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[SCA-JML] Re: Post period

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  • Joshua Badgley
    The problem with moving the SCA cut-off date for non-European personae(?) is that, according to SCA guidelines, any non-European is said to be visiting, and
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
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      The problem with moving the SCA cut-off date for non-European
      personae(?) is that, according to SCA guidelines, any non-European is said
      to be 'visiting,' and so must still conform to the 1600 date.

      If, however, a subset of people from the SCA decide that they also want to
      recreate a period outside the strict guidelines, there is nothing to
      prevent that. If you and your friends want to recreate Edo Japan, go
      right ahead. However, they would not have been visiting European courts,
      and so are not appropriate for a strict SCA event.

      As to Edo: The Edo period started with the Tokugawa Shogunate, when
      Hideyoshi Toyotomi died and Ieyasu Tokugawa became Shogun, which all
      happened at the turn of the century. As such, all of the Edo period is
      post-1600 (and then ends in 1868, with the Meiji, or 'Enlightened' Era).

      Please correct any mistakes I have made; it is late and I fear my mind
      might be slipping.


      -Godric Logan
    • akimoya
      ... Personally, I ve never really agreed with the 1600 cut off date - I ve always thought that it should be *earlier*, not later. It has always been my
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
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        On Thu, 4 Nov 1999 shubnigurath@... wrote:

        > To that end I would say that, anathema though it may be to many
        > good gentles (yeah, yeah- I know how you feel about this one, Baron
        > Master Edward-tono), that the 1600 doesn't apply as well to Japan as it
        > does to European cultures, since the Japanese fuedal period ended only
        > in 1860ish. I would propose a more fluid standard in keeping with the
        > purpose of the SCA, rather than trying to impose hard-and-fast rules.
        > In other words, cut off Japan just before the Meiji restoration, but
        > cut off Europe at 1600, and apply other dates to other cultures as
        > appropriate. Oh, and ixnay on the american colonist thing.

        Personally, I've never really agreed with the 1600 cut off date - I've
        always thought that it should be *earlier*, not later. It has always been
        my opinion that the SCA should be recreating the Middle Ages only, not the
        Renaissance as well. This might mean different cut off dates for
        different countries, as the rationale for the 1600 cut off is that the
        Renassaince took over a hundred years to spread from Italy to England.

        As for the extending the time frime to encompass the Edo period, I'd
        hardly call it "feudal" or "medieval". It was essentially a dictatorship,
        with almost every action carved in stone. No medieval European King that
        I can think of had so much control over his subjects, or any dynasty that
        lasted so long, with so much power. I would say 1600 is the perfect time
        to cut off Japanese personae - if they would be allowed to play in the SCA
        at all.

        Akimoya
        Ealdormere
      • Anthony J. Bryant
        ... The SCA is, by her charter, an organization geared towards the Western Middle Ages. By all acounts, by 1600, the Middle Ages were over. As was a big chunk
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
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          shubnigurath@... wrote:

          > What, exactly, is the purpose of the 1600 cut off date in the SCA?

          The SCA is, by her charter, an organization geared towards the Western
          Middle Ages. By all acounts, by 1600, the Middle Ages were over. As was a
          big chunk even of the renaissance. If you want to do the middle ages, a
          1450s cutoff would make more sense.

          >
          > I would submit that 1600 is roughly the end of the age of chivalry (if
          > you could call it that...). Since there had to be a cut off somewhere,
          > that was as good as any. The careful observer will note that the
          > americas had been colonized by this time, yet it is generally not
          > accepted to go as a very early American colonist, because that falls
          > somewhat out of the scope of what the SCA is trying to do, which is, in
          > effect, to recreate a fuedal (rather than colonial) period.
          > To that end I would say that, anathema though it may be to many
          > good gentles (yeah, yeah- I know how you feel about this one, Baron
          > Master Edward-tono), that the 1600 doesn't apply as well to Japan as it
          > does to European cultures, since the Japanese fuedal period ended only
          > in 1860ish. I would propose a more fluid standard in keeping with the
          > purpose of the SCA, rather than trying to impose hard-and-fast rules.
          > In other words, cut off Japan just before the Meiji restoration, but
          > cut off Europe at 1600, and apply other dates to other cultures as
          > appropriate. Oh, and ixnay on the american colonist thing.

          Actually, the 1600 date makes more sense with us that the Europeans. THere
          is a solid reason, a single event, for a 1600 cutoff, while there is
          nothing in Europe beyond 1600 being a nice, fat, round number.

