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RE: [Santeria Online] Re: Alaroye

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  • jay amigo
    hi, could u be speaking of eshu b? ... _________________________________________________________________ Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 29, 2003
      hi, could u be speaking of eshu b?




      >From: panche70 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      >Reply-To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
      >To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [Santeria Online] Re: Alaroye
      >Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:22:44 -0000
      >
      >The Eshu I am talking about is from a Olorisha. When I say spiritual
      >I mean it works alot with the muerto. Is there such a Eshu?
      >
      >
      >--- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Atar� <ekun@m...>
      >wrote:
      > > The idea of "Spiritual Eshu's" that is, an Eshu that is not made
      >by an
      > > Olorisha or Babalawo, but is merely some object with a non-Lukumi
      >or
      > > non-Ifa ceremony done to it is nonsense. I have seen, in Cuba and
      >in
      > > Miami, Espiritistas who do not have Ocha or Ifa tell me that some
      >object
      > > they have at the door is an Eshu they made. Someone who is not an
      > > initiated priest of ifa or sacerdote of Orisha cannot make an Eshu.
      > >
      > > Essentially, since Eshu-Elegbara is the messenger between Aye and
      >Orun,
      > > and since He controls the Central Cosmological point, all Eleguases
      > > works with Spirits and Egun.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > panche70 wrote:
      > >
      > > >There is a spiritual Eshu that works with the muertos can anyone
      >tell
      > > >me his name???
      > > >
      > > >-- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Atar� <ekun@m...>
      >wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >>Laroye is the "Trouble Maker." In fact, that is what Laroye
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >means:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >>Trouble Maker.
      > > >>
      > > >>Laroye is also the most common Elegua for Children of Shango to
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >have.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >>Here are some things about him, if you ask stupid questions
      >during
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >a
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >>session with obi agbon (coconut divination) he will fuck with you
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >and
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >>give you confusing answers. He likes you to be clear minded and
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >serious
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >>when you approach him for divination. He will teach you about
      >his
      > > >>character if you do enough Divination with him.
      > > >>
      > > >>Do you have Laroye? Do you know how to do divination with coco?
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >What
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >>did your godparents tell you about Laroye?
      > > >>
      > > >>Ekun
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>Brujito wrote:
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >>>Ellegua Laroye es el ellegua de camino nino en lugar de un
      >ellgua
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >con camino del ellegua viejo...mas?? Brujito
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >>>micksanturio <MICKSANTURIO@A...> wrote:Hi group
      > > >>>Would anyone like to share any information they
      > > >>>have on Eleggua'Laroye'
      > > >>>Thanks Mick
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >>>
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > >
      > > >To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/santeriaonline/
      > > >
      > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > santeriaonline-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
      > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
      Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time introductory
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    • Africanias Editor
      Alafia. If you receive Echu only can be feeded with eye by a babalawo. If you receive Elegua olochas can feed them with eyebale. Olochas with Pinado make
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 29, 2003
        Alafia.
        If you receive Echu only can be feeded with eye by a
        babalawo. If you receive Elegua olochas can feed them
        with eyebale. Olochas with Pinado make Elegua with
        "cuchilla" because only pinaderos can feed them.
        Elegua of Ocha is a ota odara with your head and
        consecrate upon Lukumi Rule by Osain and speak with
        Obinu.
        Ache

        --- Ewetuga_Atar� <ekun@...> wrote:
        > Some Olorisha claim that an Eshu is a more elemental
        > force, and an
        > Elegua is more refined. Some Olorisha say that
        > Eshu-Elegbara is merely
        > a praise name and that it is an error to say that
        > Eshu and Elegua are
        > different. (Note: Elegua and Elegba are the same
        > thing but only
        > different regional pronunciations, just as ekuele,
        > opele, epele are the
        > same word with different regional pronunciations.)
        >
        > Some Olorisha say that only Babalawos give Eshu, and
        > only Olorisha give
        > Elegua.
        >
        > The way to learn about the characteristics of the
        > Elegua you were given
        > is by living with Him in your house, and doing Obi
        > Agbon divination.
        > Overtime, you will understand and learn His
        > personality.
        >
        >
        > Ekun
        >
        >
        > panche70 wrote:
        >
        > >Firstly, what is the difference between the names
        > Ellegua and Eshu???
        > >Secondly, I am not on speaking terms with the
        > person who gave me my
        > >Ellegua. When he did the reading to see which
        > Ellegua I was to
        > >receive it was said that mine works with the muerto
        > and is spiritual.
        > >I defently have a Santerio Ellegua this is just one
        > of his charactics.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        =====
        AfricaniasOnline
        Informacion con ashe...kuenda nshila ko
        http://www.geocities.com/africaniasonline
        africaniasonline@...

