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Re: [SCA-JML] Re: A question (How to read blue)

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  • Barbara Nostrand
    Noble Cousins! Baron Edward is indeed correct about the WO formation. BAD SOLVEIG! You didn t look it up! *SIGH* The -i- is a bit more complicated in terms of
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 11, 2000
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      Noble Cousins!

      Baron Edward is indeed correct about the WO formation.
      BAD SOLVEIG! You didn't look it up! *SIGH* The -i- is
      a bit more complicated in terms of Japanese female names
      of the Nara and Heian periods. Essentially, we have quite
      a few names written in Kanji and quite a few written in
      kana as well. During the classical period, -me was a common
      final constructor in female hames while -ko was originally
      a constructor found in masculine names. Later on, -ko
      formations began to be found with female names as well
      although -me formations persisted during the Heian period.

      I have two easy examples of -blue- in names. Unforutnately,
      they are both monastic style names. (At least the ones in
      the kogojiten that I just whipped out are.)

      The -i- business is actually an interesting question. According
      to Kodansha Kogojiten, in antiquity, "awo" was a meishi (noun).
      Thus, there would not be an inflected -i following "Awo". Consequently,
      polite old forms are likely to be such things as Awome or Awohime.
      Later, you might encounter forms such as Awoko.

      Even if "Awo" were a keiyoushi (adjective), there would not be
      an -i inflection in bungo. Ref. Kokugo Kokubungaku Techou,
      Shogakukan, 1990.

      There is a very good history of Japanese female names.
      Ref. Tsunoda Bunei. _Nihon Joseimei_ (3 vol.) 1980-1988.
      Unfortunately, I do not recall running across an instance
      of blue in it with attached furigana so that the reading
      could be reliably ascertained. However, other feminine
      colour names are Murasaki and Midori which are clearly
      nominal.

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

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    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... Well, the thing is, it s really a pun. The *name* Aoi, as you probably know, is invariably written with the kanji for the hollyhock, not the color blue.
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 11, 2000
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        Barbara Nostrand wrote:

        >
        > I have two easy examples of -blue- in names. Unforutnately,
        > they are both monastic style names. (At least the ones in
        > the kogojiten that I just whipped out are.)

        Well, the thing is, it's really a pun. The *name* Aoi, as you probably
        know, is invariably written with the kanji for the hollyhock, not the color
        blue. And, to make things more perverse, in bungo that's written A FU HI.
        Go figure. <G>

        >
        > The -i- business is actually an interesting question. According
        > to Kodansha Kogojiten, in antiquity, "awo" was a meishi (noun).
        > Thus, there would not be an inflected -i following "Awo". Consequently,
        > polite old forms are likely to be such things as Awome or Awohime.
        > Later, you might encounter forms such as Awoko.

        It's called "onbin", an elision of the "k" in "aoki".

        Effingham
      • Barbara Nostrand
        Baron Edward! Cross-linguistic stuff can give pretty humorous results. A FU HI sounds a lot like Oh Fooey don t you think? Honestly though. After all of this
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 12, 2000
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          Baron Edward!

          Cross-linguistic stuff can give pretty humorous results. A FU HI
          sounds a lot like Oh Fooey don't you think?

          Honestly though. After all of this "blue" stuff, I've not really
          considered other obvious origins. Homonyms are an enduring form
          of Japanese humor, but I can loose track of things easily when
          stuff is in translation without nice crisp kanji there reminding
          me of what is going on.

          You are of course correct about Aoi (the plant) being a jinmei.
          It is clearly noted as such in my pocket kanwajiten. My Kogojiten
          notes that written that way, Afuhi is a character in Genji
          Monogatari. She is the daughter of the Dajodaijin (or some
          such muckity muck), &c.

          Unfortunately, I am not particularly up on Genji Monogatari.
          Consequently, I must profusely appologize for writing her
          name incorrectly on a scroll that I wrote for her. I generally
          have great difficulty finding out the prefered way for writing
          names for people. Generally speaking the Tyger Clerk of the
          Signet does not know and generally does not know anyone who
          I can ask. So I generally have to guess.

          BAD SOLVEIG! No bisquet.

          Your Humble Servant
          Solveig Throndardottir
          Amateur Scholar


          >Barbara Nostrand wrote:
          >
          >>
          >> I have two easy examples of -blue- in names. Unforutnately,
          >> they are both monastic style names. (At least the ones in
          >> the kogojiten that I just whipped out are.)
          >
          >Well, the thing is, it's really a pun. The *name* Aoi, as you probably
          >know, is invariably written with the kanji for the hollyhock, not the color
          >blue. And, to make things more perverse, in bungo that's written A FU HI.
          >Go figure. <G>
          >
          >>
          >> The -i- business is actually an interesting question. According
          >> to Kodansha Kogojiten, in antiquity, "awo" was a meishi (noun).
          >> Thus, there would not be an inflected -i following "Awo". Consequently,
          >> polite old forms are likely to be such things as Awome or Awohime.
          >> Later, you might encounter forms such as Awoko.
          >
          >It's called "onbin", an elision of the "k" in "aoki".
          >
          >Effingham
          >
          >
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          | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
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        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... But it *is* pronounced Aoi. ... Sadaijin, Minister of the Left. She s also To-no-Chujo s sister. Lord, but I m looking forward to Royall finishing
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 12, 2000
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            Barbara Nostrand wrote:

            >
            > You are of course correct about Aoi (the plant) being a jinmei.
            > It is clearly noted as such in my pocket kanwajiten. My Kogojiten
            > notes that written that way, Afuhi

            But it *is* pronounced "Aoi." <G>

            > is a character in Genji
            > Monogatari. She is the daughter of the Dajodaijin (or some
            > such muckity muck), &c.

