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Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

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  • johnamos@fsmail.net
    Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 18 12:42 PM

      Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery

      .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.

      Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.

      Safe flying,

      John




      ========================================
      Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
      From: rexnstudio@...
      To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
      Cc:
      Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

       

      I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
       
      rex



      -----Original Message-----
      From: Andreas Konzelmann
      To: sakaos
      Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
      Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

       
      Hi,
      It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
      I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
      The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
      recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
      to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
      same material as for the front struts.

      Andreas

      Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
      > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
      >
      > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
      > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >



      =
    • gordon
      He s been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive.
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 18 3:12 PM
        He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.

        Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.

        Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.

        Gordon



        --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@... wrote:
        >
        > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
        > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
        > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
        > Safe flying,
        > John
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ========================================
        > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
        > From: rexnstudio@...
        > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
        > Cc:
        > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
        >
        >
        > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
        >
        > rex
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Andreas Konzelmann
        > To: sakaos
        > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
        > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi,
        > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
        > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
        > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
        > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
        > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
        > same material as for the front struts.
        >
        > Andreas
        >
        > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
        > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
        > >
        > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
        > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
      • Kimber Bennett
        Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it s design, with a real risk of over stressing it, reason for the ballistic chute ! That s his job
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 18 4:46 PM
          Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"!  That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot.  Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment.   That gentleman inspired me and many others .  If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge!   He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!  
           
          > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
          > From: redrag_ltd@...
          > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
          > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
          >
          > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
          >
          > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
          >
          > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
          >
          > Gordon
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@... wrote:
          > >
          > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
          > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
          > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
          > > Safe flying,
          > > John
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ========================================
          > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
          > > From: rexnstudio@...
          > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
          > > Cc:
          > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
          > >
          > >
          > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
          > >
          > > rex
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
          > > To: sakaos
          > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
          > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi,
          > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
          > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
          > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
          > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
          > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
          > > same material as for the front struts.
          > >
          > > Andreas
          > >
          > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
          > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
          > > >
          > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
          > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------------
          > > >
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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          >
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        • gordon
          Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a stunt pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 19 3:51 AM
            Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.

            The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.

            Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.

            I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.

            As i said we all have our opinion!

            Gordon

            --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett <soaringheights@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
            >
            > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
            > > From: redrag_ltd@...
            > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
            > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
            > >
            > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
            > >
            > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
            > >
            > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
            > >
            > > Gordon
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
            > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
            > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
            > > > Safe flying,
            > > > John
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ========================================
            > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
            > > > From: rexnstudio@
            > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Cc:
            > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
            > > >
            > > > rex
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
            > > > To: sakaos
            > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
            > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Hi,
            > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
            > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
            > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
            > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
            > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
            > > > same material as for the front struts.
            > > >
            > > > Andreas
            > > >
            > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
            > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
            > > > >
            > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
            > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > ------------------------------------
            > > > >
            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Juan Amestoy
            Dear Gordon,Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.How do you know that the
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 20 5:22 AM
              Dear Gordon,

              Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.

              How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?

              How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?

              Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???

              Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?

              For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).

              So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.

              The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.

              Happy flying,

              Juan

              PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.




              To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
              From: redrag_ltd@...
              Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
              Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

               
              Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.

              The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.

              Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.

              I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.

              As i said we all have our opinion!

              Gordon

              --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett <soaringheights@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
              >
              > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
              > > From: redrag_ltd@...
              > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
              > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
              > >
              > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
              > >
              > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
              > >
              > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
              > >
              > > Gordon
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
              > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
              > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
              > > > Safe flying,
              > > > John
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ========================================
              > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
              > > > From: rexnstudio@
              > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Cc:
              > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
              > > >
              > > > rex
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
              > > > To: sakaos
              > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
              > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi,
              > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
              > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
              > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
              > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
              > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
              > > > same material as for the front struts.
              > > >
              > > > Andreas
              > > >
              > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
              > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
              > > > >
              > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
              > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > ------------------------------------
              > > > >
              > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >


            • johnamos@fsmail.net
              I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra information, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 20 11:57 AM

                I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra information, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.

