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My Saw Smith has stopped working, very sad.

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  • mikejsmith2
    My name is Mike Smith, I am a new member who is happy to have found this group. I have a Saw Smith model 700000 serial number 709600. This saw was my fathers,
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 21, 2004
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      My name is Mike Smith, I am a new member who is happy to have found
      this group.

      I have a Saw Smith model 700000 serial number 709600. This saw was
      my fathers, I believe he purchased it around 1960. I got the saw
      about 12 years ago when he passed away. It has worked perfectly for
      me for many years. Just the other day after a morning of use, I
      went to turn on the saw and instead of the blade spinning up, I
      heard a reasonably loud "POP" and then nothing. Subsequent toggling
      of the on/off buttons produced nothing. No sound, no spinning, just
      nothing. To say the least I was/am heart broken.
      I unplugged the saw and spun the blade/motor by hand and it moved
      freely. Plugged it in again and tried the switch but still nothing.
      So I left to saw to "heal". :-)

      The next day I started trying to debug the problem. I started at
      the on/off switch with my voltmeter. Power was coming in to the
      switch and when I turned on the saw to check the other side of the
      switch, the motor started up. I was excited, yet concerned since I
      had not "fixed" anything. I then just tried turning the saw on and
      off a few times and low and behold I got that awful "POP" again and
      then nothing. The pop is kind of "electrical" sounding, in that it
      is not a "bang" and it is not a metal on metal kind of thing.

      So that is where I am now. I am not exactly sure how to proceed
      from here. I am not really that great with motors and such. My
      father taught me the the basics of the saw and I have never had a
      problem or known of a problem with the saw during its 40+ years.
      If any of you have any ideas for either debugging or repairing this
      issue I would be most appreciative. I have read most of the
      previous postings and replies but have not seen anything that would
      relate to what I am seeing.

      Thanks in advance.
      Mike Smith

      I am new to yahoo groups so I am not sure how the e-mail works. I
      will monitor the group message postings.
    • dexter2002
      Mike, Welcome aboard! Just a guess on my part but here goes. The starting capacitor on the motor sounds like it has gone south? Are you getting any sort of
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 22, 2004
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        Mike,

        Welcome aboard!

        Just a guess on my part but here goes.

        The starting capacitor on the motor sounds like it has gone south? Are you getting any sort of "hot electrical" smell? Any _good_ motor shop should have (or can order) what you need to get going again. IF you are not comfortable replacing it yourself, now would be a good time to pull the motor and have the shop give it a good going over, check the brushes, bearings etc while they replace that capacitor.

        My SS MK-V is one I picked up at a yard sale. The wiring inside and out was shot (all full of little cracks in the insulation) and the switch only worked if you giggled it _just_ right. If your wiring is at all worn or questionable, have the motor shop replace it too. _VERY_ inexpensive compared to losing your shop, home or life.

        I don't think your family heirloom is a lost cause. After +40 years of faithful service, it just needs a little TLC...don't we all? You'll have it up and spewing sawdust in no time at all.

        Good luck!

        DexAZ
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: mikejsmith2
        To: sawsmith@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 2:07 AM
        Subject: [sawsmith] My Saw Smith has stopped working, very sad.


        My name is Mike Smith, I am a new member who is happy to have found
        this group.

        I have a Saw Smith model 700000 serial number 709600. This saw was
        my fathers, I believe he purchased it around 1960. I got the saw
        about 12 years ago when he passed away. It has worked perfectly for
        me for many years. Just the other day after a morning of use, I
        went to turn on the saw and instead of the blade spinning up, I
        heard a reasonably loud "POP" and then nothing. Subsequent toggling
        of the on/off buttons produced nothing. No sound, no spinning, just
        nothing. To say the least I was/am heart broken.
        I unplugged the saw and spun the blade/motor by hand and it moved
        freely. Plugged it in again and tried the switch but still nothing.
        So I left to saw to "heal". :-)

        The next day I started trying to debug the problem. I started at
        the on/off switch with my voltmeter. Power was coming in to the
        switch and when I turned on the saw to check the other side of the
        switch, the motor started up. I was excited, yet concerned since I
        had not "fixed" anything. I then just tried turning the saw on and
        off a few times and low and behold I got that awful "POP" again and
        then nothing. The pop is kind of "electrical" sounding, in that it
        is not a "bang" and it is not a metal on metal kind of thing.

