Re: [SCA-JML] Re: 32 or 62 plate helm's
- On Sunday, September 7, 2003, at 10:21 PM, Jason Silver wrote:
> Greetings Sir Koredono-DonoActually, An Tir does have one of the highest calibrations (in terms of
> Glad to have your responce.. My responces are intermixed.. :)
> --- In email@example.com, Donald J. Luby <djl@t...> wrote:
>> I really think that for a 32-plate kabuto you needn't go any heavier
>> than 16 ga.; heck, if it were legal, it actually suggest 18 ga. The
>> reason for the 16 ga. requirement for SCA helms is primarily weight,
>> not strength
> I understand what your saying.. Here is my concern... First, In An Tir
> the minimums is 16 ga., but my concern is for those who do use a 16 ga
> helm, I have seen them get dented time and again (maybe our fighters
> just hit harder? ;) LOL )
blow force delivered) in the SCA, on a kingdom-wide scale; but I play
with people from the East (esp, the NY/NJ area) and Atlantia all the
time who have comparable, if not higher, blow calibrations; I have a
friend in NYC who had his squire switch to an 8 ga. raised helmet
because the 12 ga. one was getting dented too much.
> , any ways, that does concern me.. If I am making a helm that isActually, yes, I can. While my 18-plate bowl has gotten a few dents
> multi-plate the last thing I want is that helm getting dented, can you
> imagine trying to pound out the dent from a multi-plate helm?
over the years - it was my regular helmet for more than 10 years, and
is still my practice (as opposed to tourney/event) helmet - because of
the size of the plates pounding them out really isn't that bad. The
32-plate bowl, OTOH, because of the size of plates relative to the
overlap of plates is much smaller (and thus, the percentage of any
given plate that is overlapped at least once is much higher), has no
dents, not do I expect any - remember, on average, it's the equivalent
of perhaps 8 ga steel or more, made out of 16 ga plates.
So, while I understand your concerns for denting, I do not that think a
16 ga. 32-palte bowl kabuto will get any significant dents in the bowl
in any short period of time (<5 yr), unless someone hits it *really*
>> In the course of my SCA fighting career (17+ yrs) I have worn threeSee above.
>> kabuto - one with a spun bowl, with with 18 plates, and one with 32
>> plates, all made from 16 ga., and the overlap of the plates is the
>> same (~.5"); for comparison, I also happen to have a 3-plate 14 ga.
>> kabuto. The spun bowl is obviously going to be the minimum weight of
>> the bunch, and it comes in around 8 lbs, while the 14 ga. 3-plate is
>> around 9 lbs.; these two are considered 'safe' by SCA standards, and
>> about what a 'normal' helmet weighs. Compared to that, the 18-plate
>> comes in at 12.5 lbs, and the 32-plate weighs a whopping 15+ lbs;
>> this is because of the amount of overlapping of the plates (at the
>> top of the bowl, there are places under the hachi where there are
>> four plates completely overlapping). Many fighters who have picked
>> up my 32-plate bowl kabuto claim it is the heaviest helmet they've
>> ever lifted, or at least in the top 1% - 3%.
> Ok, I have a spun top as well, 14 ga, the only dent I have is in the
> side of the helm... Have you ever had a dent in the 18 or 32 plate
The only significant dent in the 18-plate bowl is (as you're wearing
it) the front/left upper quadrant, about where a right-handed flat
snap, coming down and in at a 45 degree angle to the ground, would hit.
That happened after I'd been wearing that helm for 8 or 9 years
regularly (once or twice a week, every week, to practice, plus probably
20 - 30 fighting events a year), and getting that dent was the impetus
to ordering my 32-plate bowl kabuto. I should mention that I fought
with that helm for another 1.5 years before getting the dent pounded
out, and since then, the dent has not gotten worse again, even with the
abuse it's gotten since (2 - 3 fighting practices a week, plus 30 - 40
fighting events a year except for the past year, for 4 years).