                John



                ========================================
                Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                From: "Juan Amestoy"
                To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                Cc:
                Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                 

                Dear Gordon,


                Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.

                How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?

                How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?

                Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???

                Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?

                For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).

                So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.

                The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.

                Happy flying,

                Juan

                PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.




                To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                From: redrag_ltd@...
                Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                 
                Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.

                The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.

                Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.

                I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.

                As i said we all have our opinion!

                Gordon

                --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                >
                >
                > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                >
                > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                > > From: redrag_ltd@...
                > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                > >
                > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                > >
                > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                > >
                > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                > >
                > > Gordon
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                > > > Safe flying,
                > > > John
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ========================================
                > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                > > > From: rexnstudio@
                > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Cc:
                > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                > > >
                > > > rex
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                > > > To: sakaos
                > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Hi,
                > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                > > > same material as for the front struts.
                > > >
                > > > Andreas
                > > >
                > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                > > > >
                > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ------------------------------------
                > > > >
                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >




                =
              • juanmiguelgs@yahoo.com
                Where can I see the viedoclip. Juan This message was sent from a BlackBerry® from TiGo. ... From: johnamos@fsmail.net Sender: sakaos@yahoogroups.com Date:
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 20 11:58 AM
                  Where can I see the viedoclip.

                  Juan

                  This message was sent from a BlackBerry® from TiGo.


                  From: johnamos@...
                  Sender: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:57:59 +0200 (CEST)
                  To: <sakaos@yahoogroups.com>
                  ReplyTo: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                   

                  I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra information, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.

                  John



                  ========================================
                  Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                  From: "Juan Amestoy"
                  To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc:
                  Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                   

                  Dear Gordon,


                  Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.

                  How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?

                  How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?

                  Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???

                  Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?

                  For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).

                  So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.

                  The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.

                  Happy flying,

                  Juan

                  PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.




                  To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                  From: redrag_ltd@...
                  Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                  Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                   
                  Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.

                  The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.

                  Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.

                  I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.

                  As i said we all have our opinion!

                  Gordon

                  --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                  >
                  > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                  > > From: redrag_ltd@...
                  > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                  > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                  > >
                  > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                  > >
                  > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                  > >
                  > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                  > >
                  > > Gordon
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                  > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                  > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                  > > > Safe flying,
                  > > > John
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ========================================
                  > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                  > > > From: rexnstudio@
                  > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Cc:
                  > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                  > > >
                  > > > rex
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                  > > > To: sakaos
                  > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                  > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi,
                  > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                  > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                  > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                  > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                  > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                  > > > same material as for the front struts.
                  > > >
                  > > > Andreas
                  > > >
                  > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                  > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                  > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ------------------------------------
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ------------------------------------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >




                  =
                • Juan Amestoy
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnHuIET4P2s To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com From: juanmiguelgs@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:58:21 +0000 Subject: Re: [sakaos]
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 20 12:09 PM
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnHuIET4P2s

                    To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                    From: juanmiguelgs@...
                    Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:58:21 +0000
                    Subject: Re: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                     
                    Where can I see the viedoclip.

                    Juan
                    This message was sent from a BlackBerry® from TiGo.

                    From: johnamos@...
                    Sender: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:57:59 +0200 (CEST)
                    To: <sakaos@yahoogroups.com>
                    ReplyTo: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                     

                    I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra information, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                    John




                    ========================================
                    Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                    From: "Juan Amestoy"
                    To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                    Cc:
                    Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                     
                    Dear Gordon,

                    Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.

                    How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?

                    How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?

                    Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???

                    Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?

                    For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).

                    So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.

                    The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.

                    Happy flying,

                    Juan

                    PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.




                    To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                    From: redrag_ltd@...
                    Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                    Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                     
                    Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.

                    The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.

                    Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.

                    I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.

                    As i said we all have our opinion!

