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[SCA-JML] Kataginu

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  • Markejag@aol.com
    Greetings All, I found some documentation on kataginu for those who have and still want to wear them and still be in period. 1). In an eight-panel screen,
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 6, 1999
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      Greetings All,

      I found some documentation on kataginu for those who have and still want to
      wear them and still be in period.
      1). In an eight-panel screen, showing urban life at a kosode shop, in the
      corner we see samurai wearing kataginu while gambling, the mon is clearly
      noted on the right and left strips, panel dates to mid 16th century, from the
      Tokyo National Museum, Japanese Costume, History and Tradition by Alan
      Kennedy.
      2). From a page of the Hojo Godai-ki, 1559 - 1587 (?), a young retainer is
      serving sake while wearing kataginu, Samurai Warlords by Stephen Turnbull.
      I think that the first reference is more reliable than the second, but in
      either case, there is some confidence that kataginu were wore before 1600.

      Fumio
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Of course kataginu are period. There s a 1575 portrait of Nobunaga wearing one. What is *not* period are the big kataginu with the batwing folds. Those are
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 7, 1999
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        Markejag@... wrote:

        > Greetings All,
        >
        > I found some documentation on kataginu for those who have and still want to
        > wear them and still be in period.
        > 1). In an eight-panel screen, showing urban life at a kosode shop, in the
        > corner we see samurai wearing kataginu while gambling, the mon is clearly
        > noted on the right and left strips, panel dates to mid 16th century, from the
        > Tokyo National Museum, Japanese Costume, History and Tradition by Alan
        > Kennedy.
        > 2). From a page of the Hojo Godai-ki, 1559 - 1587 (?), a young retainer is
        > serving sake while wearing kataginu, Samurai Warlords by Stephen Turnbull.
        > I think that the first reference is more reliable than the second, but in
        > either case, there is some confidence that kataginu were wore before 1600.

        Of course kataginu are period. There's a 1575 portrait of Nobunaga wearing one.

        What is *not* period are the big kataginu with the batwing folds. Those are an
        Edo development.


        Effingham
      • Scott
        I am sure that this question has been raised in the past, but I would like some help. I am looking for some paterns for proper period kataginu. I have found
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 5, 2008
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          I am sure that this question has been raised in the past, but I would
          like some help. I am looking for some paterns for proper period
          kataginu. I have found pictures, but no paterns or instructions about
          how to make them. I do not mean the later Tokugawa style with the
          overly large stiffened shoulders, but rather the smaller Momoyama
          version. Thanks.
        • wodeford
          ... Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Garb%20files/ and look for a PDF on Hitatare. It includes a kataginu pattern that should suit you.
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 5, 2008
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            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <scottc_4@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am sure that this question has been raised in the past, but I would
            > like some help. I am looking for some paterns for proper period
            > kataginu. I have found pictures, but no paterns or instructions about
            > how to make them. I do not mean the later Tokugawa style with the
            > overly large stiffened shoulders, but rather the smaller Momoyama
            > version. Thanks.
            >
            Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Garb%20files/ and
            look for a PDF on "Hitatare." It includes a kataginu pattern that
            should suit you.

            Saionji no Hanae
            West Kingdom
          • JL Badgley
            ... To elaborate a little more: the kataginu is basically a hitatare without sleeves. It is one large rectangle at the back, and two thin rectangles hanging
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 5, 2008
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              On 3/6/08, wodeford <wodeford@...> wrote:
              > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <scottc_4@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I am sure that this question has been raised in the past, but I would
              > > like some help. I am looking for some paterns for proper period
              > > kataginu. I have found pictures, but no paterns or instructions about
              > > how to make them. I do not mean the later Tokugawa style with the
              > > overly large stiffened shoulders, but rather the smaller Momoyama
              > > version. Thanks.
              > >
              > Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Garb%20files/ and
              > look for a PDF on "Hitatare." It includes a kataginu pattern that
              > should suit you.
              >
              > Saionji no Hanae
              > West Kingdom
              >
              To elaborate a little more: the kataginu is basically a hitatare
              without sleeves. It is one large rectangle at the back, and two thin
              rectangles hanging down the front. One of the easiest garments to
              make (not sure why I haven't made more... hmmm). If you want to get
              really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give you a
              slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
              monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.