> The basic idea is to get plates that if stacked 3 on top of each otherI'm not sure I quite understand - are you planning on making the plates
> they would have the thickness of a 16 ga or 14 ga sheet..
initially out of something significantly thinner than 16 ga such that
three thicknesses would be as thick as 14 - 16 ga, or are you planning
on making it out of 3 thicknesses of 14 or 16 ga to start with?
If the first case, it may be legal, assuming you have complete overlap
to make it at least 14 or 16 ga, but I'm not completely sure.
If the second, I think that's just complete overkill.
> Once we have that thickness figured out we can take it from there..I downloaded it off the An Tir web page. According to it (and SEM
> The plates will overlap each other by 2/3's so that where ever a rivet
> is there are 3 plates to go through, sure a little harder but more
> period I would think and would conform to SCA standards a bit better..
> If it would helm I can post a copy of the ABC's (An Tir Book of
policy), under Heavy Rattan VII.A.2.a (Armor Requirements/Armor
Construction/Helms) (A.1.a under SEM polciy) it says "Helms must be
constructed of steel of no less than 16 gauge, or of approved
equivalent material". If you're going with the first plan I mentioned
above (making the helms out of less than 16 ga. steel but overlapping
them such that all the layers together are always more than 16 ga.
thick) I would check with your Earl Marshall before beginning to make
helms that way - he *may* decide that multiple thickesses of plate that
sum to greater than 16 ga. are not the equivalent of straight 16 ga.;
that may depend on the original thickess of the steel you're working
with, and the net thickness you expect to end up with.
Personally, I don't have a problem with it *in concept*, though I think
you'd be better off with two thicknesses of 22 - 24 ga. than three
thickness of 40 - 50 ga.; but I'd have to do some research before
allowing myself to being committed on that stance.
>> So, there are several things which can be learned from this:Three plates which will sum to 16 ga. ought to weigh exactly the same
>> 1. a 16 ga. 32-plate bowl kabuto will weigh about twice as much as an
>> SCA-minimum helmet, and probably about 50% more than 12 ga. helmet
>> that has little or no overlapping major plates;
>> 2. a 64-plate bowl kabuto, given the same kinds of construction
>> parameters (gauge of steel, amount of overlap per plate, and general
>> size of helmet), I would guess would weigh between 18 and 20 lbs;
>> 3. a 32-plate bowl *10 ga.* kabuto, made like mine, would weigh, I
>> would guess, 20 - 25 lbs, and a 64-plate bowl 10 ga. would come in
>> closer to 30 lbs!
> Please remember, that in the helms I am looking at doing, each plate
> is NOT 16 gage, but 3 plates equal out to 16 (or 14) ga.. Will make a
> difference in weight I would say :)
as 16 ga.; in that case, you'll be working with 40 - 50 ga. steel (can
you even buy that in sheets?), and I can see many marshals having real
issues with it. I would *definitely* strongly urge that you speak with
your Earl Marshal before proceeding with actual construction, as he may
not deem that legal. I know that sounds like a pain and
rules-lawyering, but if it's not going to considered safe and legal,
then there's no real use in making it, and it'd be a shame for you to
put in all that work for nothing.
Also, I was responding to your post wherein you said you could make
them up to 10 ga., if so desired; that's where #3 above comes from.
>> Will all that, I would suggest that for anything more than a 8-plateThat I'm uncertain of; I know that my armorer who's been playing with
>> bowl, you not make it out of anything heavier than 16 ga - not only
>> will it be a a real bear to wear, and screw up your center of mass
>> something terrible, it might even be dangerous (thinking of all that
>> extra mass on the head when the neck isn't really strong enough for
>> it gives me a bad feeling).
>> One more piece of advice I would give, based on opinions of my
>> favorite local armorers (the ones who've made my kabuto over the
>> years, who *really* know their stuff) - if you don't want to work
>> with 'regular' steel, I'd suggest spring steel over stainless. I'm
>> told that spring steel is far better to work with, more resistant to
>> dents and other damage, more period, and, if the kabuto is going to
>> be painted or lacquered, then the 'stainless' aspect is put to waste
>> (even if it's not painted, unfinished spring steel looks for more
>> 'real' than unfinished stainless).