                    Gordon

                    --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                    >
                    > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                    > > From: redrag_ltd@...
                    > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                    > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                    > >
                    > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                    > >
                    > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                    > >
                    > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                    > >
                    > > Gordon
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                    > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                    > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                    > > > Safe flying,
                    > > > John
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ========================================
                    > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                    > > > From: rexnstudio@
                    > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Cc:
                    > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                    > > >
                    > > > rex
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                    > > > To: sakaos
                    > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                    > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi,
                    > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                    > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                    > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                    > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                    > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                    > > > same material as for the front struts.
                    > > >
                    > > > Andreas
                    > > >
                    > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                    > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                    > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ------------------------------------
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >





                    =

                  • juanmiguelgs@yahoo.com
                    I can only comment that, just like race car drivers, moto gp riders or any other profetional motorsport performers, the envelop has to be pushed to the limits
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 20 8:08 PM
                      I can only comment that, just like race car drivers, moto gp riders or any other profetional motorsport performers, the envelop has to be pushed to the limits and eventualy something might go wrong. I have no doubt that this pilot is a well trained pilot and as we say here in Guatemala..."If you can walk out of an emergency, you had a sucksesfull landing". He had a parachute on the plane because there was a chance of something like this to happend, so this team was prepared for it. Congratulations to the pilot on a well performed show and emergency landing, and if he is ever in Guatemala, I will glandly let him fly my S-10.

                      Juan

                      This message was sent from a BlackBerry® from TiGo.


                      From: Juan Amestoy <juanames@...>
                      Sender: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:09:02 +0000
                      To: <sakaos@yahoogroups.com>
                      ReplyTo: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                       

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnHuIET4P2s


                      To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                      From: juanmiguelgs@...
                      Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:58:21 +0000
                      Subject: Re: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                       
                      Where can I see the viedoclip.

                      Juan
                      This message was sent from a BlackBerry® from TiGo.

                      From: johnamos@...
                      Sender: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:57:59 +0200 (CEST)
                      To: <sakaos@yahoogroups.com>
                      ReplyTo: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                       

                      I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra information, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                      John




                      ========================================
                      Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                      From: "Juan Amestoy"
                      To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                      Cc:
                      Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                       
                      Dear Gordon,

                      Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.

                      How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?

                      How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?

                      Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???

                      Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?

                      For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).

                      So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.

                      The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.

                      Happy flying,

                      Juan

                      PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.




                      To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                      From: redrag_ltd@...
                      Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                      Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                       
                      Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.

                      The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.

                      Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.

                      I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.

                      As i said we all have our opinion!

                      Gordon

                      --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                      >
                      > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                      > > From: redrag_ltd@...
                      > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                      > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                      > >
                      > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                      > >
                      > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                      > >
                      > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                      > >
                      > > Gordon
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                      > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                      > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                      > > > Safe flying,
                      > > > John
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ========================================
                      > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                      > > > From: rexnstudio@
                      > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Cc:
                      > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                      > > >
                      > > > rex
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                      > > > To: sakaos
                      > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                      > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Hi,
                      > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                      > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                      > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                      > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                      > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                      > > > same material as for the front struts.
                      > > >
                      > > > Andreas
                      > > >
                      > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                      > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                      > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ------------------------------------
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >





                      =

                    • Ernesto Acerbo
                      Gordon,               Please send to me the information that you have, becouse I see the deployment in the show , I have the plane in my hangar, I
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 22 7:45 PM
                        Gordon,
                                      Please send to me the information that you have, becouse I see the deployment in the show , I have the plane in my hangar, I spoke with Dino, the Pilot of the S9 LV-X-331, the aircraft that had the structural failure.
                                      He had 125 mph, not more than two G and loos the wing, today we can not found an cause  without any put an probably cause in our answer. the gorss weight in this day was 366 Kg, the MTOW weight of the S-10 in Aerobatic category, this informations is for Randy too.
                                      Tomorrow we going to start with the JIACCA people ( your NTSB) the investigations.
                         
                                      For all members of the forum, we are sure that  we going to determinate the cause.
                         
                                      Today I  have alone questions, if you have informations please send to me, or are you an "charlatan de feria"?
                         
