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Re: [SCA-JML] terms of address

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  • Anthony J. Bryant
    ... You couldn t call her Walnut Grove anything. She s not the daimyo of Walnut Grove. She s only *from* there. By default, you d have to call her
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 1, 2003
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      starscrossing wrote:

      >
      > To use my dear friend (and mundanely a distant cousine of mine) known
      > in the society as Lady Anne of Walnut Grove, should she be:
      >
      > Walnut Grove-dono
      > Walnut Grove-sama
      > Anne-Sama or Anne-dono
      >

      You couldn't call her "Walnut Grove" anything. She's not the daimyo of Walnut Grove. She's only *from* there. By
      default, you'd have to call her "Anne-sama" or "Anne-dono."

      >
      > My gut instinct is Anne-sama may not be the most appropriate by the
      > standards of the Japanese, but it fits both my relationship to Lady
      > Anne and the situations I am most likely to address her (informal
      > situations, as opposed to formal courtly ones).
      >

      What's wrong with "Lady Anne"? <G>

      >
      > Also, assuming that high mucky-mucky brass hat of indistinct sort
      > walks in the door (as has been want to happen in the kitchen, my
      > usual place of service) and I know not this most excellent
      > individual, save as Naninani-no-kami, what is the safest form of
      > address (as in a My Lord/My Lady equivalant)?

      When in doubt, if he's a prince or a king or the local baron, "Ue-sama" is safe.

      If you're not armigerous, you could call anyone in a brass hat "Danna-sama" (which is the closest thing to a generic
      "sir" the Japanese got).

      Effingham
    • starscrossing
      Thank you very much for the advice. I appreciate it greatly. This is one of those details that I find very important but very confusing because of the way
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 2, 2003
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        Thank you very much for the advice. I appreciate it greatly. This is
        one of those details that I find very important but very confusing
        because of the way locative bynames work out in the society. On top
        of that, we're all supposed to be nobility in the first place, which
        makes it even more confusing, especially when you take into account
        the way the Society hands out titles and such compared to real life.
        Teaching aspects aside, there's definantly a game to the Society and
        one of the charm of going to events is seeing people in persona.

        Which brings us to:

        > What's wrong with "Lady Anne"? <G>

        Oh, the list I could make about what's wrong with Lady Anne! (just
        kidding) ;) To answer the question you were really asking (though in
        jest)

        I suppose there's nothing "wrong" with "Lady Anne," if that's how a
        person cares to play. For myself, it's an affectation for the purpose
        of persona. For me, it's not an "SCA" thing so much as it's an acting
        thing. (hey, if Will Smith can play James West, I can certainly be a
        Japanese woman. :grins: the wig is in the mail - or something like
        that.) It seems to me the minimum effort beyond reasonable attempt at
        period clothing. The fifteen yards or so of kumehimo that I need to
        make to make the one Courtier's belt I saw on the Japanese Costume
        Archive is beyond "minimum effort," but that's another story.

        Let me take it from another tack. How many times have you heard a
        native Spanish speaker call someone "Señor" or "Señora" instead of
        Mister or Ma'am, or a native French speaker refer to someone as
        Monsieur or Madame? Or even, for that matter, Herr and Frau from a
        native German speaker?

        I keep remembering a story I heard years and years ago from an
        aquaintance of the family, Nariko Hess. She told about how her family
        kept trying to suppress giggles as she introduced her husband to be
        to them as Hesso-san, which as she explained, is basically Mr.
        Bellybutton in Japanese. Why didn't she introduce him as "Mr. Hess"
        when everyone in her family speaks English, instead of softening his
        name and giving him a Japanese honorific? I'm not sure, but my first
        thought would be because Japanese is her native language and that's
        just how you do things in Japanese.

        It just seems more natural to me that a Japanese person would
        transfer their titles to the European people, just like Spanish
        speakers use their native titles, etc. There are people who know the
        difference around, so I'd like it to be as right as possible given
        the limitations of the languages involved and the SCA itself.

        Thank you again.

        Sabelina
      • Ii Saburou
        ... Walnut Grove-dono or Anne-hime would probably be the most appropriate. See http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/Miscellany/Miscellany.html and look at Modes of
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 2, 2003
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          On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, starscrossing wrote:

          > Walnut Grove-dono
          > Walnut Grove-sama
          > Anne-Sama or Anne-dono

          Walnut Grove-dono or Anne-hime would probably be the most appropriate.

          See http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/Miscellany/Miscellany.html and look at
          'Modes of Address'.

          > Also, assuming that high mucky-mucky brass hat of indistinct sort
          > walks in the door (as has been want to happen in the kitchen, my
          > usual place of service) and I know not this most excellent
          > individual, save as Naninani-no-kami, what is the safest form of
          > address (as in a My Lord/My Lady equivalant)?

