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Re: [SCA-JML] Shinobi v. Samurai

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  • markejag@aol.com
    Refresh my memory. Who were the samurai who went about with baskets on there heads, playing shakuhachi, who were regarded as spies ? OR did I misinterpret
    Message 1 of 8 , May 2, 2000
      Refresh my memory. Who were the 'samurai' who went about with baskets on
      there heads, playing shakuhachi, who were regarded as 'spies'? OR did I
      misinterpret the description?

      Fumio

      << Oh, it was occasionally a useful skill.

      Effingham >>
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... The concept of who was ninja was never clearly defined. One of Ieyasu s unit commanders, a very samurai sort of fellow, was one of the archetype ninja,
      Message 2 of 8 , May 2, 2000
        fsjlb4 wrote:

        >
        > What connection was there between samurai and ninja? Were they completely
        > seperate (a person was either a samurai or a ninja) or were there crossovers
        > between the two?

        The concept of "who was ninja" was never clearly defined. One of Ieyasu's unit
        commanders, a very samurai sort of fellow, was one of the archetype ninja,
        Hattori Hanzo. One name often identified as "the first ninja" is Kusunoki
        Masashige.

        We have to separate the ninjers of Hollyhockwood and history, but it's not that
        easy since even modern ninja students (that is, students of the history of
        ninja, not students studying for ninjahood) buy very much into the popular
        history. It's like kyudo schools will tell you of the sport's ancient lineage,
        when what we know of as kyudo is really only about 100 years old, and the same
        with sumo. Those "ancient" sumo traditions don't predate the 18th c. in any way
        shape or form.

        So... were there people dressed in black climbing castle walls? Hmm. Probably.
        Some of them may have been samurai; I can't imagine many daimyo trusting
        non-clan people for some assignments. Were they freelancers, commoners or eta?
        Could be. Some were probably groups of both, a band of specialists led by a
        samurai... but were they true ninja, or just a special commando unit?

        >
        > Also, what would the samurai do when they tried to be 'sneaky'? Or was that
        > not a samurai thing?

        Oh, it was occasionally a useful skill.

        Effingham
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Those weren t samurai. They were Buddhist monks, called komuso. Effingham Wondering where his laundry basket got to...
        Message 3 of 8 , May 2, 2000
          markejag@... wrote:

          > Refresh my memory. Who were the 'samurai' who went about with baskets on
          > there heads, playing shakuhachi, who were regarded as 'spies'? OR did I
          > misinterpret the description?

          Those weren't samurai. They were Buddhist monks, called komuso.


          Effingham
          Wondering where his laundry basket got to... <G>
        • fsjlb4
          ... outfit... But, some Eta and peasant developped some martial technique, weapons and warfare to defend themselves from over-ruling samurai. By the
          Message 4 of 8 , May 2, 2000
            >===== Original Message From sca-jml@egroups.com =====
            >Konnichi wah,
            >
            >The ninja phenomenon was mostly constructed by Hollywood... Especially the
            outfit... But, some Eta and peasant developped some martial technique,
            weapons and warfare to defend themselves from over-ruling samurai. By the
            officials, they were considered criminals. So very few
            >of them were real samurai. They didn't respect honor and bushido.
            >But, Oda Nobunaga used Ninja warfare with Hanzo Hattori, who rallied the
            Ninja families together to fight for Japan Unification...
            >In fact, samurai and ninja are not opposites. Nor they are the same people,
            at all. But they are linked.
            >I suggest you read Masaaki Hatsumi book; Ninjutsu, History And Tradition. the
            author related with good accuracy the history of his heritage...

            I will look this up. Do you have information on who Masaaki Hatsumi is?
            Where did he get his information?

            >I strongly discourage someone to play a SCA ninja persona. First, if you want
            to make it "period", tell no one, and do not be recognised as a ninja. Just
            imagined a second, an Eta walking down the street, crossing proud samurai, and
            yelling: "I'm a spy, and I'll oppose any samurai
            >trying to arrest me!!!"

            I wasn't looking at it from that angle--more of just research into Japanese
            history in general.