                        Sincerely
                         
                        Ernesto Acerbo


                        --- El jue 19-ago-10, gordon <redrag_ltd@...> escribió:

                        De: gordon <redrag_ltd@...>
                        Asunto: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                        Para: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                        Fecha: jueves, 19 de agosto de 2010, 10:51

                         
                        Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.

                        The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.

                        Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.

                        I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.

                        As i said we all have our opinion!

                        Gordon

                        --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett <soaringheights@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                        >
                        > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                        > > From: redrag_ltd@...
                        > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                        > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                        > >
                        > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                        > >
                        > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                        > >
                        > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                        > >
                        > > Gordon
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                        > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                        > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                        > > > Safe flying,
                        > > > John
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ========================================
                        > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                        > > > From: rexnstudio@
                        > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Cc:
                        > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                        > > >
                        > > > rex
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                        > > > To: sakaos
                        > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                        > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Hi,
                        > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                        > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                        > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                        > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                        > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                        > > > same material as for the front struts.
                        > > >
                        > > > Andreas
                        > > >
                        > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                        > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                        > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ------------------------------------
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ------------------------------------
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >


                         
                      • Louis Ehlers
                        Mr. Acerbo, Wish you the best of luck in finding the source of the problem. Best news is the pilot lived to fly again. This personal attracts going back and
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 23 4:58 AM
                          
                          Mr. Acerbo,
                           
                          Wish you the best of luck in finding the source of the problem. Best news is the pilot lived to fly again. This personal attracts going back and forth between a few guys needs to stop before it gets ugly. Sorry if we jump on our soap box to fast, just a group of guys disusing the aviation advents as we see it.
                           
                          Louis
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 9:45 PM
                          Subject: Re: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                           

                          Gordon,
                                        Please send to me the information that you have, becouse I see the deployment in the show , I have the plane in my hangar, I spoke with Dino, the Pilot of the S9 LV-X-331, the aircraft that had the structural failure.
                                        He had 125 mph, not more than two G and loos the wing, today we can not found an cause  without any put an probably cause in our answer. the gorss weight in this day was 366 Kg, the MTOW weight of the S-10 in Aerobatic category, this informations is for Randy too.
                                        Tomorrow we going to start with the JIACCA people ( your NTSB) the investigations.
                           
                                        For all members of the forum, we are sure that  we going to determinate the cause.
                           
                                        Today I  have alone questions, if you have informations please send to me, or are you an "charlatan de feria"?
                           
                          Sincerely
                           
                          Ernesto Acerbo


                          --- El jue 19-ago-10, gordon <redrag_ltd@...> escribió:

                          De: gordon <redrag_ltd@...>
                          Asunto: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                          Para: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                          Fecha: jueves, 19 de agosto de 2010, 10:51

                           
                          Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.

                          The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.

                          Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.

                          I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.

                          As i said we all have our opinion!

                          Gordon

                          --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett <soaringheights@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                          >
                          > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                          > > From: redrag_ltd@...
                          > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                          > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                          > >
                          > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                          > >
                          > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                          > >
                          > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                          > >
                          > > Gordon
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                          > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                          > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                          > > > Safe flying,
                          > > > John
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ========================================
                          > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                          > > > From: rexnstudio@
                          > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Cc:
                          > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                          > > >
                          > > > rex
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                          > > > To: sakaos
                          > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                          > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi,
                          > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                          > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                          > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                          > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                          > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                          > > > same material as for the front struts.
                          > > >
                          > > > Andreas
                          > > >
                          > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                          > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                          > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ------------------------------------
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >


                           

                        • Dave Fisher
                          http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=237 ... From: Ernesto Acerbo To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 10:45 PM Subject: Re:
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 23 2:13 PM
                            
                             
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 10:45 PM
                            Subject: Re: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                             

                            Gordon,
                                          Please send to me the information that you have, becouse I see the deployment in the show , I have the plane in my hangar, I spoke with Dino, the Pilot of the S9 LV-X-331, the aircraft that had the structural failure.
                                          He had 125 mph, not more than two G and loos the wing, today we can not found an cause  without any put an probably cause in our answer. the gorss weight in this day was 366 Kg, the MTOW weight of the S-10 in Aerobatic category, this informations is for Randy too.
                                          Tomorrow we going to start with the JIACCA people ( your NTSB) the investigations.
                             