          Family Name + dono

          -Ii
        • Ii Saburou
          Okay, listen to Hiraizumi-dono. He knows much more than I. -Ii
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 2, 2003
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            Okay, listen to Hiraizumi-dono. He knows much more than I.

            -Ii

            On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Anthony J. Bryant wrote:

            > starscrossing wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > To use my dear friend (and mundanely a distant cousine of mine) known
            > > in the society as Lady Anne of Walnut Grove, should she be:
            > >
            > > Walnut Grove-dono
            > > Walnut Grove-sama
            > > Anne-Sama or Anne-dono
            > >
            >
            > You couldn't call her "Walnut Grove" anything. She's not the daimyo of Walnut Grove. She's only *from* there. By
            > default, you'd have to call her "Anne-sama" or "Anne-dono."
            >
            > >
            > > My gut instinct is Anne-sama may not be the most appropriate by the
            > > standards of the Japanese, but it fits both my relationship to Lady
            > > Anne and the situations I am most likely to address her (informal
            > > situations, as opposed to formal courtly ones).
            > >
            >
            > What's wrong with "Lady Anne"? <G>
            >
            > >
            > > Also, assuming that high mucky-mucky brass hat of indistinct sort
            > > walks in the door (as has been want to happen in the kitchen, my
            > > usual place of service) and I know not this most excellent
            > > individual, save as Naninani-no-kami, what is the safest form of
            > > address (as in a My Lord/My Lady equivalant)?
            >
            > When in doubt, if he's a prince or a king or the local baron, "Ue-sama" is safe.
            >
            > If you're not armigerous, you could call anyone in a brass hat "Danna-sama" (which is the closest thing to a generic
            > "sir" the Japanese got).
            >
            > Effingham
            >
            >
            >
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            >
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            >
            >
          • autumnriver
            ... known ... *blinks* Hey! Another Iowegian! From Deodar, no less! Hi, Sabelina! *waves* I remember you came up here for archery practice once. Good to
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 2, 2003
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              --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "starscrossing" <starscrossing@y...>
              wrote:
              > To use my dear friend (and mundanely a distant cousine of mine)
              known
              > in the society as Lady Anne of Walnut Grove, should she be:

              *blinks* Hey! Another Iowegian! From Deodar, no less!

              Hi, Sabelina! *waves* I remember you came up here for archery
              practice once. Good to see you.

              Here's to more Japanese culture in Calontir! *cheers*

              --Tace of Foxele (Souma Tae)
              Riverwatch, Calontir
            • Anthony J. Bryant
              ... LOL! ... On TV and in movies, all the time. It s how directors/actors remind the audience that the speakers are foreign. But in point of fact, in real
              Message 6 of 9 , Aug 2, 2003
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                starscrossing wrote:

                >
                > Which brings us to:
                >
                > > What's wrong with "Lady Anne"? <G>
                >
                > Oh, the list I could make about what's wrong with Lady Anne! (just
                > kidding) ;) To answer the question you were really asking (though in
                > jest)
                >

                LOL!

                >
                > I suppose there's nothing "wrong" with "Lady Anne," if that's how a
                > person cares to play. For myself, it's an affectation for the purpose
                > of persona. For me, it's not an "SCA" thing so much as it's an acting
                > thing. (hey, if Will Smith can play James West, I can certainly be a
                > Japanese woman. :grins: the wig is in the mail - or something like
                > that.) It seems to me the minimum effort beyond reasonable attempt at
                > period clothing. The fifteen yards or so of kumehimo that I need to
                > make to make the one Courtier's belt I saw on the Japanese Costume
                > Archive is beyond "minimum effort," but that's another story.
                >
                > Let me take it from another tack. How many times have you heard a
                > native Spanish speaker call someone "Seor" or "Seora" instead of
                > Mister or Ma'am, or a native French speaker refer to someone as
                > Monsieur or Madame? Or even, for that matter, Herr and Frau from a
                > native German speaker?
                >

                On TV and in movies, all the time. It's how directors/actors "remind" the audience that the speakers are foreign. But
                in point of fact, in real life, I have never personally encountered it. One of the first things people in
                conversation classes learn is how to speak to (and address) people in the target language. I would never call a
                Japanese guy "Mr. Takahashi." I would call him "Takahashi-san." By the reasoning above, I must be Japanese. <G>

                If I'm speaking to a Frenchman or a German *in their language* I would definitely use language-appropriate address
                terms. I would not say "Miss Shultz, wo bist der WC?" nor would I say "Mister LaFleur, je n'aime pas des escargots."
                Likewise, if I'm addressing them in *English*, I would either use the English language address for consistency, or as
                a sign of politeness *their own*.

