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24531Re: Sitting Seiza

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  • Marten
    Oct 10, 2008
      Ohayo Gozaimashita,

      Basically what he said below is what I have read about and been told by
      Stroud Sensei. Thus the oldest iaido forms are the Okuden Tachiwaza
      which are felt to have been part of the original Hayashizaki-ryu (with
      thee possible exception of the Itomagoi waza which are performed from
      seiza).

      These forms are shown here <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhH_tPEnHFU>
      and suetome alone is shown here
      <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmNKFZ21GEM> .

      Forms or kata are listed as follows
      <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mus%C5%8D_Shinden-ry%C5%AB#Okuden> :


      Tachi-waza

      1. Ikizure
      2. Tsure-dachi
      3. Somakuri (Continuous Attack)
      4. Sodome (Attack One After Another)
      5. Shinobu (Secret Attack)
      6. Yukichigai (Receive and redirect the opponent's attack)
      7. Sodesuri-gaeshi (Pushing Through the Crowd)
      8. Mon-iri (Entering Through the Gate)
      9. Kabezoi (By the Wall)
      10. Uke-nagashi
      11. Ryohi-hikitsure
      12. Oikake-giri
      13. Gishiki
      Having said that, I've been authoritatively told that you can start an
      iaido enbu with any form you want, as long as it's Mae
      <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b6MXeNJnkA> . [;)]

      Marten

      --- In sca-jml@yahoogroups.com, "JL Badgley" <tatsushu@...> wrote:
      >
      > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:48 PM, Rick Johnson rikjohnson@... wrote:
      > > I watched that video last night and wondered what Lord would allow
      anyone to sit in a ready-posture that would make it so easy for them to
      draw, rise and attack?
      > >
      >
      > I've been doing some study on this, and though some budo traditions
      > seem to conflict, the following is based largely on pictorial evidence
      > combined with some written accounts (e.g. the famous tale of Lord
      > Asano) as well.
      >
      > First off, there are very few times I can think of where you would be
      > sitting in seiza with your sword in your obi. The only times I can
      > find are when you are 'working'. In which case, your question would
      > be something akin to 'why would you allow your guards to be able to
      > draw their weapons?', just as an analogy.
      >
      > BTW, the examples I can find of anything like 'tatehiza' almost
      > always have the person sitting on top of something else--e.g. their
      > armour box or a camp stool.
      >
      > However, the majority of times, whenever people sat down, their large
      > sword appears to be out and sitting on the ground next to them (if it
      > isn't collected and put in a separate room of the property). FWIW, I
      > have seen several techniques that appear to date from the 17th century
      > that are focused on this very posture.
      >
      > Looking at the history of seiza style iai: From everything I've seen,
      > seiza-posture in iai appears earliest in Omori Ryu, though that may be
      > debatable. I've yet to see anything attributed to Hayashizaki Jinsuke
      > Shigenobu that has the practitioner seated *in seiza* for the start of
      > the technique--I don't claim to know the entirety of the techniques
      > attributed to Hayashizaki Shigenobu, but I have yet to see one that
      > starts in seiza.
      >
      > Furthermore, in all styles I have yet to see that have suwari-waza and
      > have a lineage going back to before the Meiji period, seiza is the
      > *first* position learned. This gives credence to one particular
      > tradition that claims that the purpose behind seiza is not because you
      > would ever really attack from there, but that it began mostly as a
      > training procedure: Your hips are very limited when you are in seiza
      > position and you can more easily isolate some of the movements. It
      > also allows you to work in a smaller space, as those of us who have to
      > practice in our apartments can appreciate :)
      >
      > However, as I cannot find many examples of people seated in seiza with
      > their sword in their obi (and many times the sword is put down on the
      > person's right-hand side, blade in, though this is not universal), I
      > cannot come up with a martial reason to spend so much time on it
      > unless it is a training excercise. Furthermore, I don't see the
      > techniques at all prior to the Edo period.
      >
      > Not sure if I was able to capture that argument coherently or not, but
      > there you go.
      >
      >
      > -Ii
      >



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