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[SCA-JML] Re: Kataginu

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  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... Of course kataginu are period. There s a 1575 portrait of Nobunaga wearing one. What is *not* period are the big kataginu with the batwing folds. Those are
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 7, 1999
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      Markejag@... wrote:

      > Greetings All,
      >
      > I found some documentation on kataginu for those who have and still want to
      > wear them and still be in period.
      > 1). In an eight-panel screen, showing urban life at a kosode shop, in the
      > corner we see samurai wearing kataginu while gambling, the mon is clearly
      > noted on the right and left strips, panel dates to mid 16th century, from the
      > Tokyo National Museum, Japanese Costume, History and Tradition by Alan
      > Kennedy.
      > 2). From a page of the Hojo Godai-ki, 1559 - 1587 (?), a young retainer is
      > serving sake while wearing kataginu, Samurai Warlords by Stephen Turnbull.
      > I think that the first reference is more reliable than the second, but in
      > either case, there is some confidence that kataginu were wore before 1600.

      Of course kataginu are period. There's a 1575 portrait of Nobunaga wearing one.

      What is *not* period are the big kataginu with the batwing folds. Those are an
      Edo development.


      Effingham
    • Scott
      I am sure that this question has been raised in the past, but I would like some help. I am looking for some paterns for proper period kataginu. I have found
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 5, 2008
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        I am sure that this question has been raised in the past, but I would
        like some help. I am looking for some paterns for proper period
        kataginu. I have found pictures, but no paterns or instructions about
        how to make them. I do not mean the later Tokugawa style with the
        overly large stiffened shoulders, but rather the smaller Momoyama
        version. Thanks.
      • wodeford
        ... Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Garb%20files/ and look for a PDF on Hitatare. It includes a kataginu pattern that should suit you.
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 5, 2008
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          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <scottc_4@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am sure that this question has been raised in the past, but I would
          > like some help. I am looking for some paterns for proper period
          > kataginu. I have found pictures, but no paterns or instructions about
          > how to make them. I do not mean the later Tokugawa style with the
          > overly large stiffened shoulders, but rather the smaller Momoyama
          > version. Thanks.
          >
          Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Garb%20files/ and
          look for a PDF on "Hitatare." It includes a kataginu pattern that
          should suit you.

          Saionji no Hanae
          West Kingdom
        • JL Badgley
          ... To elaborate a little more: the kataginu is basically a hitatare without sleeves. It is one large rectangle at the back, and two thin rectangles hanging
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 5, 2008
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            On 3/6/08, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <scottc_4@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > I am sure that this question has been raised in the past, but I would
            > > like some help. I am looking for some paterns for proper period
            > > kataginu. I have found pictures, but no paterns or instructions about
            > > how to make them. I do not mean the later Tokugawa style with the
            > > overly large stiffened shoulders, but rather the smaller Momoyama
            > > version. Thanks.
            > >
            > Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Garb%20files/ and
            > look for a PDF on "Hitatare." It includes a kataginu pattern that
            > should suit you.
            >
            > Saionji no Hanae
            > West Kingdom
            >
            To elaborate a little more: the kataginu is basically a hitatare
            without sleeves. It is one large rectangle at the back, and two thin
            rectangles hanging down the front. One of the easiest garments to
            make (not sure why I haven't made more... hmmm). If you want to get
            really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give you a
            slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
            monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.

            Oh, and if you are going to put a design on the back, make sure you
            measure where it will fall so it doesn't hide behind your koshi-himo
            of your hakama! (Oops :0)

            -Ii
          • Seki Nakagawa
            Very good point! -Sukeie ...make sure you measure where it will fall so it doesn t hide behind your koshi-himo of your hakama! (Oops :0) -Ii [Non-text portions
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 6, 2008
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              Very good point!

              -Sukeie

              ...make sure you measure where it will fall so it doesn't hide behind your koshi-himo
              of your hakama! (Oops :0)

              -Ii


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nick
              ... The Hitatare PDF is great! Does anybody have an example of what this looks like with pleats? Or a pattern of where to place them? thanks for any help!
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 28, 2008
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                >"JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                >If you want to get
                > really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give you a
                > slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
                > monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.

                The "Hitatare" PDF is great!
                Does anybody have an example of what this looks like with pleats?
                Or a pattern of where to place them?

                thanks for any help!

                --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                >
                > On 3/6/08, wodeford wodeford@... wrote:
                > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" scottc_4@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I am sure that this question has been raised in the past, but I
                would
                > > > like some help. I am looking for some paterns for proper period
                > > > kataginu. I have found pictures, but no paterns or instructions
                about
                > > > how to make them. I do not mean the later Tokugawa style with the
                > > > overly large stiffened shoulders, but rather the smaller Momoyama
                > > > version. Thanks.
                > > >
                > > Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Garb%20files/ and
                > > look for a PDF on "Hitatare." It includes a kataginu pattern that
                > > should suit you.
                > >
                > > Saionji no Hanae
                > > West Kingdom
                > >
                > To elaborate a little more: the kataginu is basically a hitatare
                > without sleeves. It is one large rectangle at the back, and two thin
                > rectangles hanging down the front. One of the easiest garments to
                > make (not sure why I haven't made more... hmmm). If you want to get
                > really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give you a
                > slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
                > monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.
                >
                > Oh, and if you are going to put a design on the back, make sure you
                > measure where it will fall so it doesn't hide behind your koshi-himo
                > of your hakama! (Oops :0)
                >
                > -Ii
                >
              • JL Badgley
                ... Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is slightly folded when worn): http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 28, 2008
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                  On 3/29/08, Nick <eldon_seer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > >"JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                  > >If you want to get
                  > > really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give you a
                  > > slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
                  > > monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.
                  >
                  > The "Hitatare" PDF is great!
                  > Does anybody have an example of what this looks like with pleats?
                  > Or a pattern of where to place them?
                  >
                  > thanks for any help!
                  >