            Sadaijin, Minister of the Left. She's also To-no-Chujo's sister.

            Lord, but I'm looking forward to Royall finishing his translation of Genji.
            Seidensticker's is so clunky, and Whaley's isn't Murasaki's. The original is
            just such a difficult read.

            >
            > Unfortunately, I am not particularly up on Genji Monogatari.
            > Consequently, I must profusely appologize for writing her
            > name incorrectly on a scroll that I wrote for her.

            That's it. You're fired. <G>

            Effingham
          • Barbara Nostrand
            Noble Cousins! ... What the is most likely about is the common Japanese practice of actually reading the stuff as if it were modern Japanese. Your
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 12, 2000
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              Noble Cousins!

              >But it *is* pronounced "Aoi." <G>

              What the <grin> is most likely about is the common Japanese
              practice of actually reading the stuff as if it were modern
              Japanese.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

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              | Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
              | de Moivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
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            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... True; but until we have any evidence to the contrary, that s how it works. The orthography is just odd. Like cough is koff but hiccough is hikkup .
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 12, 2000
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                Barbara Nostrand wrote:

                > Noble Cousins!
                >
                > >But it *is* pronounced "Aoi." <G>
                >
                > What the <grin> is most likely about is the common Japanese
                > practice of actually reading the stuff as if it were modern
                > Japanese.

                True; but until we have any evidence to the contrary, that's how it works.
                The orthography is just odd. Like cough is "koff" but hiccough is "hikkup".
                Spelling isn't always a sign of pronunciation, even in a syllabary.

                For example, the onbin that produces "-a u" as the end of an adjective
                looks like it should be two sounds ("mora" or syllables), but in fact is
                read as a single mora, "-o", as evidenced from poetry where it fills a line
                count to seven (or five) syllables rather than eight or six.

                Most scholars -- other than those who actually focus on vowel and consonant
                shifts and who try to recreate pre-modern Japanese sound -- read them in a
                more "modern" way. KEFU is not "ke-fu", it's "kyou", and "SHIU" isn't
                "shi-u" but "shu". The common verb ending "fu" is just "u", so the verb
                isn't "omofu, but "omou."

                As to what they *really* said... we just don't know.

                There is occasional speculation. For example, the word "aware" (written in
                old orthography as "a-ha-re"), which is *really* hard to translate, but
                means something like "pity/pathos/sentiment/feeling/???" is believed to
                have originally -- WAY back -- been onomatopoeia, and something akin to a
                sigh, in which case -- at least to a Western/English speaker, "aha..."
                sounds more likely as a pronunciation. But then again, one can *also* sigh
                with a sound more like "aw..." so, again... who knows?

                Effingham
              • Aoi
                ... (written in ... but ... believed to ... akin to a ... speaker, aha... ... *also* sigh ... Dear, dear Effy... You re thinking too hard. =) Aoi
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 17, 2000
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                  > As to what they *really* said... we just don't know.
                  >
                  > There is occasional speculation. For example, the word "aware"
                  (written in
                  > old orthography as "a-ha-re"), which is *really* hard to translate,
                  but
                  > means something like "pity/pathos/sentiment/feeling/???" is
                  believed to
                  > have originally -- WAY back -- been onomatopoeia, and something
                  akin to a
                  > sigh, in which case -- at least to a Western/English
                  speaker, "aha..."
                  > sounds more likely as a pronunciation. But then again, one can
                  *also* sigh
                  > with a sound more like "aw..." so, again... who knows?
                  >
                  > Effingham

                  Dear, dear Effy... You're thinking too hard. =)

                  Aoi
                • Anthony J. Bryant
                  ... Wouldn t be the first time, my love. I ve occasionally overthought an issue and totally missed the point of the big picture. sigh
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 17, 2000
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                    Aoi wrote:

                    >
                    > Dear, dear Effy... You're thinking too hard. =)

                    Wouldn't be the first time, my love. I've occasionally overthought an issue
                    and totally missed the point of the big picture. >sigh<.

                    Edweird
                  • Kass McGann
                    ... Wouldn t be the first time, my love. I ve occasionally overthought an issue and totally missed the point of the big picture. sigh
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 17, 2000
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                      Aoi wrote:

                      >
                      > Dear, dear Effy...  You're thinking too hard.  =)

                      Wouldn't be the first time, my love. I've occasionally overthought an issue
                      and totally missed the point of the big picture. >sigh<.
                      >>>>
                      As long as you learned from it, love...
                    • Anthony J. Bryant
                      ... Well, that is still left to be seen. Edward
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 17, 2000
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                        Kass McGann wrote:

                        >
                        > > Wouldn't be the first time, my love. I've
                        > >occasionally overthought an issue and totally
                        > >sigh<.>missed the point of the big picture.
                        >
                        > >>>As long as you learned from it, love...
                        >

                        Well, that is still left to be seen. <G>

                        Edward
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