                                          For all members of the forum, we are sure that  we going to determinate the cause.
                             
                                          Today I  have alone questions, if you have informations please send to me, or are you an "charlatan de feria"?
                             
                            Sincerely
                             
                            Ernesto Acerbo


                            --- El jue 19-ago-10, gordon <redrag_ltd@...> escribió:

                            De: gordon <redrag_ltd@...>
                            Asunto: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                            Para: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                            Fecha: jueves, 19 de agosto de 2010, 10:51

                             
                            Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.

                            The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.

                            Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.

                            I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.

                            As i said we all have our opinion!

                            Gordon

                            --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett <soaringheights@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                            >
                            > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                            > > From: redrag_ltd@...
                            > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                            > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                            > >
                            > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                            > >
                            > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                            > >
                            > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                            > >
                            > > Gordon
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                            > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                            > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                            > > > Safe flying,
                            > > > John
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ========================================
                            > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                            > > > From: rexnstudio@
                            > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > Cc:
                            > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                            > > >
                            > > > rex
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                            > > > To: sakaos
                            > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                            > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi,
                            > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                            > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                            > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                            > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                            > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                            > > > same material as for the front struts.
                            > > >
                            > > > Andreas
                            > > >
                            > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                            > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                            > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > ------------------------------------
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >


                             

                          • danutz_coman
                            Hello! I m new to this group. Sorry my english spelling if i ll make any mistakes. This subject interests me greatly because I wanted to purchase a Rans S-9
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 25 9:37 AM
                              Hello! I'm new to this group. Sorry my english spelling if i'll make any mistakes. This subject interests me greatly because I wanted to purchase a Rans S-9 Chaos in the next months or so. But now i come to wonder: is it really worthy? I mean I know is a great plane, but is the second structural failure from a S9 that I hear about. In one year.
                              http://www.thekathrynreport.com/2009/08/rans-s-9-plane-crashes-in-monroe-county.html
                              The link above will give you an idea about what I am talking about.

                              Mr. Ernesto you said that the plane was new. Maybe the latest S9's aren't so well build? Or the materials of witch this one was build off would have other properties than required?
                              I watched on Youtube the aerobatics performed by Mr. Falistocco and his team and i'm very impressed. Great pilots no doubt about that. Also i know about their achievements related to inverted fuel and oil systems for the Rotax 912 engines. The aerobatics that they do are somewhere between advanced and unlimited. I know that low mass means low energy giving less loading to the plane and pilot, but the program performed by Moline stressed the airframe and wings a lot in both ways (+/-). That raises another question. Does the airplane can handle so much? Or he discovered the worst way possible the limitations of this little aerobatic plane?
                              Did the Hangar del Cielo team made important structural changes to the airplane flown by Dino Moline in order to achieve better handling and crisp manouvers like an unlimited aerobatic plane should have, neglecting the loads that the Chaos can actually handle?
                              If not, the next question raised is if maybe the fixation method for the wings to the airframe used for Rans S9 and S10 is inadequate for such manouvers and loadings and if so can it be improved?
                              Sorry guys if i bother you with so many question. Thank you if answering and I wish for all of you the best.
                              Clear skies, runways and lots of safe landings.
                            • Ernesto Acerbo
                              Dear Dantz,                   I will going to send to all memnbers of the foro, in an or two weeks, an structural and aerodinamics infrom
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 27 8:44 PM
                                Dear Dantz,
                                                  I will going to send to all memnbers of the foro, in an or two weeks, an structural and aerodinamics infrom about the wing of the s9, with all states of tension at -4.6 G and +9 G ( the ultimate loads) .
                                 