        So that is where I am now. I am not exactly sure how to proceed
        from here. I am not really that great with motors and such. My
        father taught me the the basics of the saw and I have never had a
        problem or known of a problem with the saw during its 40+ years.
        If any of you have any ideas for either debugging or repairing this
        issue I would be most appreciative. I have read most of the
        previous postings and replies but have not seen anything that would
        relate to what I am seeing.

        Thanks in advance.
        Mike Smith

        I am new to yahoo groups so I am not sure how the e-mail works. I
        will monitor the group message postings.





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      • Carl Finch
        ... Brushes? in a capacitor start motor there *are* no brushes! Mike, before you pull the entire motor assembly, you could start by checking the capacitor
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 22, 2004
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          At 09:42 AM 8/22/2004 -0400, dexter2002 wrote:

          >Just a guess on my part but here goes.
          >
          >The starting capacitor on the motor sounds like it has gone south? Are
          >you getting any sort of "hot electrical" smell? Any _good_ motor shop
          >should have (or can order) what you need to get going again. IF you are
          >not comfortable replacing it yourself, now would be a good time to pull
          >the motor and have the shop give it a good going over, check the brushes,
          >bearings etc while they replace that capacitor.

          "Brushes?" in a capacitor start motor there *are* no brushes!

          Mike, before you pull the entire motor assembly, you could start by
          checking the capacitor and the starting relay. They are in the little 'tin
          box' attached to the motor, held on by two small sheet metal screws.

          The capacitor can be checked at any motor repair shop or industrial supply
          store--just takes them a second to apply a testing meter (at no cost). A
          replacement should be readily available for less than $10. But I really
          doubt that this is your problem. Capacitors only "pop" once! That is,
          once they're gone, they're gone.

          Your runs-for-a-while-then-pops symptom makes me think you've a bad
          connection (opens under heat) or a short circuit. Hopefully that can be
          found in the wiring, or the relay, or the switch.

          You might try removing the relay and capacitor box and check the wiring and
          connectors within. Also remove the relay's own cover (it's black plastic,
          retained by a single screw at one corner) and check the contacts and wiring
          (look for indication of arcing--soot, burned areas).

          Then start the saw to see (if you can) the source of the arc
          (pop). Certainly you will first remove any blades from the arbors and make
          certain the exposed wiring and connectors are not touching anything,
          right?! And don't *you* be touching any of the metal parts of the saw
          while doing this!

          By doing this you can possibly see if the relay is malfunctioning (its
          contacts are normally closed and should open a moment after power is
          applied). I would think that that pop would result in a visible spark. Of
          course if it's happening inside the motor... (If you read my earlier
          messages you'll recall that the estimate I was given for a motor rewind was
          $250--gack!)