              Oh, and if you are going to put a design on the back, make sure you
              measure where it will fall so it doesn't hide behind your koshi-himo
              of your hakama! (Oops :0)

              -Ii
            • Seki Nakagawa
              Very good point! -Sukeie ...make sure you measure where it will fall so it doesn t hide behind your koshi-himo of your hakama! (Oops :0) -Ii [Non-text portions
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 6, 2008
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                Very good point!

                -Sukeie

                ...make sure you measure where it will fall so it doesn't hide behind your koshi-himo
                of your hakama! (Oops :0)

                -Ii


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nick
                ... The Hitatare PDF is great! Does anybody have an example of what this looks like with pleats? Or a pattern of where to place them? thanks for any help!
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 28, 2008
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                  >"JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                  >If you want to get
                  > really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give you a
                  > slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
                  > monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.

                  The "Hitatare" PDF is great!
                  Does anybody have an example of what this looks like with pleats?
                  Or a pattern of where to place them?

                  thanks for any help!

                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On 3/6/08, wodeford wodeford@... wrote:
                  > > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" scottc_4@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I am sure that this question has been raised in the past, but I
                  would
                  > > > like some help. I am looking for some paterns for proper period
                  > > > kataginu. I have found pictures, but no paterns or instructions
                  about
                  > > > how to make them. I do not mean the later Tokugawa style with the
                  > > > overly large stiffened shoulders, but rather the smaller Momoyama
                  > > > version. Thanks.
                  > > >
                  > > Go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca-jml/files/Garb%20files/ and
                  > > look for a PDF on "Hitatare." It includes a kataginu pattern that
                  > > should suit you.
                  > >
                  > > Saionji no Hanae
                  > > West Kingdom
                  > >
                  > To elaborate a little more: the kataginu is basically a hitatare
                  > without sleeves. It is one large rectangle at the back, and two thin
                  > rectangles hanging down the front. One of the easiest garments to
                  > make (not sure why I haven't made more... hmmm). If you want to get
                  > really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give you a
                  > slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
                  > monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.
                  >
                  > Oh, and if you are going to put a design on the back, make sure you
                  > measure where it will fall so it doesn't hide behind your koshi-himo
                  > of your hakama! (Oops :0)
                  >
                  > -Ii
                  >
                • JL Badgley
                  ... Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is slightly folded when worn): http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 28, 2008
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                    On 3/29/08, Nick <eldon_seer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > >"JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                    > >If you want to get
                    > > really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give you a
                    > > slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
                    > > monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.
                    >
                    > The "Hitatare" PDF is great!
                    > Does anybody have an example of what this looks like with pleats?
                    > Or a pattern of where to place them?
                    >
                    > thanks for any help!
                    >

                    Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is
                    slightly folded when worn):
                    http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100

                    Here's the picture they are emulating:
                    http://www.sobacanada.com/DSCN0010.JPG

                    Unfortunately, most of the other pictures I can find are of later Edo
                    period kataginu, but I've seen something in between.

                    -Ii
                  • wodeford
                    ... http://wodefordhall.com/iikataginuback.jpg shows Ii-dono with his kataginu pleated and held in place by his obi before the hakama went on over it.
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 28, 2008
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                      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                      > Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is
                      > slightly folded when worn):
                      > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100
                      >
                      > Here's the picture they are emulating:
                      > http://www.sobacanada.com/DSCN0010.JPG
                      >
                      > Unfortunately, most of the other pictures I can find are of later Edo
                      > period kataginu, but I've seen something in between.

                      http://wodefordhall.com/iikataginuback.jpg shows Ii-dono with his
                      kataginu "pleated" and held in place by his obi before the hakama went
                      on over it.

