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[SCA-JML] Re: Post period

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  • akimoya
    ... Personally, I ve never really agreed with the 1600 cut off date - I ve always thought that it should be *earlier*, not later. It has always been my
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
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      On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 shubnigurath@... wrote:

      > To that end I would say that, anathema though it may be to many
      > good gentles (yeah, yeah- I know how you feel about this one, Baron
      > Master Edward-tono), that the 1600 doesn't apply as well to Japan as it
      > does to European cultures, since the Japanese fuedal period ended only
      > in 1860ish. I would propose a more fluid standard in keeping with the
      > purpose of the SCA, rather than trying to impose hard-and-fast rules.
      > In other words, cut off Japan just before the Meiji restoration, but
      > cut off Europe at 1600, and apply other dates to other cultures as
      > appropriate. Oh, and ixnay on the american colonist thing.

      Personally, I've never really agreed with the 1600 cut off date - I've
      always thought that it should be *earlier*, not later. It has always been
      my opinion that the SCA should be recreating the Middle Ages only, not the
      Renaissance as well. This might mean different cut off dates for
      different countries, as the rationale for the 1600 cut off is that the
      Renassaince took over a hundred years to spread from Italy to England.

      As for the extending the time frime to encompass the Edo period, I'd
      hardly call it "feudal" or "medieval". It was essentially a dictatorship,
      with almost every action carved in stone. No medieval European King that
      I can think of had so much control over his subjects, or any dynasty that
      lasted so long, with so much power. I would say 1600 is the perfect time
      to cut off Japanese personae - if they would be allowed to play in the SCA
      at all.

      Akimoya
      Ealdormere
    • Anthony J. Bryant
      ... The SCA is, by her charter, an organization geared towards the Western Middle Ages. By all acounts, by 1600, the Middle Ages were over. As was a big chunk
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
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        shubnigurath@... wrote:

        > What, exactly, is the purpose of the 1600 cut off date in the SCA?

        The SCA is, by her charter, an organization geared towards the Western
        Middle Ages. By all acounts, by 1600, the Middle Ages were over. As was a
        big chunk even of the renaissance. If you want to do the middle ages, a
        1450s cutoff would make more sense.

        >
        > I would submit that 1600 is roughly the end of the age of chivalry (if
        > you could call it that...). Since there had to be a cut off somewhere,
        > that was as good as any. The careful observer will note that the
        > americas had been colonized by this time, yet it is generally not
        > accepted to go as a very early American colonist, because that falls
        > somewhat out of the scope of what the SCA is trying to do, which is, in
        > effect, to recreate a fuedal (rather than colonial) period.
        > To that end I would say that, anathema though it may be to many
        > good gentles (yeah, yeah- I know how you feel about this one, Baron
        > Master Edward-tono), that the 1600 doesn't apply as well to Japan as it
        > does to European cultures, since the Japanese fuedal period ended only
        > in 1860ish. I would propose a more fluid standard in keeping with the
        > purpose of the SCA, rather than trying to impose hard-and-fast rules.
        > In other words, cut off Japan just before the Meiji restoration, but
        > cut off Europe at 1600, and apply other dates to other cultures as
        > appropriate. Oh, and ixnay on the american colonist thing.

        Actually, the 1600 date makes more sense with us that the Europeans. THere
        is a solid reason, a single event, for a 1600 cutoff, while there is
        nothing in Europe beyond 1600 being a nice, fat, round number.

        In Japan, we have the Battle of Sekigahara in October, in which the old
        regime is ousted and the Tokugawa hegemony secured. The Tokugawa government
        created a japan that had very little in common with the Japan of only a few
        decades earlier. They created a solid, centralized federal state. One
        professor described it rather oxymoronically as a "centralized, feudal
        state."

        Just because the Edo Period was not "modernized" in the western sense, it
        wasn't medieval. Even the Japanese historians refer to it as the "Recent
        Period" (kinsei) -- they count the medieval period (chuusei) as 1181-1600.