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      • panche70
        Thanks a bunch for the info. Is there any sites that list the different caminos of Ellegua??? ... merely ... are ... the ... give ... given ... divination. ...
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 29, 2003
          Thanks a bunch for the info. Is there any sites that list the
          different caminos of Ellegua???


          --- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré <ekun@m...>
          wrote:
          > Some Olorisha claim that an Eshu is a more elemental force, and an
          > Elegua is more refined. Some Olorisha say that Eshu-Elegbara is
          merely
          > a praise name and that it is an error to say that Eshu and Elegua
          are
          > different. (Note: Elegua and Elegba are the same thing but only
          > different regional pronunciations, just as ekuele, opele, epele are
          the
          > same word with different regional pronunciations.)
          >
          > Some Olorisha say that only Babalawos give Eshu, and only Olorisha
          give
          > Elegua.
          >
          > The way to learn about the characteristics of the Elegua you were
          given
          > is by living with Him in your house, and doing Obi Agbon
          divination.
          > Overtime, you will understand and learn His personality.
          >
          >
          > Ekun
          >
          >
          > panche70 wrote:
          >
          > >Firstly, what is the difference between the names Ellegua and
          Eshu???
          > >Secondly, I am not on speaking terms with the person who gave me
          my
          > >Ellegua. When he did the reading to see which Ellegua I was to
          > >receive it was said that mine works with the muerto and is
          spiritual.
          > >I defently have a Santerio Ellegua this is just one of his
          charactics.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
        • panche70
          Eshu B???? I don t understand ... spiritual ... made ... Lukumi ... and ... some ... an ... Eshu. ... and ... Eleguases ... anyone ... to ... you ... and ...
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 29, 2003
            Eshu B???? I don't understand


            --- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, "jay amigo" <amigo10032@h...>
            wrote:
            > hi, could u be speaking of eshu b?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >From: panche70 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
            > >Reply-To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
            > >To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
            > >Subject: [Santeria Online] Re: Alaroye
            > >Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:22:44 -0000
            > >
            > >The Eshu I am talking about is from a Olorisha. When I say
            spiritual
            > >I mean it works alot with the muerto. Is there such a Eshu?
            > >
            > >
            > >--- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré <ekun@m...>
            > >wrote:
            > > > The idea of "Spiritual Eshu's" that is, an Eshu that is not
            made
            > >by an
            > > > Olorisha or Babalawo, but is merely some object with a non-
            Lukumi
            > >or
            > > > non-Ifa ceremony done to it is nonsense. I have seen, in Cuba
            and
            > >in
            > > > Miami, Espiritistas who do not have Ocha or Ifa tell me that
            some
            > >object
            > > > they have at the door is an Eshu they made. Someone who is not
            an
            > > > initiated priest of ifa or sacerdote of Orisha cannot make an
            Eshu.
            > > >
            > > > Essentially, since Eshu-Elegbara is the messenger between Aye
            and
            > >Orun,
            > > > and since He controls the Central Cosmological point, all
            Eleguases
            > > > works with Spirits and Egun.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > panche70 wrote:
            > > >
            > > > >There is a spiritual Eshu that works with the muertos can
            anyone
            > >tell
            > > > >me his name???
            > > > >
            > > > >-- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré <ekun@m...>
            > >wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >>Laroye is the "Trouble Maker." In fact, that is what Laroye
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > > >means:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >>Trouble Maker.
            > > > >>
            > > > >>Laroye is also the most common Elegua for Children of Shango
            to
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > > >have.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >>Here are some things about him, if you ask stupid questions
            > >during
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > > >a
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >>session with obi agbon (coconut divination) he will fuck with
            you
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > > >and
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >>give you confusing answers. He likes you to be clear minded
            and
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > > >serious
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >>when you approach him for divination. He will teach you about
            > >his
            > > > >>character if you do enough Divination with him.
            > > > >>
            > > > >>Do you have Laroye? Do you know how to do divination with
            coco?
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > > >What
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >>did your godparents tell you about Laroye?
            > > > >>
            > > > >>Ekun
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > > >>Brujito wrote:
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > > >>
            > > > >>>Ellegua Laroye es el ellegua de camino nino en lugar de un
            > >ellgua
            > > > >>>
            > > > >>>
            > > > >con camino del ellegua viejo...mas?? Brujito
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >>>micksanturio <MICKSANTURIO@A...> wrote:Hi group
            > > > >>>Would anyone like to share any information they
            > > > >>>have on Eleggua'Laroye'
            > > > >>>Thanks Mick
            > > > >>>
            > > > >>>
            > > > >>>
            > > > >>>
            > > > >>>
            > > > >>>
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > > >
            > > > >To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/santeriaonline/
            > > > >
            > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > > santeriaonline-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > > >
            > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time
            introductory
            > offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
          • jay amigo
            Eshu B, Is an eshu that is used when u have not recieved ur warriors and it is used with los muertos. ...
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 29, 2003
              Eshu B, Is an eshu that is used when u have not recieved ur warriors and it
              is used with los muertos.


