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8948Re: [SCA-JML] Re: Looking for suggestions for Kofun and Yayoi.

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  • Solveig
    Dec 23, 2002
      Baron Edward!

      >You're arguing a logical fallacy. Priest != king. Priest = priest.

      Maybe in the Byzantine Empire, but not necessarily everywhere else. In this
      context king = political leader. The question is whether or not the religious
      leader is also the political leader. The notion that these two jobs are unified
      is a pretty orthodox position to take with late Japanese pre-history. Besides,
      in the specific context of the Society, it really doesn't matter
      whether someone
      is claiming to be a Baron, a Bishop or an Abbot. All three are considered
      territorial and are not freely assumable.

      >Again, pish-tosh. This argument depends on the assumption that we're talking
      >about clericalism of substantial rank, and that's nowhere implied in Aine's
      >posts.

      Actually, it did seem to be pretty strongly implied. If he wants to be part of
      the inbe, then I don't have a problem as that was an entire guild with the
      requisite flunkies.

      >There's a big difference between a shrine priest, for example, and
      >the head priest of Ise;

      Doesn't matter. Further, I'm sure that you know that it doesn't matter. I know
      at least one person who is trying to arogate Arabic titles and is constantly
      drawing flack over it. It's fundamentally the same problem. If you
      want to claim
      rulership over more than your own little residential manor, then you tend to
      draw flack in the Society. If we were talking about English titles the
      discussion would probably have ended already.

      >there's also, it must be noted, a lot of "flunky"
      >priests at Ise in addition to the guji, but even then there's a huge status
      >leap between the head priest of a major shrine and a sovereign of a state
      >(regardless of whether that sovereign is imbued with priestly funtions).

      Yes. And current Ise practices are a long site removed from what the
      time period
      under discussion. We are talking about pre-imperial social
      organization you know.

      >But Solveig, you're the only one who's saying "priest/king." *I* certainly
      >have no problems with anyone wanting to portray an early Shinto or
      >shamanistic cleric.

      The devil is in the details. The proposal included lots of extra social
      relationships which placed this particular bit of recreation a long ways away
      from the local shaman. Even so, there are people out there who will object to
      being any sort of village headman.
      --

      Your Humble Servant
      Solveig Throndardottir
      Amateur Scholar

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