                Either way, the typical form of address seems to be -- to me, any way -- geared toward the language of the target
                being addressed, not the language of the speaker.

                >
                > I keep remembering a story I heard years and years ago from an
                > aquaintance of the family, Nariko Hess. She told about how her family
                > kept trying to suppress giggles as she introduced her husband to be
                > to them as Hesso-san, which as she explained, is basically Mr.
                > Bellybutton in Japanese. Why didn't she introduce him as "Mr. Hess"
                > when everyone in her family speaks English, instead of softening his
                > name and giving him a Japanese honorific? I'm not sure, but my first
                > thought would be because Japanese is her native language and that's
                > just how you do things in Japanese.
                >

                There's no honorific there (unless you mean "san"). Japanese is an "open syllable" language and doesn't have terminal
                consonants (except for "n", which is arguably a mutation of "mu" with a loss of strength of the vowel). A native
                Japanese can't *say* "Hess" without lots of practice. It becomes "Hessu" (U being the standard weak vowel) and still
                sounds a lot like "hesso".

                The addition of "-san" has nothing to do with the sound or the effect. "Mr. Hessu/o" sounds just as silly to a
                Japanese as "Hesso/u-san."


                Effingham
              • starscrossing
                Baron Effingham, Thank you again for your observations and input. You ve raised several questions for me and certainly given me quite a bit of food for
                Message 7 of 9 , Aug 2, 2003
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                  Baron Effingham,

                  Thank you again for your observations and input. You've raised
                  several questions for me and certainly given me quite a bit of food
                  for thought. :) I appreciate that greatly.

                  --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...> >
                  On TV and in movies, all the time. It's how directors/actors "remind"
                  the audience that the speakers are foreign. But
                  > in point of fact, in real life, I have never personally encountered
                  it. One of the first things people in
                  > conversation classes learn is how to speak to (and address) people
                  in the target language.

                  I have encountered it in real life. My family is fortunate enough,
                  despite our wretched location, to have both friends and family who
                  come from other cultures and other countries. It took me a good
                  number of years to realize that not everyone in Iowa has New York
                  Jewish friends to teach them Yiddish, or Great Grandfathers who spoke
                  German, or ASL speaking cousins, or Swedish cousins who still come to
                  visit from the Old Country, or Mexican or Korean Aunts, or Italian
                  friends, or French friends, or even Mexican friends. I thought I was
                  normal, and found out I was really very unusual and lucky. I've found
                  out since that Iowa, apparently, is the center of the loaf of Wonder
                  Bread - all white and about the same texture.

                  Although the most common way to learn another language these days is
                  in a formal language class, not everyone learns another language in a
                  formal language class. Some just learn from other native speakers. I
                  doubt there were many formal language classes in period. From what
                  I've seen of the linguistic teaching materials from the Victorian
                  Era, conversational language as we understand it today wasn't exactly
                  the method taught then, or even earlier. For example, I learned most
                  of my Spanish from my Tia, and while I learned family forms of
                  address early on, I didn't learn Señior/Señiora/Señiorita until much
                  later. (an oversight on my Tia's part, I think. She never expected me
                  to use Spanish other than with her.)

                  I've got two deaf cousins, and while I can hold up my end of most
                  conversations with them, I'd end up finger spelling "Mister"
                  or "Miss" because those aren't signs I've ever had to use with them.
                  Signs in sign language are the foreign words, finger spelling is like
                  using English to get your point across.

                  Is your suggestion that the movie convention of inserting foreign
                  words and titles into conversation has no basis in real life, or that
                  it could be seen as demeaning to the cultural group being portrayed?
                  Or am I misenterpreting the intent of the statement and is there no
                  suggestion at all, just a statement that you've never personally seen
                  the phenomenon? All three are worthwhile things to explore in the
                  persuit of accuracy and persona.

                  If it's not common, then we likely shouldn't do it based on a desire
                  for accuracy.

                  If it's demeaning, then we absolutely shouldn't do it out of respect
                  for the culture.

                  If it is common, but you, as a PhD and with letters in a foreign
                  history, haven't seen it, then it may be because it's simply
                  something not seen in academia, but more common to the less educated
                  classes. If so, then it's still likely not appropriate for most
                  Society persona, most portray the nobility that the SCA charter
                  assumes us all to be, but it may be appropriate to less educated or
                  lower class persona.

                  Any of those, then, still leave questions on how to portray persona
                  in a way that consistantly reminds other people that any of us
                  (French, German, Norman, Japanese or Tuchuk [though I wonder about
                  them. often. ;)]) are actually people from a culture very different
                  than the one common to the modern world, particularly the Modern USA.
                  For me, it's about the history, but the element of the SCA that's
                  attractive to me is getting inside the head of that historic person
                  and examining both the modern and the historic world from that
                  person's mindset.