              >From: panche70 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
              >Reply-To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
              >To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [Santeria Online] Re: Alaroye
              >Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:35:04 -0000
              >
              >Eshu B???? I don't understand
              >
              >
              >--- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, "jay amigo" <amigo10032@h...>
              >wrote:
              > > hi, could u be speaking of eshu b?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > >From: panche70 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
              > > >Reply-To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
              > > >To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
              > > >Subject: [Santeria Online] Re: Alaroye
              > > >Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:22:44 -0000
              > > >
              > > >The Eshu I am talking about is from a Olorisha. When I say
              >spiritual
              > > >I mean it works alot with the muerto. Is there such a Eshu?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >--- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Atar� <ekun@m...>
              > > >wrote:
              > > > > The idea of "Spiritual Eshu's" that is, an Eshu that is not
              >made
              > > >by an
              > > > > Olorisha or Babalawo, but is merely some object with a non-
              >Lukumi
              > > >or
              > > > > non-Ifa ceremony done to it is nonsense. I have seen, in Cuba
              >and
              > > >in
              > > > > Miami, Espiritistas who do not have Ocha or Ifa tell me that
              >some
              > > >object
              > > > > they have at the door is an Eshu they made. Someone who is not
              >an
              > > > > initiated priest of ifa or sacerdote of Orisha cannot make an
              >Eshu.
              > > > >
              > > > > Essentially, since Eshu-Elegbara is the messenger between Aye
              >and
              > > >Orun,
              > > > > and since He controls the Central Cosmological point, all
              >Eleguases
              > > > > works with Spirits and Egun.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > panche70 wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > >There is a spiritual Eshu that works with the muertos can
              >anyone
              > > >tell
              > > > > >me his name???
              > > > > >
              > > > > >-- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Atar� <ekun@m...>
              > > >wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >>Laroye is the "Trouble Maker." In fact, that is what Laroye
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >means:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >>Trouble Maker.
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>Laroye is also the most common Elegua for Children of Shango
              >to
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >have.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >>Here are some things about him, if you ask stupid questions
              > > >during
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >a
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >>session with obi agbon (coconut divination) he will fuck with
              >you
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >and
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >>give you confusing answers. He likes you to be clear minded
              >and
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >serious
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >>when you approach him for divination. He will teach you about
              > > >his
              > > > > >>character if you do enough Divination with him.
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>Do you have Laroye? Do you know how to do divination with
              >coco?
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >What
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >>did your godparents tell you about Laroye?
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>Ekun
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>Brujito wrote:
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>
              > > > > >>>Ellegua Laroye es el ellegua de camino nino en lugar de un
              > > >ellgua
              > > > > >>>
              > > > > >>>
              > > > > >con camino del ellegua viejo...mas?? Brujito
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >>>micksanturio <MICKSANTURIO@A...> wrote:Hi group
              > > > > >>>Would anyone like to share any information they
              > > > > >>>have on Eleggua'Laroye'
              > > > > >>>Thanks Mick
              > > > > >>>
              > > > > >>>
              > > > > >>>
              > > > > >>>
              > > > > >>>
              > > > > >>>
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > > > >
              > > > > >To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/santeriaonline/
              > > > > >
              > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > > > santeriaonline-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > >
              > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              > > _________________________________________________________________
              > > Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time
              >introductory
              > > offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
              >

              _________________________________________________________________
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            • panche70
              No I don t have that I have my guerros ... warriors and it ... ... ... Cuba ... not ... an ... Aye ... ... Laroye ...
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 29, 2003
                No I don't have that I have my guerros