          --Carl

          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: mikejsmith2
          > To: sawsmith@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 2:07 AM
          > Subject: [sawsmith] My Saw Smith has stopped working, very sad.
          >
          > My name is Mike Smith, I am a new member who is happy to have found
          > this group.
          >
          > I have a Saw Smith model 700000 serial number 709600. This saw was
          > my fathers, I believe he purchased it around 1960. I got the saw
          > about 12 years ago when he passed away. It has worked perfectly for
          > me for many years. Just the other day after a morning of use, I
          > went to turn on the saw and instead of the blade spinning up, I
          > heard a reasonably loud "POP" and then nothing. Subsequent toggling
          > of the on/off buttons produced nothing. No sound, no spinning, just
          > nothing. To say the least I was/am heart broken.
          > I unplugged the saw and spun the blade/motor by hand and it moved
          > freely. Plugged it in again and tried the switch but still nothing.
          > So I left to saw to "heal". :-)
          >
          > The next day I started trying to debug the problem. I started at
          > the on/off switch with my voltmeter. Power was coming in to the
          > switch and when I turned on the saw to check the other side of the
          > switch, the motor started up. I was excited, yet concerned since I
          > had not "fixed" anything. I then just tried turning the saw on and
          > off a few times and low and behold I got that awful "POP" again and
          > then nothing. The pop is kind of "electrical" sounding, in that it
          > is not a "bang" and it is not a metal on metal kind of thing.
          >
          > So that is where I am now. I am not exactly sure how to proceed
          > from here. I am not really that great with motors and such. My
          > father taught me the the basics of the saw and I have never had a
          > problem or known of a problem with the saw during its 40+ years.
          > If any of you have any ideas for either debugging or repairing this
          > issue I would be most appreciative. I have read most of the
          > previous postings and replies but have not seen anything that would
          > relate to what I am seeing.
          >
          > Thanks in advance.
          > Mike Smith
          >
          > I am new to yahoo groups so I am not sure how the e-mail works. I
          > will monitor the group message postings.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          > ADVERTISEMENT
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        • rroberts@email.arizona.edu
          Mike, I ve only had mine a short while and I ll confess that I still have to finish reassembling it after getting it. I ve not used it yet. I m not out in my
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 22, 2004
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            Mike,

            I've only had mine a short while and I'll confess that I still have to finish
            reassembling it after getting it. I've not used it yet.

            I'm not out in my shop right now but I am thinking I remember a thermal overload
            switch on the motor housing. I may be wrong and be thinking of another brand
            of RAS I've used in the past. But it would seem to me that there would be some
            kind of thermal protection on the motor. If so and it is tripping, then
            getting to the cause would be the question.

            In my experience when such overload switches trip they make a sort of pop sound.

            It's a thought anyway.

            Ron



            Quoting mikejsmith2 <mikejsmith2@...>:

            > My name is Mike Smith, I am a new member who is happy to have found
            > this group.
            >
            > I have a Saw Smith model 700000 serial number 709600. This saw was
            > my fathers, I believe he purchased it around 1960. I got the saw
            > about 12 years ago when he passed away. It has worked perfectly for
            > me for many years. Just the other day after a morning of use, I
            > went to turn on the saw and instead of the blade spinning up, I
            > heard a reasonably loud "POP" and then nothing. Subsequent toggling
            > of the on/off buttons produced nothing. No sound, no spinning, just
            > nothing. To say the least I was/am heart broken.
            > I unplugged the saw and spun the blade/motor by hand and it moved
            > freely. Plugged it in again and tried the switch but still nothing.
            > So I left to saw to "heal". :-)
            >
            > The next day I started trying to debug the problem. I started at
            > the on/off switch with my voltmeter. Power was coming in to the
            > switch and when I turned on the saw to check the other side of the
            > switch, the motor started up. I was excited, yet concerned since I
            > had not "fixed" anything. I then just tried turning the saw on and
            > off a few times and low and behold I got that awful "POP" again and
            > then nothing. The pop is kind of "electrical" sounding, in that it
            > is not a "bang" and it is not a metal on metal kind of thing.
            >
            > So that is where I am now. I am not exactly sure how to proceed
            > from here. I am not really that great with motors and such. My
            > father taught me the the basics of the saw and I have never had a
            > problem or known of a problem with the saw during its 40+ years.
            > If any of you have any ideas for either debugging or repairing this
            > issue I would be most appreciative. I have read most of the
            > previous postings and replies but have not seen anything that would
            > relate to what I am seeing.
            >
            > Thanks in advance.
            > Mike Smith
            >
            > I am new to yahoo groups so I am not sure how the e-mail works. I
            > will monitor the group message postings.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sawsmith/
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > sawsmith-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • mikejsmith2
            Well first let me say thank you all for your quick responses. Well after some more investigation it looks like I may have a problem with the coiled wire from
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 24, 2004
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              Well first let me say thank you all for your quick responses.

              Well after some more investigation it "looks" like I may have a
              problem with the coiled wire from the switch.

