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Re: [savetara.com] Re: Queries etc.

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  • Martin Dier
    Inscribed rock is about 1.5m on split surface and 1m high. Is stone age. Split in antiquity by early christians to cap the souterain....but carved surface did
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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      Inscribed rock is about 1.5m on split surface and 1m high. Is stone age.
      Split in antiquity by early christians to cap the souterain....but
      carved surface did not show in interior of beehive dome.
      Pattern consists of parts of nested circles, chevron pattern and pecking.

      The henge is cut into earlier ditches ! (this is HUGELY
      important).....these are prehistoric, possibly neolithic and may be
      another ceide field system in the valley.
      It shows that valley was a focus for stone age ritual thousands of years
      before the henge.....Tara is not just the hill top, which we have said
      all along.

      Martin
    • marcellavee
      thanks Tadhg , Martin - this is exactly what is wanted a description of what was found and a link to possible use /signifigance and an idea of the people who
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 2, 2008
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        thanks Tadhg , Martin
        -
        this is exactly what is wanted
        a description of what was found and a link to possible use
        /signifigance and an idea of the people who made it/used it
        ...and why that is thought to be the case
        -
        ...so as it is possible to relate to
        both to picture the original users and to the process of Discovery
        itself ...
        -
        Martin - do you have this information for all the sites ...? can you
        do this ....?
        - sorry for asking - I know this is a tall order - especially as I
        need it by Sunday at the absolute latest and really need it before
        -
        - but I DO think it is a resource that we all ought to have
        -
        please say ASAP if you can compile this ....?
        but please try !
        it would still be better to have an incomplete version than none at all
        -
        Tadhg
        yes - thanks for that too
        the point being then that what has been already found - important as
        it is - represents only what has been found in an 80 metre wide sample
        strip thorough the valley
        -
        and just gives hints and clues at what lies as yet undiscoverd
        which hopefully will be one day in a less destructive way
        -
        -
        ps /Martin - why do you say the souterrain was Christian ...? any
        symbols etc ..? or any suggestions that it was used for worship - like
        a catacomb...?
        or do you just mean Christian in the time sense ...?
        this could be important -
        as one of the unique things about Tara is her pivotal connection with the
        transition between Pagan and Christian
        Ive no religious agendas here - I think they are irrelevant -
        its that this is an important one of the various things that sets Tara
        apart from other archaelogically interesting places
        -
        and of particular importance to some people
        -
        - and exactly BECAUSE she is at the interface of History and Legend
        and extraordinarily rich in both
        from so many different phases
        that more than any other place - every single bit should be treasured
        as they will provide clues to
        how the two relate
        -
        -- though hopefully better written than I can 8-)
        -
        ps - very interesting about the field system under the henge
        -
        what is " ceide "...?
      • Martin Dier
        Hi Sorry, just turned on the computer again. to find your e. In answer to your questions No I dont have succinct information for the other sites. I say
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 5, 2008
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          Hi
          Sorry, just turned on the computer again. to find your e.
          In answer to your questions
          No I dont have succinct information for the other sites.
          I say christian simply because souterains tend to belong to the early
          christian period in Ireland
          Ceide is a neolithic field system in Mayo of international significance.
          Hope that helps some what .
          Martin

          (Sorry to intervene again! Thanks for the clarifications Martin, there seems to be some widespread misunderstanding about the date of souterrains. As you say they are generally medieval, from about 1,000 I think. Mark Clinton has a great book on them. As a non-archaeologist I'm slow to reply to these queries.Muireann)
        • marcellavee
          thanks Martin ...any more info about what a Ceide system consists of though ..? and what makes it of international signifcance? I cant find anything on the
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 5, 2008
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            thanks Martin
            ...any more info about what a Ceide system consists of though ..? and
            what makes it of international signifcance? I cant find anything on
            the Internet
            -
            and Muireann - why aplogise for putting in the information that we
            need ? - thats great ! we need it !- I can hardly find anything online
            about souterrains at all - so strange because there seem to be so many
            anyway - re/ succinct information from other sites
            Emily has sent me a transcript of the words to a powerpoint
            presentatiom the Vigil put together
            its at
            http://www.tarataratara.net/Tara_Donagh.htm
            and scrappy as it is - it is still better than anything else I can
            find and does give something of a feeling for the whole picture
            And there is so much interesting material
            Im still working on it - but could somebody take a look at it this
            evening maybe
            and say if anything is either wrong or obviously missing
            many thanks
            marcella
            -
            Carmel ... in your next Lifetime you get to lie around and eat grapes
            all day - truly !
            -
          • Dr. Muireann Ni Bhrolchain
            That s an excellent powerpoint - I had not seen or heard of that before. I want to make one quick observation: Baronstown was not actually declared a National
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 5, 2008
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              That's an excellent powerpoint - I had not seen or heard of that before.
              I want to make one quick observation: Baronstown was not actually
              declared a National Monument.
              Pat Wallace said that it was of equal importance as Lismullin. That is
              implying that it is a Nat.Mon. but the official declaration never happened.
              When it was known by the NRA/authorities that the documents were being
              released by Gormley - it was destroyed in the early morning.
              Muireann
            • Martin Dier
              You could try the following link http://www.museumsofmayo.com/ceide.htm my point is that they have a museum for a few neolithic fields in Mayo that is of
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 5, 2008
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                You could try the following link
                http://www.museumsofmayo.com/ceide.htm
                my point is that they have a museum for a few neolithic fields in Mayo
                that is of international importance (being neolithic and intact) and now
                it seems we have the same at Tara only its under a motorway.
                It makes the landscape even more important than previously thought and
                as I said is older than the aul henge.
              • Paula Geraghty
                Concealed beneath a five thousand year old bog near Ballycastle in County Mayo is a remarkable pattern of walled fields and corrals which indicate the
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 5, 2008
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                  Concealed beneath a five thousand year old bog near Ballycastle in
                  County Mayo is a remarkable pattern of walled fields and corrals which
                  indicate the existence of an ancient, ordered tribe who farmed this
                  area before the bog was formed.