                --- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, "jay amigo" <amigo10032@h...>
                wrote:
                > Eshu B, Is an eshu that is used when u have not recieved ur
                warriors and it
                > is used with los muertos.
                >
                >
                > >From: panche70 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                > >Reply-To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
                > >To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
                > >Subject: [Santeria Online] Re: Alaroye
                > >Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 15:35:04 -0000
                > >
                > >Eshu B???? I don't understand
                > >
                > >
                > >--- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, "jay amigo"
                <amigo10032@h...>
                > >wrote:
                > > > hi, could u be speaking of eshu b?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > >From: panche70 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > >Reply-To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
                > > > >To: santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com
                > > > >Subject: [Santeria Online] Re: Alaroye
                > > > >Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2003 15:22:44 -0000
                > > > >
                > > > >The Eshu I am talking about is from a Olorisha. When I say
                > >spiritual
                > > > >I mean it works alot with the muerto. Is there such a Eshu?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >--- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré
                <ekun@m...>
                > > > >wrote:
                > > > > > The idea of "Spiritual Eshu's" that is, an Eshu that is not
                > >made
                > > > >by an
                > > > > > Olorisha or Babalawo, but is merely some object with a non-
                > >Lukumi
                > > > >or
                > > > > > non-Ifa ceremony done to it is nonsense. I have seen, in
                Cuba
                > >and
                > > > >in
                > > > > > Miami, Espiritistas who do not have Ocha or Ifa tell me that
                > >some
                > > > >object
                > > > > > they have at the door is an Eshu they made. Someone who is
                not
                > >an
                > > > > > initiated priest of ifa or sacerdote of Orisha cannot make
                an
                > >Eshu.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Essentially, since Eshu-Elegbara is the messenger between
                Aye
                > >and
                > > > >Orun,
                > > > > > and since He controls the Central Cosmological point, all
                > >Eleguases
                > > > > > works with Spirits and Egun.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > panche70 wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >There is a spiritual Eshu that works with the muertos can
                > >anyone
                > > > >tell
                > > > > > >me his name???
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >-- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré
                <ekun@m...>
                > > > >wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >>Laroye is the "Trouble Maker." In fact, that is what
                Laroye
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >means:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >>Trouble Maker.
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>Laroye is also the most common Elegua for Children of
                Shango
                > >to
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >have.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >>Here are some things about him, if you ask stupid
                questions
                > > > >during
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >a
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >>session with obi agbon (coconut divination) he will fuck
                with
                > >you
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >and
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >>give you confusing answers. He likes you to be clear
                minded
                > >and
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >serious
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >>when you approach him for divination. He will teach you
                about
                > > > >his
                > > > > > >>character if you do enough Divination with him.
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>Do you have Laroye? Do you know how to do divination with
                > >coco?
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >What
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >>did your godparents tell you about Laroye?
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>Ekun
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>Brujito wrote:
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>
                > > > > > >>>Ellegua Laroye es el ellegua de camino nino en lugar de
                un
                > > > >ellgua
                > > > > > >>>
                > > > > > >>>
                > > > > > >con camino del ellegua viejo...mas?? Brujito
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >>>micksanturio <MICKSANTURIO@A...> wrote:Hi group
                > > > > > >>>Would anyone like to share any information they
                > > > > > >>>have on Eleggua'Laroye'
                > > > > > >>>Thanks Mick
                > > > > > >>>
                > > > > > >>>
                > > > > > >>>
                > > > > > >>>
                > > > > > >>>
                > > > > > >>>
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/santeriaonline/
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > > > > santeriaonline-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                _________________________________________________________________
                > > > Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time
                > >introductory
                > > > offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
                > >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > Expand your wine savvy — and get some great new recipes — at MSN
                Wine.
                > http://wine.msn.com
              • Robinson
                DOES anyone know how i can start in the religion, i live in nyc area, thanks Africanias Editor wrote: Alafia. If you receive Echu
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 29, 2003
                  DOES anyone know how i can start in the religion, i live in nyc area,

                  thanks

                  Africanias Editor <africaniasonline@...> wrote:
                  Alafia.
                  If you receive Echu only can be feeded with eye by a
                  babalawo. If you receive Elegua olochas can feed them
                  with eyebale. Olochas with Pinado make Elegua with
                  "cuchilla" because only pinaderos can feed them.
                  Elegua of Ocha is a ota odara with your head and
                  consecrate upon Lukumi Rule by Osain and speak with
                  Obinu.
                  Ache