            >A ninja known as such in feudal japan, was probabbly condamned and executed
            on the spot by any samurai...

            Not neccessarily. After all, weren't there supposed to be known ninja
            guarding castles at both Osaka and Edo? I also understand that Maeda Toshii
            was well known for consorting with ninja and his skillful use of them.


            -Godric Logan
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... He s the umpty-third grand master of one school or another of ninpo. Author of a dozen odd books, frequent advisor on TV shows, subject of dozens and
            Message 5 of 8 , May 2, 2000
              fsjlb4 wrote:

              > I will look this up. Do you have information on who Masaaki Hatsumi is?
              > Where did he get his information?

              He's the umpty-third grand master of one school or another of ninpo. Author of a
              dozen odd books, frequent advisor on TV shows, subject of dozens and dozens of
              matazine articles/.


              Effingham
            • M.Giard
              read Masaaki Hatsumi book; Ninjutsu, History And Tradition. the author related with good accuracy the history of his heritage... I will look this up. Do you
              Message 6 of 8 , May 4, 2000
                read Masaaki Hatsumi book; Ninjutsu, History And Tradition. the
                author related with good accuracy the history of his heritage...

                I will look this up.  Do you have information on who Masaaki Hatsumi is? 
                Where did he get his information?
                He is the 34th Soke (grand master) of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, and also Soke of 7 other ninjutsu ryu... It may sounds too much for one men, but that's really it... He is a real authority in Ninjutsu...

                >A ninja known as such in feudal japan, was probabbly condamned and executed
                on the spot by any samurai...

                Not neccessarily.  After all, weren't there supposed to be known ninja
                guarding castles at both Osaka and Edo?  I also understand that Maeda Toshii
                was well known for consorting with ninja and his skillful use of them.

                Well, yes... Like Hattori HAnzo, Tokugawa gave him the title of security chief at the rear gate of Edo... The ninja were a "weapon" used by Daimyos when they fight together... Ninjas were only special comandos and spys...
                I don't agree with the image of black masked ninja scalling castle walls, sneaking back alleys and roofs to kill everyone in the castle with a ninja-to... They were master of stategy, so they were better to take minimum risks by putting some make-up and take the role of an eta, peasant or new servant to sneak in the victim chamber and put some poison on the tea...
                BUt ninja were also on the battlefields, (the unification wars period) were they were probably masked, and lightly but deadly equipped... but not in pitch black outfit... I hate this taboo of black outfit... ;-)
                Hanzo Masanari
                 
                 
              • Barbara Nostrand
                Baron Edward! ... More accurately, they were supposed to be Buddhist monks. That particular group is pretty famous for having included spies. Whether or not
                Message 7 of 8 , May 21, 2000
                  Baron Edward!

                  >> Refresh my memory. Who were the 'samurai' who went about with baskets on
                  >> there heads, playing shakuhachi, who were regarded as 'spies'? OR did I
                  >> misinterpret the description?
                  >
                  >Those weren't samurai. They were Buddhist monks, called komuso.

                  More accurately, they were supposed to be Buddhist monks. That particular
                  group is pretty famous for having included spies. Whether or not all of
                  those folks with the basket over their head were really nyuudou or not
                  is a matter of conjector. I would hazard that at least some of them were
                  not.

                  Now then. Is this particular group of interest for the Society? As I
                  recall, this group is known for being employed by the Tokugawa bakufu
                  which makes them post period.

                  As for ninja. The thing to remember about the buke is that it was
                  a hereditary caste and not a specific job. Certain jobs held more
                  prestige than others. The word "samurai" as I recall is derived
                  from the earlier word "saburau" which pretty much means "to serve"
                  and refered to certain female attendants in the Heian court.
                  Regardless of etymology, the esstential fact is that being a
                  "samurai" is orthogonal to engaging in ninja activities.

                  As for hollywood, my impression is that Tokyo film studies such as
                  Toei were making ninja movies a long time before hollywood ever
                  heard of them.

                  Finnaly. Ninja Hatori Kun is one of my favourite kid's comics.
                  Nin nin!

                  Your Humble Servant
                  Solveig Throndardottir
                  Amateur Scholar

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