                  There are huge differences between the Modern USA and the Historic
                  World, let alone the Historic Japanese World. That's obvious just
                  reading the archives: As I understand it, Ronin and Ninja are both
                  pretty much "bad things" in the eyes of the Japanese, but they
                  contain elements that appeal to our culture, the same culture that
                  created and now idealizes the rugged individualism of the Old West.
                  (Why do I think there's a paper in there somewhere?) Learning about
                  those differences is one of the most interesting things we do, IMHO.

                  > There's no honorific there (unless you mean "san"). Japanese is
                  an "open syllable" language and doesn't have terminal
                  > consonants (except for "n", which is arguably a mutation of "mu"
                  with a loss of strength of the vowel). A native
                  > Japanese can't *say* "Hess" without lots of practice. It
                  becomes "Hessu" (U being the standard weak vowel) and still
                  > sounds a lot like "hesso".
                  >
                  > The addition of "-san" has nothing to do with the sound or the
                  effect. "Mr. Hessu/o" sounds just as silly to a
                  > Japanese as "Hesso/u-san."

                  I understand the linguistics involved, to a degree. It's similar to
                  the reason that many native Spanish speakers place an "e" sound at
                  the beginning of English words that begin with "S": in Espania, "s"
                  is never a beginning letter. If it's at the beginning of a word, it's
                  prefaced with an "e" sound - thus my Aunt's brother calling me
                  Esabrina instead of Sabrina. I also understand "san" or "sama" to be
                  the equivalant of the honorifics Mister or Miss/Mistress/Ms. which is
                  inaccurate, to be sure, but as close as we've got in English to what
                  I understand as the intent - polite forms of address. For example,
                  members of my family down south call me Miss Sabrina. Same idea, as I
                  understand it.

                  The example, however, was sited more as a case of fitting the
                  European name to the language at hand, as opposed to adapting the
                  form of address to the name in question. We do the same thing all the
                  time. As an English speaking person when I introduce my French
                  aquaintance Mark Boucher in English, I introduce him as Mr. Boucher.
                  If I introduced him in (gawd-awful) French, I'd call him Monsieur
                  Boucher. If it were a language I were less familiar with the forms of
                  address, for example. . . I can't remember a thing of the Russian I
                  took, so if I were forced to function in (worse than my French)
                  Russian, I'd probably say he was called Mr. Boucher or Monsieur
                  Boucher (and then quickly beg off onto Spanish or English for the
                  rest of the conversation.)

                  It does beg the question, however, what makes a persona? Is it just
                  the clothes and the attitude? If so, then what purpose do pages and
                  pages of information about what kinds of titles to use in other
                  languages (not just Japanese, mind you, but the French, Spanish,
                  Russian and German pages, too) serve?

                  If persona is attitude and clothes and if we're all speaking English,
                  why should we call anyone by any title other than ones found in
                  English? Is it to help others see the individual in persona? Does it
                  serve any purpose at all? If not, then I'd be the first to happilly
                  say let's just use English titles since we're speaking English and
                  emphasize culture in the way we act.

                  It would make it very simple for everyone involved.

                  If my most indulgent and excellent source of information is Baron
                  Effingham in his English persona he'd be Baron Hiraizumi (assuming I
                  picked the right name) when wearing his Japanese garb and using his
                  Japanese persona. All kings would be His/Her Majesty or King Thus-and-
                  so and dukes would be His Grace or Duke Thus-and-so, etc, no matter
                  what his or her nationality. And Lady Anne would be Lady Anne and the
                  whole question would be moot - though the translations would still be
                  interesting just to help point out the stratification of Japanese
                  society, or the similarities between German and French nobility.

                  That would seem to be the Most Logical Thing, since very few of are
                  going to actually be speaking Japanese at events anyway, though I
                  still like the idea of calling Lady Anne Anne-sama or Anne-dono. It
                  appeals to me in a very non-period Anime sort of way. :insert wicked
                  evil grin: There's something to be said for that, too.

                  Sabelina
                • Solveig
                  Noble Cousins! Greetings from Solveig! I am forgetting the provenance of Walnut Grove. Walnut grove could possibly be a rather nice toponymic family name. --
                  Message 8 of 9 , Aug 2, 2003
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                    Noble Cousins!

                    Greetings from Solveig! I am forgetting the provenance of Walnut Grove.
                    Walnut grove could possibly be a rather nice toponymic family name.
                    --

                    Your Humble Servant
                    Solveig Throndardottir
                    Amateur Scholar

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