                  --- Ewetuga_Atar� wrote:
                  > Some Olorisha claim that an Eshu is a more elemental
                  > force, and an
                  > Elegua is more refined. Some Olorisha say that
                  > Eshu-Elegbara is merely
                  > a praise name and that it is an error to say that
                  > Eshu and Elegua are
                  > different. (Note: Elegua and Elegba are the same
                  > thing but only
                  > different regional pronunciations, just as ekuele,
                  > opele, epele are the
                  > same word with different regional pronunciations.)
                  >
                  > Some Olorisha say that only Babalawos give Eshu, and
                  > only Olorisha give
                  > Elegua.
                  >
                  > The way to learn about the characteristics of the
                  > Elegua you were given
                  > is by living with Him in your house, and doing Obi
                  > Agbon divination.
                  > Overtime, you will understand and learn His
                  > personality.
                  >
                  >
                  > Ekun
                  >
                  >
                  > panche70 wrote:
                  >
                  > >Firstly, what is the difference between the names
                  > Ellegua and Eshu???
                  > >Secondly, I am not on speaking terms with the
                  > person who gave me my
                  > >Ellegua. When he did the reading to see which
                  > Ellegua I was to
                  > >receive it was said that mine works with the muerto
                  > and is spiritual.
                  > >I defently have a Santerio Ellegua this is just one
                  > of his charactics.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  =====
                  AfricaniasOnline
                  Informacion con ashe...kuenda nshila ko
                  http://www.geocities.com/africaniasonline
                  africaniasonline@...

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ewetuga Ataré
                  This is not a religion of web sites. The best way to learn about the caminos of Elegua would be to attend many Itases, and to spend time with old Olorisha and
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 30, 2003
                    This is not a religion of web sites.

                    The best way to learn about the caminos of Elegua would be to attend
                    many Itases, and to spend time with old Olorisha and listen to them.
                    The real truth is that no one needs to know about any path other then
                    the one they were given, and you learn about that Elegua through the
                    process of casting Obi Agbon and living with Him for years.



                    panche70 wrote:

                    >Thanks a bunch for the info. Is there any sites that list the
                    >different caminos of Ellegua???
                    >
                    >
                    >--- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré <ekun@m...>
                    >wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >>Some Olorisha claim that an Eshu is a more elemental force, and an
                    >>Elegua is more refined. Some Olorisha say that Eshu-Elegbara is
                    >>
                    >>
                    >merely
                    >
                    >
                    >>a praise name and that it is an error to say that Eshu and Elegua
                    >>
                    >>
                    >are
                    >
                    >
                    >>different. (Note: Elegua and Elegba are the same thing but only
                    >>different regional pronunciations, just as ekuele, opele, epele are
                    >>
                    >>
                    >the
                    >
                    >
                    >>same word with different regional pronunciations.)
                    >>
                    >>Some Olorisha say that only Babalawos give Eshu, and only Olorisha
                    >>
                    >>
                    >give
                    >
                    >
                    >>Elegua.
                    >>
                    >>The way to learn about the characteristics of the Elegua you were
                    >>
                    >>
                    >given
                    >
                    >
                    >>is by living with Him in your house, and doing Obi Agbon
                    >>
                    >>
                    >divination.
                    >
                    >
                    >>Overtime, you will understand and learn His personality.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>Ekun
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>panche70 wrote:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>Firstly, what is the difference between the names Ellegua and
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >Eshu???
                    >
                    >
                    >>>Secondly, I am not on speaking terms with the person who gave me
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >my
                    >
                    >
                    >>>Ellegua. When he did the reading to see which Ellegua I was to
                    >>>receive it was said that mine works with the muerto and is
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >spiritual.
                    >
                    >
                    >>>I defently have a Santerio Ellegua this is just one of his
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >charactics.
                    >
                    >
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Pablo Gerardo
                    I would have to agree withthe comment, that the religion should not be SELF taught via a web site, or books. One should gather the knowledge from the elders.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 30, 2003
                      I would have to agree withthe comment, that the religion should not
                      be SELF taught via a web site, or books. One should gather the
                      knowledge from the elders.

                      I believe that before anyone recieves an orisha, warriors, elekes..
                      The individual should really understand what he/she is about to do.
                      Understand the ceremony or sacrafice that is expected of one.

                      Once an individual recieves an orisha, warriors, etc... They should
                      learn as much as they from their elders. Do not be afraid to ask
                      questions.

                      Websites, books, and a forum such as this can provide useful
                      information. However, any additional information one obtains should
                      be clearly discussed with ones elder. Allow the elder to explain
                      further the addidtional information you have gathered.

                      Remember, an elder can learn to. The elders may not know something,
                      or even surprise yo with what he / she might know. Again, do NOT be
                      afraid to ask questions.

                      I have always stated, we are here to learn, share knowledge and
                      experience.