                  Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is
                  slightly folded when worn):
                  http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100

                  Here's the picture they are emulating:
                  http://www.sobacanada.com/DSCN0010.JPG

                  Unfortunately, most of the other pictures I can find are of later Edo
                  period kataginu, but I've seen something in between.

                  -Ii
                • wodeford
                  ... http://wodefordhall.com/iikataginuback.jpg shows Ii-dono with his kataginu pleated and held in place by his obi before the hakama went on over it.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 28, 2008
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                    --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                    > Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is
                    > slightly folded when worn):
                    > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100
                    >
                    > Here's the picture they are emulating:
                    > http://www.sobacanada.com/DSCN0010.JPG
                    >
                    > Unfortunately, most of the other pictures I can find are of later Edo
                    > period kataginu, but I've seen something in between.

                    http://wodefordhall.com/iikataginuback.jpg shows Ii-dono with his
                    kataginu "pleated" and held in place by his obi before the hakama went
                    on over it.

                    Saionji no Hanae
                    West Kingdom
                  • David Nesmith
                    YAY!!! THEY VE GOT A PICTURE OF MY IRIS!!! (sorta) Ishikawa Moritake gules, a japanese iris or ... Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 28, 2008
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                      YAY!!! THEY'VE GOT A PICTURE OF "MY" IRIS!!! (sorta)
                      Ishikawa Moritake
                      gules, a japanese iris or

                      JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote: On 3/29/08, Nick <eldon_seer@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > >"JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                      > >If you want to get
                      > > really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give you a
                      > > slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
                      > > monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.
                      >
                      > The "Hitatare" PDF is great!
                      > Does anybody have an example of what this looks like with pleats?
                      > Or a pattern of where to place them?
                      >
                      > thanks for any help!
                      >

                      Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is
                      slightly folded when worn):
                      http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100

                      Here's the picture they are emulating:
                      http://www.sobacanada.com/DSCN0010.JPG

                      Unfortunately, most of the other pictures I can find are of later Edo
                      period kataginu, but I've seen something in between.

                      -Ii





                      It's loud, it's obnoxious, it scares people, it can raise the blood. Bagpipes, the original rock 'n' roll instrument!

                      test'; " type=text/css>


                      ---------------------------------
                      No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal for Yahoo! users and friends.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • David
                      oops! now that I put my glasses on, it is not an iris but the kiri crest. but real close. nice to see a kamon WITHOUT the circle! Ishikawa ... you a ...
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 28, 2008
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                        oops! now that I put my glasses on, it is not an iris but the kiri
                        crest. but real close. nice to see a kamon WITHOUT the circle!

                        Ishikawa

                        --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > YAY!!! THEY'VE GOT A PICTURE OF "MY" IRIS!!! (sorta)
                        > Ishikawa Moritake
                        > gules, a japanese iris or
                        >
                        > JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote: On
                        3/29/08, Nick <eldon_seer@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >"JL Badgley" <tatsushu@> wrote:
                        > > >If you want to get
                        > > > really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give
                        you a
                        > > > slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
                        > > > monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.
                        > >
                        > > The "Hitatare" PDF is great!
                        > > Does anybody have an example of what this looks like with pleats?
                        > > Or a pattern of where to place them?
                        > >
                        > > thanks for any help!
                        > >
                        >
                        > Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is
                        > slightly folded when worn):
                        > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100
                        >
                        > Here's the picture they are emulating:
                        > http://www.sobacanada.com/DSCN0010.JPG
                        >
                        > Unfortunately, most of the other pictures I can find are of later Edo
                        > period kataginu, but I've seen something in between.
                        >
                        > -Ii
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > It's loud, it's obnoxious, it scares people, it can raise the blood.
                        Bagpipes, the original rock 'n' roll instrument!
                        >
                        > test'; " type=text/css>
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal
                        for Yahoo! users and friends.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Nick
                        This is just what I was looking for (and had passed by without even noticing) Thanks so much for the help!
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 29, 2008
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                          This is just what I was looking for (and had passed by without even
                          noticing)
                          Thanks so much for the help!

                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "JL Badgley" <tatsushu@> wrote:
                          > > Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is
                          > > slightly folded when worn):
                          > > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100
                          > >
                          > > Here's the picture they are emulating:
                          > > http://www.sobacanada.com/DSCN0010.JPG
                          > >
                          > > Unfortunately, most of the other pictures I can find are of later Edo
                          > > period kataginu, but I've seen something in between.
                          >
                          > http://wodefordhall.com/iikataginuback.jpg shows Ii-dono with his
                          > kataginu "pleated" and held in place by his obi before the hakama went
                          > on over it.
                          >
                          > Saionji no Hanae
                          > West Kingdom
                          >
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