        > I'm sure that this will arouse the ire of many of the members of
        > this group. I welcome any discourse on this topic. If you feel the
        > need to flame me, my e-mail is shubnigurath@....

        Nah, no need for flame. I'll just make your armour so that it pinches in a
        bad place when you sit. <G>

        Effingham
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... Because that s not the SCA game. If you want to recreate Edo Japan, we can always start a new group, but the SCA is geared at Medieval Europe. We re
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
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          Jordan Malokofsky wrote:

          > Makes sense to me. The SCA recreates the European middle ages and
          > happens to define that as pre-1600 (which fits). Seeing as how
          > several groups of people within the SCA do non-European personae,
          > different time periods should be acceptable. We don't do European, so
          > why should we limit our time period according to it?

          Because that's not the SCA game. If you want to recreate Edo Japan, we can
          always start a new group, but the SCA is geared at Medieval Europe. We're
          visitors, we don't control the game. It's the height of rudeness to be a
          guest in someone's house and then tell them how they should behave.

          > I am, unfortunately, not that familiar with the history of the Edo
          > period, but from all I've heard it could be considered within period
          > for Japanese personae.

          Depends on how you define period for Jp personae. Period for the SCA is a
          definite cutoff at 1600, so that makes it academic. If, OTOH, you mean
          feudal, yes, it's feudal, but the Japanese society and government of 1500
          and 1700 were very different. The clothing was different, the mores were
          different, the economy was different, the social scene was different, the
          military was different..

          No, Japan after 1600 was a different world. Don't confuse "not
          westerized/democratized" with "medieval."

          > However, I don't think you'll get any kind of
          > official acknowledgement for this idea. It would be too complicated
          > to have to keep track of for all the different cultures. I'd just
          > quitely do things "post-period" that were still relevant to medieval
          > recreation and not use any of it in documentation cases (such as A&S
          > competitions).

          Sorry, to my mind, that's cheating. You're going behind the back of the
          rules. I do not do post period whenever I can help it, and I don't suborn
          it, either.

          > There may be some people who will draw the line at 1600 reguardless,
          > but I agree that, going with the spirit of medieval recreation, it
          > should be OK to use pre-Meiji history as "period" for Japanese
          > personae.

          Not in the SCA it isn't.


          Effingham
        • Barbara Nostrand
          Noble Cousins! ... Which Japanese history books have you been reading? Most Japanese history books have the Japanese middle ages ending either with Hideyoshi
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
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            Noble Cousins!

            >> To that end I would say that, anathema though it may be to many
            >> good gentles (yeah, yeah- I know how you feel about this one, Baron
            >> Master Edward-tono), that the 1600 doesn't apply as well to Japan as it
            >> does to European cultures, since the Japanese fuedal period ended only
            >> in 1860ish.

            Which Japanese history books have you been reading? Most Japanese
            history books have the Japanese middle ages ending either with
            Hideyoshi unifying Japan or in GASP at about 1600. The battle
            of Sekigahara occured in 1600 and there were the two battles of
            Osaka Castle. The Genroku period (if I recall my era names
            correctly) is generally considered to be post medieval.

            >>I would propose a more fluid standard in keeping with the
            >> purpose of the SCA, rather than trying to impose hard-and-fast rules.
            >> In other words, cut off Japan just before the Meiji restoration, but
            >> cut off Europe at 1600, and apply other dates to other cultures as
            >> appropriate. Oh, and ixnay on the american colonist thing.

            Why? This distinction does not make sense for EUROPE! The Spanish
            practiced patronage with gold mined from placer mines in the New
            World. The Spanish remained arguably medieval for quite some time
            and (as I recall) the Russians only freed their serfs in the
            19th century. Some argue that Spanish redistribution of American
            gold brought about the enclosure act and the forced urbanization
            of England and the conversion of the English economy to an
            industrial economy. This sort of thing was not at all universal
            throughout Europe.

            In short. We can make a BETTER case for the middle ages ending in
            Japan at 1600 than can for Europe.

            Your Humble Servant
            Solveig Throndardottir
            Amateur Scholar

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