                      Paul
                      Omo Obatala










                      - In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré <ekun@m...> wrote:
                      > This is not a religion of web sites.
                      >
                      > The best way to learn about the caminos of Elegua would be to
                      attend
                      > many Itases, and to spend time with old Olorisha and listen to them.
                      > The real truth is that no one needs to know about any path other
                      then
                      > the one they were given, and you learn about that Elegua through
                      the
                      > process of casting Obi Agbon and living with Him for years.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > panche70 wrote:
                      >
                      > >Thanks a bunch for the info. Is there any sites that list the
                      > >different caminos of Ellegua???
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >--- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré <ekun@m...>
                      > >wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>Some Olorisha claim that an Eshu is a more elemental force, and
                      an
                      > >>Elegua is more refined. Some Olorisha say that Eshu-Elegbara is
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >merely
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>a praise name and that it is an error to say that Eshu and Elegua
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >are
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>different. (Note: Elegua and Elegba are the same thing but only
                      > >>different regional pronunciations, just as ekuele, opele, epele
                      are
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >the
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>same word with different regional pronunciations.)
                      > >>
                      > >>Some Olorisha say that only Babalawos give Eshu, and only
                      Olorisha
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >give
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>Elegua.
                      > >>
                      > >>The way to learn about the characteristics of the Elegua you were
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >given
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>is by living with Him in your house, and doing Obi Agbon
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >divination.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>Overtime, you will understand and learn His personality.
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>Ekun
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>panche70 wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>>Firstly, what is the difference between the names Ellegua and
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >Eshu???
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>>Secondly, I am not on speaking terms with the person who gave me
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >my
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>>Ellegua. When he did the reading to see which Ellegua I was to
                      > >>>receive it was said that mine works with the muerto and is
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >spiritual.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>>I defently have a Santerio Ellegua this is just one of his
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >charactics.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • KARELINA HARTWELL
                      Paul- this is unrelated but I wish to communicate with in reference to Salaco. can you please e-mail me at Ochalobbi@yahoo.com. I hope baba has been good to
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 31, 2003
                        Paul- this is unrelated but I wish to communicate with
                        in reference to Salaco.
                        can you please e-mail me at Ochalobbi@....
                        I hope baba has been good to you since the last time
                        we seen one another in Houston, what four years ago.
                        How are your god children, Evie, etc...
                        Write soon.
                        Much love your sister Ochalobi
                        Karelina
                        --- Pablo Gerardo <santeriaonline@...> wrote:
                        > I would have to agree withthe comment, that the
                        > religion should not
                        > be SELF taught via a web site, or books. One should
                        > gather the
                        > knowledge from the elders.
                        >
                        > I believe that before anyone recieves an orisha,
                        > warriors, elekes..
                        > The individual should really understand what he/she
                        > is about to do.
                        > Understand the ceremony or sacrafice that is
                        > expected of one.
                        >
                        > Once an individual recieves an orisha, warriors,
                        > etc... They should
                        > learn as much as they from their elders. Do not be
                        > afraid to ask
                        > questions.
                        >
                        > Websites, books, and a forum such as this can
                        > provide useful
                        > information. However, any additional information one
                        > obtains should
                        > be clearly discussed with ones elder. Allow the
                        > elder to explain
                        > further the addidtional information you have
                        > gathered.
                        >
                        > Remember, an elder can learn to. The elders may not
                        > know something,
                        > or even surprise yo with what he / she might know.
                        > Again, do NOT be
                        > afraid to ask questions.
                        >
                        > I have always stated, we are here to learn, share
                        > knowledge and
                        > experience.
                        >
                        >
                        > Paul
                        > Omo Obatala
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > - In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Atar�
                        > <ekun@m...> wrote:
                        > > This is not a religion of web sites.
                        > >
                        > > The best way to learn about the caminos of Elegua
                        > would be to
                        > attend
                        > > many Itases, and to spend time with old Olorisha
                        > and listen to them.
                        > > The real truth is that no one needs to know about
                        > any path other
                        > then
                        > > the one they were given, and you learn about that
                        > Elegua through
                        > the
                        > > process of casting Obi Agbon and living with Him
                        > for years.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > panche70 wrote:
                        > >
                        > > >Thanks a bunch for the info. Is there any sites
                        > that list the
                        > > >different caminos of Ellegua???
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >--- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga
                        > Atar� <ekun@m...>
                        > > >wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>Some Olorisha claim that an Eshu is a more
                        > elemental force, and
                        > an
                        > > >>Elegua is more refined. Some Olorisha say that
                        > Eshu-Elegbara is
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >merely
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>a praise name and that it is an error to say
                        > that Eshu and Elegua
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >are
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>different. (Note: Elegua and Elegba are the
                        > same thing but only
                        > > >>different regional pronunciations, just as
                        > ekuele, opele, epele
                        > are
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >the
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>same word with different regional
                        > pronunciations.)
                        > > >>
                        > > >>Some Olorisha say that only Babalawos give Eshu,
                        > and only
                        > Olorisha
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >give
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>Elegua.
                        > > >>
                        > > >>The way to learn about the characteristics of
                        > the Elegua you were
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >given
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>is by living with Him in your house, and doing
                        > Obi Agbon
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >divination.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>Overtime, you will understand and learn His
                        > personality.
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >>Ekun
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >>panche70 wrote:
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >>
                        > > >>>Firstly, what is the difference between the
                        > names Ellegua and
                        > > >>>
                        > > >>>
                        > > >Eshu???
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>>Secondly, I am not on speaking terms with the
                        > person who gave me
                        > > >>>
                        > > >>>
                        > > >my
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>>Ellegua. When he did the reading to see which
                        > Ellegua I was to
                        > > >>>receive it was said that mine works with the
                        > muerto and is
                        > > >>>
                        > > >>>
                        > > >spiritual.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>>I defently have a Santerio Ellegua this is just
                        > one of his
                        > > >>>
                        > > >>>
                        > > >charactics.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >>>
                        > > >>>
                        > > >>>
                        > > >>>
                        > > >>>
                        > > >>>
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > ---------------------~-->
                        > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP,
                        > Epson,
                        === message truncated ===


