2264Re: [SCA-JML] No means no...? (was Re: Monks manes)
- Nov 30, 2000lynnx@... wrote:
> (so what *did* Japanese monks do to their hair anyway? ;-)The latter one because it's not properly a name: Miura NO Anjin = Pilot OF
> O.k. I just *have* to ask this, it's been driving me bats,
> both modern and period.
> One of you dono types out there said
> > > Examples are Minamoto no Yoritomo <snip>
> How and when was the word "no" used in Japanese names, both
> In Period and
> now? Why don't:
> Koizumi Yakumo
> Oda Nobunaga
> Tokugawa Ieiasu (???sp - and pronunciation!)
> have it but
> Minamoto no Yoritomo
> Miura no Anjin) <dice> [the Pilot of Miura]
> <julienne> (Who or what is Miura?)
Easiest to say is that the way the names were identified changed over the
centuries. More and more surnames came into being or were created
(typically, a samurai or official moving into an area he controled would
take the locality name as his surname. Ashikaga, Soma, Ikeda, etc. are
examples of this, and for a while used "no" to imply the connection ("von
Hohenzollern" and "d'Anjou") like the English "of Effingham". By
Elizabethan days, the locative would be dropped and my name would typically
have been "Edward Effingham". In the same way, your g.g.g.grandfather's
Ashikaga no Fuafua (not a name) would become your Ashikaga Gerogero (not a
Earlier, when there were a few aristocratic names, you were identified by
the HOUSE you belonged to, thus Minamoto no Yoritomo = Yoritomo of the
Minamoto. This historically only lasted for the kuge houses, so references
to Konoe no Budada (an Edo court noble) are not incorrect for including the
By the 16th c, when you encountered a "no" in a name, it meant the "last"
name wasn't a surname but a locative, as in "Kimura no Shohei" = "Shohei
from [the town of] Kimura."
>This is frozen idiomatic usage. I've often heard "Ani no baka!" or
> And some modern ones...
> (Effingham and Solveig, *don't look*. You Have Been Warned!)
> "Darling no Baka"
> (assuming "darling" is a direct j/e noun to noun xlation)
> I've been told this means "my darling idiot". However
> "baka-yaro", "baka-mono" or just plain "baka" etc. don't
> seem to use "no". Huh???
"Nee-chan no baka!" in soap operas and the like. Basically, it means
"You're a doo-doo head!"
>Muyou is indeed "pointless, needless, unnecessary." "No Need for Tenchi" is
> "Tenchi Muyo" Muyo xlates in my j/e dictionary to
> "uselessness", "extraneousness", etc. It gets translated to
> "No Need for Tenchi" here. Oddly enough, the stories are
> usually called "No Need For [what/whoever drops in on Tenchi
> this time] (usually weird girls with superpowers,
exactly how I'd translate it.
> So... so far "no" means "of", "??my", ...
The thing to remember is that it's hierarchical. The second thing belongs
to (or is a subset of) the first. Like names, Minamoto no Yoritomo is
Yoritomo who belongs to the Minamoto. In other uses, this holds, too. Ishi
is rock, niwa is garden. "Ishi no niwa" means a rock garden (lit; "garden
of rock[s]"), while "niwa no ishi" is literally "rock from the garden."
>It's a suffix meaning "monk."
> BTW, what's this "-bo" our honorable buddies
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