                      Saionji no Hanae
                      West Kingdom
                    • David Nesmith
                      YAY!!! THEY VE GOT A PICTURE OF MY IRIS!!! (sorta) Ishikawa Moritake gules, a japanese iris or ... Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 28, 2008
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                        YAY!!! THEY'VE GOT A PICTURE OF "MY" IRIS!!! (sorta)
                        Ishikawa Moritake
                        gules, a japanese iris or

                        JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote: On 3/29/08, Nick <eldon_seer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > >"JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
                        > >If you want to get
                        > > really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give you a
                        > > slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
                        > > monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.
                        >
                        > The "Hitatare" PDF is great!
                        > Does anybody have an example of what this looks like with pleats?
                        > Or a pattern of where to place them?
                        >
                        > thanks for any help!
                        >

                        Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is
                        slightly folded when worn):
                        http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100

                        Here's the picture they are emulating:
                        http://www.sobacanada.com/DSCN0010.JPG

                        Unfortunately, most of the other pictures I can find are of later Edo
                        period kataginu, but I've seen something in between.

                        -Ii





                        It's loud, it's obnoxious, it scares people, it can raise the blood. Bagpipes, the original rock 'n' roll instrument!

                        test'; " type=text/css>


                        ---------------------------------
                        No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal for Yahoo! users and friends.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David
                        oops! now that I put my glasses on, it is not an iris but the kiri crest. but real close. nice to see a kamon WITHOUT the circle! Ishikawa ... you a ...
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 28, 2008
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                          oops! now that I put my glasses on, it is not an iris but the kiri
                          crest. but real close. nice to see a kamon WITHOUT the circle!

                          Ishikawa

                          --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, David Nesmith <txpiper2001@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > YAY!!! THEY'VE GOT A PICTURE OF "MY" IRIS!!! (sorta)
                          > Ishikawa Moritake
                          > gules, a japanese iris or
                          >
                          > JL Badgley <tatsushu@...> wrote: On
                          3/29/08, Nick <eldon_seer@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >"JL Badgley" <tatsushu@> wrote:
                          > > >If you want to get
                          > > > really spiffy, you can set pleats in the front--this will give
                          you a
                          > > > slight 'wing' look if you pull it off right without giving you the
                          > > > monster Edo-period bamboo-reinforced parasails.
                          > >
                          > > The "Hitatare" PDF is great!
                          > > Does anybody have an example of what this looks like with pleats?
                          > > Or a pattern of where to place them?
                          > >
                          > > thanks for any help!
                          > >
                          >
                          > Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is
                          > slightly folded when worn):
                          > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100
                          >
                          > Here's the picture they are emulating:
                          > http://www.sobacanada.com/DSCN0010.JPG
                          >
                          > Unfortunately, most of the other pictures I can find are of later Edo
                          > period kataginu, but I've seen something in between.
                          >
                          > -Ii
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > It's loud, it's obnoxious, it scares people, it can raise the blood.
                          Bagpipes, the original rock 'n' roll instrument!
                          >
                          > test'; " type=text/css>
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > No Cost - Get a month of Blockbuster Total Access now. Sweet deal
                          for Yahoo! users and friends.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Nick
                          This is just what I was looking for (and had passed by without even noticing) Thanks so much for the help!
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 29, 2008
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                            This is just what I was looking for (and had passed by without even
                            noticing)
                            Thanks so much for the help!

                            --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "JL Badgley" <tatsushu@> wrote:
                            > > Here is one (not permanently pleated, but you can see how it is
                            > > slightly folded when worn):
                            > > http://www.iz2.or.jp/fukushoku/f_disp.php?page_no=0000100
                            > >
                            > > Here's the picture they are emulating:
                            > > http://www.sobacanada.com/DSCN0010.JPG
                            > >
                            > > Unfortunately, most of the other pictures I can find are of later Edo
                            > > period kataginu, but I've seen something in between.
                            >
                            > http://wodefordhall.com/iikataginuback.jpg shows Ii-dono with his
                            > kataginu "pleated" and held in place by his obi before the hakama went
                            > on over it.
                            >
                            > Saionji no Hanae
                            > West Kingdom
                            >
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