                        =====
                        WIsdom is more about opening than about actually having answers. The truth will appear to the open soul. Only in the wisdom of humility do we truly see through our knowledge to the mirror beneath.

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                        Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
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                      • panche70
                        Of course I am getting to know my personal Ellegua by living with him and talking to him. I just wanted the general information on the camino. I know the only
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 2, 2004
                          Of course I am getting to know my personal Ellegua by living with him
                          and talking to him. I just wanted the general information on the
                          camino. I know the only way to get to know your Ellegua is through
                          the experiences you have with him.


                          --- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, "Pablo Gerardo"
                          <santeriaonline@y...> wrote:
                          > I would have to agree withthe comment, that the religion should not
                          > be SELF taught via a web site, or books. One should gather the
                          > knowledge from the elders.
                          >
                          > I believe that before anyone recieves an orisha, warriors, elekes..
                          > The individual should really understand what he/she is about to do.
                          > Understand the ceremony or sacrafice that is expected of one.
                          >
                          > Once an individual recieves an orisha, warriors, etc... They should
                          > learn as much as they from their elders. Do not be afraid to ask
                          > questions.
                          >
                          > Websites, books, and a forum such as this can provide useful
                          > information. However, any additional information one obtains should
                          > be clearly discussed with ones elder. Allow the elder to explain
                          > further the addidtional information you have gathered.
                          >
                          > Remember, an elder can learn to. The elders may not know something,
                          > or even surprise yo with what he / she might know. Again, do NOT be
                          > afraid to ask questions.
                          >
                          > I have always stated, we are here to learn, share knowledge and
                          > experience.
                          >
                          >
                          > Paul
                          > Omo Obatala
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > - In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré <ekun@m...>
                          wrote:
                          > > This is not a religion of web sites.
                          > >
                          > > The best way to learn about the caminos of Elegua would be to
                          > attend
                          > > many Itases, and to spend time with old Olorisha and listen to
                          them.
                          > > The real truth is that no one needs to know about any path other
                          > then
                          > > the one they were given, and you learn about that Elegua through
                          > the
                          > > process of casting Obi Agbon and living with Him for years.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > panche70 wrote:
                          > >
                          > > >Thanks a bunch for the info. Is there any sites that list the
                          > > >different caminos of Ellegua???
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >--- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré <ekun@m...>
                          > > >wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >>Some Olorisha claim that an Eshu is a more elemental force, and
                          > an
                          > > >>Elegua is more refined. Some Olorisha say that Eshu-Elegbara
                          is
                          > > >>
                          > > >>
                          > > >merely
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >>a praise name and that it is an error to say that Eshu and
                          Elegua
                          > > >>
                          > > >>
                          > > >are
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >>different. (Note: Elegua and Elegba are the same thing but
                          only
                          > > >>different regional pronunciations, just as ekuele, opele, epele
                          > are
                          > > >>
                          > > >>
                          > > >the
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >>same word with different regional pronunciations.)
                          > > >>
                          > > >>Some Olorisha say that only Babalawos give Eshu, and only
                          > Olorisha
                          > > >>
                          > > >>
                          > > >give
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >>Elegua.
                          > > >>
                          > > >>The way to learn about the characteristics of the Elegua you
                          were
                          > > >>
                          > > >>
                          > > >given
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >>is by living with Him in your house, and doing Obi Agbon
                          > > >>
                          > > >>
                          > > >divination.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >>Overtime, you will understand and learn His personality.
                          > > >>
                          > > >>
                          > > >>Ekun
                          > > >>
                          > > >>
                          > > >>panche70 wrote:
                          > > >>
                          > > >>
                          > > >>
                          > > >>>Firstly, what is the difference between the names Ellegua and
                          > > >>>
                          > > >>>
                          > > >Eshu???
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >>>Secondly, I am not on speaking terms with the person who gave
                          me
                          > > >>>
                          > > >>>
                          > > >my
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >>>Ellegua. When he did the reading to see which Ellegua I was to
                          > > >>>receive it was said that mine works with the muerto and is
                          > > >>>
                          > > >>>
                          > > >spiritual.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >>>I defently have a Santerio Ellegua this is just one of his
                          > > >>>
                          > > >>>
                          > > >charactics.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >>>
                          > > >>>
                          > > >>>
                          > > >>>
                          > > >>>
                          > > >>>
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • panche70
                          One more thing I have godparents and I know that I am to go to them with my questions and to learn anything that I am curious about. I just thought if this is
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 2, 2004
                            One more thing I have godparents and I know that I am to go to them
                            with my questions and to learn anything that I am curious about. I
                            just thought if this is a forum for people in santeria I could get
                            some insight on the subject. I follow my Ile's traditions of course!


