine articles/.


          Effingham
        • M.Giard
          read Masaaki Hatsumi book; Ninjutsu, History And Tradition. the author related with good accuracy the history of his heritage... I will look this up. Do you
          Message 4 of 8 , May 4, 2000
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            read Masaaki Hatsumi book; Ninjutsu, History And Tradition. the
            author related with good accuracy the history of his heritage...

            I will look this up.  Do you have information on who Masaaki Hatsumi is? 
            Where did he get his information?
            He is the 34th Soke (grand master) of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, and also Soke of 7 other ninjutsu ryu... It may sounds too much for one men, but that's really it... He is a real authority in Ninjutsu...

            >A ninja known as such in feudal japan, was probabbly condamned and executed
            on the spot by any samurai...

            Not neccessarily.  After all, weren't there supposed to be known ninja
            guarding castles at both Osaka and Edo?  I also understand that Maeda Toshii
            was well known for consorting with ninja and his skillful use of them.

            Well, yes... Like Hattori HAnzo, Tokugawa gave him the title of security chief at the rear gate of Edo... The ninja were a "weapon" used by Daimyos when they fight together... Ninjas were only special comandos and spys...
            I don't agree with the image of black masked ninja scalling castle walls, sneaking back alleys and roofs to kill everyone in the castle with a ninja-to... They were master of stategy, so they were better to take minimum risks by putting some make-up and take the role of an eta, peasant or new servant to sneak in the victim chamber and put some poison on the tea...
            BUt ninja were also on the battlefields, (the unification wars period) were they were probably masked, and lightly but deadly equipped... but not in pitch black outfit... I hate this taboo of black outfit... ;-)
            Hanzo Masanari
             
             
          • Barbara Nostrand
            Baron Edward! ... More accurately, they were supposed to be Buddhist monks. That particular group is pretty famous for having included spies. Whether or not
            Message 5 of 8 , May 21, 2000
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              Baron Edward!

              >> Refresh my memory. Who were the 'samurai' who went about with baskets on
              >> there heads, playing shakuhachi, who were regarded as 'spies'? OR did I
              >> misinterpret the description?
              >
              >Those weren't samurai. They were Buddhist monks, called komuso.

              More accurately, they were supposed to be Buddhist monks. That particular
              group is pretty famous for having included spies. Whether or not all of
              those folks with the basket over their head were really nyuudou or not
              is a matter of conjector. I would hazard that at least some of them were
              not.

              Now then. Is this particular group of interest for the Society? As I
              recall, this group is known for being employed by the Tokugawa bakufu
              which makes them post period.

              As for ninja. The thing to remember about the buke is that it was
              a hereditary caste and not a specific job. Certain jobs held more
              prestige than others. The word "samurai" as I recall is derived
              from the earlier word "saburau" which pretty much means "to serve"
              and refered to certain female attendants in the Heian court.
              Regardless of etymology, the esstential fact is that being a
              "samurai" is orthogonal to engaging in ninja activities.

              As for hollywood, my impression is that Tokyo film studies such as
              Toei were making ninja movies a long time before hollywood ever
              heard of them.

              Finnaly. Ninja Hatori Kun is one of my favourite kid's comics.
              Nin nin!

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

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