                                                  Now a days we are making many structurals studies and prof  for investigaste the structural failure of S9 of Dino.
                                                  If this studies we need make change iin the wing we goinf to send this information for all
                                Sincerely
                                 
                                Ernesto
                                 
                                             

                                --- El mié 25-ago-10, danutz_coman <danutz_coman@...> escribió:

                                De: danutz_coman <danutz_coman@...>
                                Asunto: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                Para: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                Fecha: miércoles, 25 de agosto de 2010, 16:37

                                 


                                Hello! I'm new to this group. Sorry my english spelling if i'll make any mistakes. This subject interests me greatly because I wanted to purchase a Rans S-9 Chaos in the next months or so. But now i come to wonder: is it really worthy? I mean I know is a great plane, but is the second structural failure from a S9 that I hear about. In one year.
                                http://www.thekathrynreport.com/2009/08/rans-s-9-plane-crashes-in-monroe-county.html
                                The link above will give you an idea about what I am talking about.

                                Mr. Ernesto you said that the plane was new. Maybe the latest S9's aren't so well build? Or the materials of witch this one was build off would have other properties than required?
                                I watched on Youtube the aerobatics performed by Mr. Falistocco and his team and i'm very impressed. Great pilots no doubt about that. Also i know about their achievements related to inverted fuel and oil systems for the Rotax 912 engines. The aerobatics that they do are somewhere between advanced and unlimited. I know that low mass means low energy giving less loading to the plane and pilot, but the program performed by Moline stressed the airframe and wings a lot in both ways (+/-). That raises another question. Does the airplane can handle so much? Or he discovered the worst way possible the limitations of this little aerobatic plane?
                                Did the Hangar del Cielo team made important structural changes to the airplane flown by Dino Moline in order to achieve better handling and crisp manouvers like an unlimited aerobatic plane should have, neglecting the loads that the Chaos can actually handle?
                                If not, the next question raised is if maybe the fixation method for the wings to the airframe used for Rans S9 and S10 is inadequate for such manouvers and loadings and if so can it be improved?
                                Sorry guys if i bother you with so many question. Thank you if answering and I wish for all of you the best.
                                Clear skies, runways and lots of safe landings.


                                 
                              • gordon
                                John The maneuver carried out in the video is relatively mild and not the root cause of the wing detaching, it will just have been the straw that finaly broke
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 28 1:46 PM
                                  John

                                  The maneuver carried out in the video is relatively mild and not the root cause of the wing detaching, it will just have been the straw that finaly broke the camels back.

                                  "charlatan de feria"? if someone wants to insult me at least have the good manners to do it in a language that I can understand !!!!

                                  Gordon

                                  --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra information, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                                  > John
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ========================================
                                  > Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                                  > From: "Juan Amestoy"
                                  > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Cc:
                                  > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Dear Gordon,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Happy flying,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Juan
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                  > From: redrag_ltd@...
                                  > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                                  > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.
                                  >
                                  > The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.
                                  >
                                  > Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.
                                  >
                                  > I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.
                                  >
                                  > As i said we all have our opinion!
                                  >
                                  > Gordon
                                  >
                                  > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                                  > >
                                  > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                  > > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                                  > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                  > > >
                                  > > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Gordon
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                                  > > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                                  > > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                                  > > > > Safe flying,
                                  > > > > John
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ========================================
                                  > > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                                  > > > > From: rexnstudio@
                                  > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > > Cc:
                                  > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > rex
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                                  > > > > To: sakaos
                                  > > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                                  > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Hi,
                                  > > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                                  > > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                                  > > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                                  > > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                                  > > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                                  > > > > same material as for the front struts.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Andreas
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                                  > > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                                  > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ------------------------------------
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Juan M. Amestoy
                                  Well Gordon, Taking into account the way in which you judged the Pilot without any logical argument based on any factual information, I would say that
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Aug 28 2:11 PM
                                    Well Gordon,

                                    Taking into account the way in which you judged the Pilot without any logical argument based on any factual information, I would say that "Charlatan de Feria", rather than an insult, was a nice compliment from Ernesto...