                            --- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, "Pablo Gerardo"
                            <santeriaonline@y...> wrote:
                            > I would have to agree withthe comment, that the religion should not
                            > be SELF taught via a web site, or books. One should gather the
                            > knowledge from the elders.
                            >
                            > I believe that before anyone recieves an orisha, warriors, elekes..
                            > The individual should really understand what he/she is about to do.
                            > Understand the ceremony or sacrafice that is expected of one.
                            >
                            > Once an individual recieves an orisha, warriors, etc... They should
                            > learn as much as they from their elders. Do not be afraid to ask
                            > questions.
                            >
                            > Websites, books, and a forum such as this can provide useful
                            > information. However, any additional information one obtains should
                            > be clearly discussed with ones elder. Allow the elder to explain
                            > further the addidtional information you have gathered.
                            >
                            > Remember, an elder can learn to. The elders may not know something,
                            > or even surprise yo with what he / she might know. Again, do NOT be
                            > afraid to ask questions.
                            >
                            > I have always stated, we are here to learn, share knowledge and
                            > experience.
                            >
                            >
                            > Paul
                            > Omo Obatala
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > - In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré <ekun@m...>
                            wrote:
                            > > This is not a religion of web sites.
                            > >
                            > > The best way to learn about the caminos of Elegua would be to
                            > attend
                            > > many Itases, and to spend time with old Olorisha and listen to
                            them.
                            > > The real truth is that no one needs to know about any path other
                            > then
                            > > the one they were given, and you learn about that Elegua through
                            > the
                            > > process of casting Obi Agbon and living with Him for years.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > panche70 wrote:
                            > >
                            > > >Thanks a bunch for the info. Is there any sites that list the
                            > > >different caminos of Ellegua???
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >--- In santeriaonline@yahoogroups.com, Ewetuga Ataré <ekun@m...>
                            > > >wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>Some Olorisha claim that an Eshu is a more elemental force, and
                            > an
                            > > >>Elegua is more refined. Some Olorisha say that Eshu-Elegbara
                            is
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >merely
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>a praise name and that it is an error to say that Eshu and
                            Elegua
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >are
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>different. (Note: Elegua and Elegba are the same thing but
                            only
                            > > >>different regional pronunciations, just as ekuele, opele, epele
                            > are
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >the
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>same word with different regional pronunciations.)
                            > > >>
                            > > >>Some Olorisha say that only Babalawos give Eshu, and only
                            > Olorisha
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >give
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>Elegua.
                            > > >>
                            > > >>The way to learn about the characteristics of the Elegua you
                            were
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >given
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>is by living with Him in your house, and doing Obi Agbon
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >divination.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>Overtime, you will understand and learn His personality.
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>Ekun
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>panche70 wrote:
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>
                            > > >>>Firstly, what is the difference between the names Ellegua and
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >Eshu???
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>>Secondly, I am not on speaking terms with the person who gave
                            me
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >my
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>>Ellegua. When he did the reading to see which Ellegua I was to
                            > > >>>receive it was said that mine works with the muerto and is
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >spiritual.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>>I defently have a Santerio Ellegua this is just one of his
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >charactics.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >>>
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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