          In Japan, we have the Battle of Sekigahara in October, in which the old
          regime is ousted and the Tokugawa hegemony secured. The Tokugawa government
          created a japan that had very little in common with the Japan of only a few
          decades earlier. They created a solid, centralized federal state. One
          professor described it rather oxymoronically as a "centralized, feudal
          state."

          Just because the Edo Period was not "modernized" in the western sense, it
          wasn't medieval. Even the Japanese historians refer to it as the "Recent
          Period" (kinsei) -- they count the medieval period (chuusei) as 1181-1600.

          > I'm sure that this will arouse the ire of many of the members of
          > this group. I welcome any discourse on this topic. If you feel the
          > need to flame me, my e-mail is shubnigurath@....

          Nah, no need for flame. I'll just make your armour so that it pinches in a
          bad place when you sit. <G>

          Effingham
        • Anthony J. Bryant
          ... Because that s not the SCA game. If you want to recreate Edo Japan, we can always start a new group, but the SCA is geared at Medieval Europe. We re
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
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            Jordan Malokofsky wrote:

            > Makes sense to me. The SCA recreates the European middle ages and
            > happens to define that as pre-1600 (which fits). Seeing as how
            > several groups of people within the SCA do non-European personae,
            > different time periods should be acceptable. We don't do European, so
            > why should we limit our time period according to it?

            Because that's not the SCA game. If you want to recreate Edo Japan, we can
            always start a new group, but the SCA is geared at Medieval Europe. We're
            visitors, we don't control the game. It's the height of rudeness to be a
            guest in someone's house and then tell them how they should behave.

            > I am, unfortunately, not that familiar with the history of the Edo
            > period, but from all I've heard it could be considered within period
            > for Japanese personae.

            Depends on how you define period for Jp personae. Period for the SCA is a
            definite cutoff at 1600, so that makes it academic. If, OTOH, you mean
            feudal, yes, it's feudal, but the Japanese society and government of 1500
            and 1700 were very different. The clothing was different, the mores were
            different, the economy was different, the social scene was different, the
            military was different..

            No, Japan after 1600 was a different world. Don't confuse "not
            westerized/democratized" with "medieval."

            > However, I don't think you'll get any kind of
            > official acknowledgement for this idea. It would be too complicated
            > to have to keep track of for all the different cultures. I'd just
            > quitely do things "post-period" that were still relevant to medieval
            > recreation and not use any of it in documentation cases (such as A&S
            > competitions).

            Sorry, to my mind, that's cheating. You're going behind the back of the
            rules. I do not do post period whenever I can help it, and I don't suborn
            it, either.

            > There may be some people who will draw the line at 1600 reguardless,
            > but I agree that, going with the spirit of medieval recreation, it
            > should be OK to use pre-Meiji history as "period" for Japanese
            > personae.

            Not in the SCA it isn't.


            Effingham
          • Barbara Nostrand
            Noble Cousins! ... Which Japanese history books have you been reading? Most Japanese history books have the Japanese middle ages ending either with Hideyoshi
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 5, 1999
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              Noble Cousins!

              >> To that end I would say that, anathema though it may be to many
              >> good gentles (yeah, yeah- I know how you feel about this one, Baron
              >> Master Edward-tono), that the 1600 doesn't apply as well to Japan as it
              >> does to European cultures, since the Japanese fuedal period ended only
              >> in 1860ish.

              Which Japanese history books have you been reading? Most Japanese
              history books have the Japanese middle ages ending either with
              Hideyoshi unifying Japan or in GASP at about 1600. The battle
              of Sekigahara occured in 1600 and there were the two battles of
              Osaka Castle. The Genroku period (if I recall my era names
              correctly) is generally considered to be post medieval.

              >>I would propose a more fluid standard in keeping with the
              >> purpose of the SCA, rather than trying to impose hard-and-fast rules.
              >> In other words, cut off Japan just before the Meiji restoration, but
              >> cut off Europe at 1600, and apply other dates to other cultures as
              >> appropriate. Oh, and ixnay on the american colonist thing.

              Why? This distinction does not make sense for EUROPE! The Spanish
              practiced patronage with gold mined from placer mines in the New
              World. The Spanish remained arguably medieval for quite some time
              and (as I recall) the Russians only freed their serfs in the
              19th century. Some argue that Spanish redistribution of American
              gold brought about the enclosure act and the forced urbanization
              of England and the conversion of the English economy to an
              industrial economy. This sort of thing was not at all universal
              throughout Europe.

              In short. We can make a BETTER case for the middle ages ending in
              Japan at 1600 than can for Europe.

              Your Humble Servant
              Solveig Throndardottir
              Amateur Scholar

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