                                    It would be great if you answer the various questions presented to you in the last few messages.

                                    Regards,

                                    Juan

                                    On 28 Aug 2010, at 22:46, "gordon" <redrag_ltd@...> wrote:

                                     


                                    John

                                    The maneuver carried out in the video is relatively mild and not the root cause of the wing detaching, it will just have been the straw that finaly broke the camels back.

                                    "charlatan de feria"? if someone wants to insult me at least have the good manners to do it in a language that I can understand !!!!

                                    Gordon

                                    --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra information, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                                    > John
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ========================================
                                    > Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                                    > From: "Juan Amestoy"
                                    > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Cc:
                                    > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Dear Gordon,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Happy flying,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Juan
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: redrag_ltd@...
                                    > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                                    > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.
                                    >
                                    > The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.
                                    >
                                    > Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.
                                    >
                                    > I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.
                                    >
                                    > As i said we all have our opinion!
                                    >
                                    > Gordon
                                    >
                                    > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                                    > >
                                    > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                    > > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                                    > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                    > > >
                                    > > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Gordon
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                                    > > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                                    > > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                                    > > > > Safe flying,
                                    > > > > John
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ========================================
                                    > > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                                    > > > > From: rexnstudio@
                                    > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > Cc:
                                    > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > rex
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                                    > > > > To: sakaos
                                    > > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                                    > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hi,
                                    > > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                                    > > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                                    > > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                                    > > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                                    > > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                                    > > > > same material as for the front struts.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Andreas
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                                    > > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                                    > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ------------------------------------
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >

                                  • gordon
                                    Juan I am quite entitled to my opinion, as are you, my opinion is based on many factors. I am not going to endlessly debate it just because you have a
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Aug 29 4:05 AM
                                      Juan

                                      I am quite entitled to my opinion, as are you, my opinion is based on many factors. I am not going to endlessly debate it just because you have a differing opinion, you are very much entitled to share a different viewpoint.

                                      Given the intense level flying the aircraft has been subjected to, and the varied potential contributing reasons why such a failure might occur, what I have not expressed an opinion on is the standard of construction of the aircraft, as I have no knowledge of that, but a poor standard of construction will affect the structural integrity both short and long term. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the ongoing inspection and maintenance regime the aircraft was subject to, as I have no information on that either, but it is clear that whatever inspection program was in place it did not reveal the latent defect that resulted in the wing detaching. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the fitting of a ballistic parachute, though it is obvious that without one the end result here would have been far more tragic for all concerned.

                                      Why don't we just wait and see what your investigating authorities come up with in their report?? If my opinion is wrong then I will accept that, until that time my opinion remains; The aircraft has been subjected to in-flight stresses outside its original design criteria over a continuing period culminating in the structural, probably fatigue, failure of a critical component. No opinion is offered on circumstantial influences such as the build quality, or the appropriateness of the continued airworthiness inspection regime.