> I will look into spring steel for sure!!!! The only concern I have is
> that we would have to play with it lots at first to find the correct
> bend because as soon as it is let out of the die will it not
> straighten out some what?
it a lot in the past couple of years has made some amazing pieces out
of it (including a set of list-legal finger gauntlets), without any
tendency for it to 'spring' back into a flat sheet, and another friend
of mine had this armor made
for his knighting 5 years ago, out of hardened spring steel; AFAIK, he
has not had any issues with it deforming in any way whatsoever, nor was
there any during the construction process.
> The idea is that we can just put a plate in, stamp it and BINGO aThat would certainly be *most* excellent - I hate having to repaint my
> plate is done, almost that fast!! Our goal is to at some point have it
> so that a 32 or 64 plate helm can be
> produced in a day.. If we have to do more work to continue the bend
> then it will slow the time and raise the cost, we honestly hope to
> produce helms for costs close to what normal helms are selling for..
> Of course we will offer additions to the helm, each for a small
> additional price, but by the time we are done a fully completed helm
> might cost as much as $300.00 or $400.00 but that could possibly
> include having the helm poweder coated along looking like a full
> fledged japanese helm with underlying SCA influence ( all it will need
> is the padding on the inside)..
helmet every year or so.
> Also we are looking at having leather bags available for each helmetLikewise.
> for additional costs of course.. Lots of little things we are figuring
>> My new kabuto, which will probably be done in about 2 years (an
>> excellent armorer is worth waiting through his backlog) will be an
>> 8-plate bowl made of 16 ga. spring steel.
> OH MOST AGREED! I can only hope that in the future this will be where
> I am at..
> I look forward to further conversation on this matter :)
> Imakawa Shirou YoshitakaKoredono
- Greetings Date-Dono
Just a little note.. The helmet in question is not a multiplate
helmet, it is a spun top bowl.. 1 solid plate run through a lathe and
made into a perfect dome.. If squished it should not effect the over
all strength of the helm.. :)
Just thought you should know :)
Imakawa Shirou Yoshitaka
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Yama Kaminari no Date Saburou
Yukiie" <kabuto@c...> wrote:
> I havent tried it yet, BUT some one told me to take the helm and put
> it in a press.. Squish it a little so that it is a tad bit oval and
> that will remove the ringing.. Just was some one told me to do..
> Sounds good, but does it really work? :)
> With regards to the above, only very early Kabuto Hachi had a
> footprint. These are Marubachi. - latter kabuto hachi tended tohave
> an oval shape built in to it. I don't know if the squash methodwould
> work to aleviate ringing, but I do know another method...padding
> I make my padding in wedge shapes that fit up into the bowl. I take
> the foam, and make a lining out of red cotton towel...thick and
> absorbant. I cover the padding so it makes a neat appearance, and
> barge cement the padding in place.
> It makes the kabuto easy to get in and out of, and does a lot to
> dissipate any shot you may take.
> Some people put minimal padding in the helm...others stuff the
> in and duct tape it, but I have found my method to be worry-free.foam
> After fighting in it, and between bouts, I turn the bowl out to let
> the towel/foam dry.
> My menpo is lined in a similar way, and between the padding and the
> compound curves, it will stop a truck...the dissipation of shots is
> very reassuring.
> I have found that if I leave about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch gap between
> wedges in the bowl, some air can circulate to and out thetehen...and
> this stops the ringing. The sound of the shikoro getting smacked ismethod
> something that one has to live with, of course, but it is not so bad
> with the ringing deadened by the bowl padding.
> From an armoring standpoint, I worry a little about the squish
> above, since it may put odd stresses on the rivit work...the plates
> might get torqued slightly out of alignment and not sit flat against
> each other.
> I hope this is of some use...
> Date Saburou Yukiie
> Yama Kaminari Ryu
> Shi wa hei to de aru - all are equal in the grave...