                  It's one of the most amazing examples of Neolithic farming when people moved from a hunter gatherer society to a settled farming system of food production. It was perfectly preserved under bog land which formed over it over thousands of years. The field system that is so walls were built to mark out field boundaries. All that means that this was probably the first time that land was divided up into fields, signifying the development of property ownership/relations, the development of class society and the various economic and other relationships therein.

                  Today, field boundaries can be barbed wire fences, dry stone walls, hedgerows with or without ditches or old field or townland boundaries reused in multiple ways.

                  Get a book from you local bookshop on early Irish archaeology, Michael Ryan has a nice blue book bit dated now but still very relevant for the CĂ©ide Fields. There are more academic tomes such as Landscapes of the Neolithic etc. If you are in Dublin go to the National Museum of Ireland and pick up a book. They are no compensation for emails!

                  http://www.museumsofmayo.com/ceide.htm
                  http://www.mayo-ireland.ie/virtualtours/ceidefields.htm
                  http://www.museumsofmayo.com/ceide1.htm
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9ide_Fields
                  http://www.dochara.com/tips/ceide-fields.php
                  http://www.inver.org/ceantar/Ceide.html

                  Hope it helps

                  Regards

                  Paula
                • marcellavee
                  yes, - but is this documented ...? and if so - has it been publicised ....? and if not - why not ...? please both of you - Paula - Martin understand that I am
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 6, 2008
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                    yes, - but is this documented ...? and if so - has it been publicised ....? and if not - why not ...?
                    please both of you - Paula - Martin
                    understand that I am not an Academic - an Archaeogist or part of any
                    Group and have no status in this world whatever
                    I am a freelance gardener and sell eggs in a market
                    and am not the person to be putting this out to the World
                    and I am simply trying to compile a basic overview of what was found
                    without including mysterious and undefined technical terms
                    because I need this to exist
                    to refer people to as a resource
                    http://www.tarataratara.net/Tara_Donagh.htm in progress
                    because I am trying to organise something in Belfast
                    in solidarity with Tara on the 8th which is next Tuesday
                    and this in itself is not bit easy and is involving all kinds of
                    writing letters - trying to make a banner -running around with posters
                    and such
                    and I surely wont be ordering books for a while
                    though I have linked the site to the list of books and sites
                    in case anyone has the time
                    but the wiki one is very good
                    still not sure where the word" ceide" comes from
                    a brief bit about the souterrains would be welcome - there seem to be
                    so many of them - and so little information
                    but yes it IS interesting that there is this field system under the Henge
                    HAS this been public ..?
                    marcella
                    http://www.tarataratara.net
                  • Paula Geraghty
                    It is very well documented, our emails and the number of links also indicate it. It has also been explained that there are books available. I cannot do the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 6, 2008
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                      It is very well documented, our emails and the number of links also indicate it.
                      It has also been explained that there are books available.

                      I cannot do the research for you, the basics are on the net and if you
                      wish to pursue your interest further then I would encourage you to do
                      so.
                      I'm not in a position to do the research on the pre existing field systems at Lismullin, but perhaps email Mary Deevy at the NRA, or other academics who are specialists in the Neolithic. I think that would be rather interesting to get their responses. Try archaeology@... and FAO Professor Gabriel Cooney, a leading and eminent archaeologist in prehistoric settlement patterns.

                      Afterall:
                      UCD School of Archaeology's Research Groups, working with these Themes, support excellence in archaeological scholarship; carry out innovative
                      research programmes; provide policy analysis and expert advice in
                      relation to archaeological heritage and disseminate knowledge of
                      Ireland's archaeology to national and global audiences. http://www.ucd.ie/archaeology/

                      Kind Regards,

                      Paula Geraghty

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: marcellavee <anitagreg@...>
                      To: savetara@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, 6 January, 2008 10:43:43 AM
                      Subject: [savetara.com] Re: Queries -.History/Legend - Info from the Vigil -
                    • marcellavee
                      Paula thank you I am not an Archaeologist - I am trying to compile information for the campaign for tommorow thank you marcella
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 6, 2008
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                        Paula

                        thank you
                        I am not an Archaeologist - I am trying to compile information for the campaign for tommorow
                        thank you

                        marcella
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