              I took of the relay and capacitor cover and there was no obvious
              signs of arcing. Carl, You mentioned that the relay contacts would
              be closed. I saw two basic mechanisms in the relay. A small contact
              that was closed (about an 1/8 of an inch round contact) There was
              also another mechanism where there was a large round thing that
              looked like it had a wire wound around (quarter sized in diameter
              and about 1/2 inch thick. There was a spring load thing that could
              swing over an contact it but is presently open.
              Sorry for my ignorance is this area. :-)
              So nothing significant yet. I start checking the voltages and low
              and behold there did not appear to be any power coming out of the
              coiled wire where it connected to the relay. I checked the switch
              end again and there was power there.

              With the power cord plugged in I carefully slid the motor/assembly
              along the arm and I heard some cracking and saw some faint smoke.
              No activity at all in the relay. I examined the coiled wire more
              closely since the noise came from that general area. (I can not
              rule out the motor since it all was very brief) but there is a
              definite break in the black covering of the coiled wire and I can
              see a "cotton" insulation. The break is exactly in the spot over
              the motor where you really can not get in and look at it.

              So my questions are: How do I get this coiled wire off? It was not
              obvious to me how to remove it from the capacitor/relay housing,
              there is a black plastic connector holding it in pretty securely. I
              was trying to get the wires off the switch end and they were not
              cooperating either. Do I have to remove the whole switch assembly?
              It was difficult getting my hands up under the arm the slide of the
              wire connections.
              I have seen previous messages about replacement coiled wires, Once
              I determine if this is the cause I will order one. What to get the
              old one out and either "fix" it temporarily and make sure the saw
              runs before ordering a new one.

              Finally, I am very surprised that I could get this kind of
              poping/arcing and not pop the 20 amp breaker. So I am still unsure
              this is the problem but it certainly seems like a very likely cause.

              Thanks in advance for any more advice.
              Mike



              --- In sawsmith@yahoogroups.com, rroberts@e... wrote:
              > Mike,
              >
              > I've only had mine a short while and I'll confess that I still
              have to finish
              > reassembling it after getting it. I've not used it yet.
              >
              > I'm not out in my shop right now but I am thinking I remember a
              thermal overload
              > switch on the motor housing. I may be wrong and be thinking of
              another brand
              > of RAS I've used in the past. But it would seem to me that there
              would be some
              > kind of thermal protection on the motor. If so and it is
              tripping, then
              > getting to the cause would be the question.
              >
              > In my experience when such overload switches trip they make a sort
              of pop sound.
              >
              > It's a thought anyway.
              >
              > Ron
              >
              >
              >
              > Quoting mikejsmith2 <mikejsmith2@y...>:
              >
              > > My name is Mike Smith, I am a new member who is happy to have
              found
              > > this group.
              > >
              > > I have a Saw Smith model 700000 serial number 709600. This saw
              was
              > > my fathers, I believe he purchased it around 1960. I got the saw
              > > about 12 years ago when he passed away. It has worked perfectly
              for
              > > me for many years. Just the other day after a morning of use, I
              > > went to turn on the saw and instead of the blade spinning up, I
              > > heard a reasonably loud "POP" and then nothing. Subsequent
              toggling
              > > of the on/off buttons produced nothing. No sound, no spinning,
              just
              > > nothing. To say the least I was/am heart broken.
              > > I unplugged the saw and spun the blade/motor by hand and it moved
              > > freely. Plugged it in again and tried the switch but still
              nothing.
              > > So I left to saw to "heal". :-)
              > >
              > > The next day I started trying to debug the problem. I started at
              > > the on/off switch with my voltmeter. Power was coming in to the
              > > switch and when I turned on the saw to check the other side of
              the
              > > switch, the motor started up. I was excited, yet concerned
              since I
              > > had not "fixed" anything. I then just tried turning the saw on
              and
              > > off a few times and low and behold I got that awful "POP" again
              and
              > > then nothing. The pop is kind of "electrical" sounding, in that
              it
              > > is not a "bang" and it is not a metal on metal kind of thing.
              > >
              > > So that is where I am now. I am not exactly sure how to proceed
              > > from here. I am not really that great with motors and such. My
              > > father taught me the the basics of the saw and I have never had a
              > > problem or known of a problem with the saw during its 40+ years.
              > > If any of you have any ideas for either debugging or repairing
              this
              > > issue I would be most appreciative. I have read most of the
              > > previous postings and replies but have not seen anything that
              would
              > > relate to what I am seeing.
              > >
              > > Thanks in advance.
              > > Mike Smith
              > >
              > > I am new to yahoo groups so I am not sure how the e-mail works.
              I
              > > will monitor the group message postings.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sawsmith/
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > sawsmith-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
            • Carl Finch
              ... A relay is simply a switch that is activated by an electromagnet. Current passing through the many windings of a coil create a magnetic field, that field
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 24, 2004
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                At 02:41 AM 8/25/2004 +0000, mikejsmith2 wrote:
                >Well first let me say thank you all for your quick responses.
                >
                >Well after some more investigation it "looks" like I may have a
                >problem with the coiled wire from the switch.
                >
                >I took of the relay and capacitor cover and there was no obvious
                >signs of arcing. Carl, You mentioned that the relay contacts would
                >be closed. I saw two basic mechanisms in the relay. A small contact
                >that was closed (about an 1/8 of an inch round contact) There was
                >also another mechanism where there was a large round thing that
                >looked like it had a wire wound around (quarter sized in diameter
                >and about 1/2 inch thick. There was a spring load thing that could
                >swing over an contact it but is presently open.

                A relay is simply a switch that is activated by an electromagnet. Current
                passing through the many windings of a coil create a magnetic field, that
                field acts upon a linkage (iron) which then overcomes the spring(s) holding
                the switch contacts closed, causing them to open (or vice versa, if that's
                what's needed).

                >Sorry for my ignorance is this area. :-)
                >So nothing significant yet. I start checking the voltages and low
                >and behold there did not appear to be any power coming out of the
                >coiled wire where it connected to the relay. I checked the switch
                >end again and there was power there.

                Which pretty clearly means that there is a break in the circuit between the
                switch and the relay! It's likely that the 40+ year old coiled cord has
                been stretched once to often. I know my coiled cord gets pretty stiff in
                cold weather.

                >With the power cord plugged in I carefully slid the motor/assembly
                >along the arm and I heard some cracking and saw some faint smoke.
                >No activity at all in the relay. I examined the coiled wire more
                >closely since the noise came from that general area. (I can not
                >rule out the motor since it all was very brief) but there is a
                >definite break in the black covering of the coiled wire and I can
                >see a "cotton" insulation. The break is exactly in the spot over
                >the motor where you really can not get in and look at it.
                >
                >So my questions are: How do I get this coiled wire off? It was not
                >obvious to me how to remove it from the capacitor/relay housing,
                >there is a black plastic connector holding it in pretty securely. I
                >was trying to get the wires off the switch end and they were not
                >cooperating either. Do I have to remove the whole switch assembly?
                >It was difficult getting my hands up under the arm the slide of the
                >wire connections.
                >I have seen previous messages about replacement coiled wires, Once
                >I determine if this is the cause I will order one. What to get the
                >old one out and either "fix" it temporarily and make sure the saw
                >runs before ordering a new one.

                You've already said the saw *does* run, if only briefly, before the pop
                occurs. What I would do to test the cord is simply to take a heavy length
                of lamp cord, with a plug on one end and alligator clips on the other, and
                clip it directly to the two blades of the relay where the coiled cord
                attaches--thus bypassing both the cord and the keylock switch. Your
                "temporary fix" would mean disassembling things and somehow (?) repairing
                what is probably a break in the coiled cord.

                BUT: if you are not aware of, and familiar with, the difference between the
                neutral and the hot legs of your house wiring and how to connect safely to
                the relay (and run a safety ground in addition)... DO NOT try this!! (Your
                obit posted in this group would really put a damper on our spirits!) ;-)

                >Finally, I am very surprised that I could get this kind of
                >poping/arcing and not pop the 20 amp breaker.

                A circuit breaker opens when too much current is drawn (perhaps a short to
                ground). Simply opening a circuit (the pop when the bad connection or
                broken wire separates) draws no more current than turning off the saw with
                the switch.

                --Carl
                in Medford, Oregon
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