                                      Gordon


                                      --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, "Juan M. Amestoy" <juanames@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Well Gordon,
                                      >
                                      > Taking into account the way in which you judged the Pilot without any logical argument based on any factual information, I would say that "Charlatan de Feria", rather than an insult, was a nice compliment from Ernesto...
                                      >
                                      > It would be great if you answer the various questions presented to you in the last few messages.
                                      >
                                      > Regards,
                                      >
                                      > Juan
                                      >
                                      > On 28 Aug 2010, at 22:46, "gordon" <redrag_ltd@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > John
                                      > >
                                      > > The maneuver carried out in the video is relatively mild and not the root cause of the wing detaching, it will just have been the straw that finaly broke the camels back.
                                      > >
                                      > > "charlatan de feria"? if someone wants to insult me at least have the good manners to do it in a language that I can understand !!!!
                                      > >
                                      > > Gordon
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra information, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                                      > > > John
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ========================================
                                      > > > Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                                      > > > From: "Juan Amestoy"
                                      > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > Cc:
                                      > > > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Dear Gordon,
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Happy flying,
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Juan
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                      > > > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                                      > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > As i said we all have our opinion!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Gordon
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                      > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                                      > > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Gordon
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                                      > > > > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                                      > > > > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                                      > > > > > > Safe flying,
                                      > > > > > > John
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > ========================================
                                      > > > > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                                      > > > > > > From: rexnstudio@
                                      > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > > > Cc:
                                      > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > rex
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > > > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                                      > > > > > > To: sakaos
                                      > > > > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                                      > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Hi,
                                      > > > > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                                      > > > > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                                      > > > > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                                      > > > > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                                      > > > > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                                      > > > > > > same material as for the front struts.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Andreas
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                                      > > > > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                                      > > > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Juan Amestoy
                                      Dear Gordon, Thanks for your clarification. I do agree on the fact that we all have the right to express our opinion, but since this is a forum in which
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Aug 29 6:40 AM
                                        Dear Gordon,
                                         
                                        Thanks for your clarification.
                                         
                                        I do agree on the fact that we all have the right to express our opinion, but since this is a forum in which sensitive matters are being discussed that can really influence the way in which some of the participants live their aviation life, we should base our thoughts on factual data.
                                         
                                        What I don't agree with, is the way in which you establish that the plane has been flown for long periods of time outside its design limits (without even knowing the modifications it had) and immediately conclude that the pilot is a "fool and not as good as he think he is". 
                                         
                                        Please understand that any one involved in that team won't be amused by those baseless comments that end with a bitter suggestion: replace the Pilot...
                                         
                                        Would you say that Sean D. Tucker needed a replacement when his elevator control broke and had to bail out? Would you say that Neil Armstrong needed a replacement when he banked too much on the Lunar Lander Trainer and had to bail out at 200ft???  
                                         
                                        Come on Gordon, let's enjoy the forum and make the best out of it by writing wise and thoughtful messages.
                                         
                                        Happy Sunday flying!
                                         
                                        Juan
                                         

                                         

                                        To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                        From: redrag_ltd@...
                                        Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 11:05:52 +0000
                                        Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                                         
                                        Juan

                                        I am quite entitled to my opinion, as are you, my opinion is based on many factors. I am not going to endlessly debate it just because you have a differing opinion, you are very much entitled to share a different viewpoint.

                                        Given the intense level flying the aircraft has been subjected to, and the varied potential contributing reasons why such a failure might occur, what I have not expressed an opinion on is the standard of construction of the aircraft, as I have no knowledge of that, but a poor standard of construction will affect the structural integrity both short and long term. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the ongoing inspection and maintenance regime the aircraft was subject to, as I have no information on that either, but it is clear that whatever inspection program was in place it did not reveal the latent defect that resulted in the wing detaching. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the fitting of a ballistic parachute, though it is obvious that without one the end result here would have been far more tragic for all concerned.

                                        Why don't we just wait and see what your investigating authorities come up with in their report?? If my opinion is wrong then I will accept that, until that time my opinion remains; The aircraft has been subjected to in-flight stresses outside its original design criteria over a continuing period culminating in the structural, probably fatigue, failure of a critical component. No opinion is offered on circumstantial influences such as the build quality, or the appropriateness of the continued airworthiness inspection regime.

                                        Gordon

                                        --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, "Juan M. Amestoy" <juanames@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Well Gordon,
                                        >
                                        > Taking into account the way in which you judged the Pilot without any logical argument based on any factual information, I would say that "Charlatan de Feria", rather than an insult, was a nice compliment from Ernesto...
                                        >
                                        > It would be great if you answer the various questions presented to you in the last few messages.
                                        >
                                        > Regards,
                                        >
                                        > Juan
                                        >
                                        > On 28 Aug 2010, at 22:46, "gordon" <redrag_ltd@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > John
                                        > >
                                        > > The maneuver carried out in the video is relatively mild and not the root cause of the wing detaching, it will just have been the straw that finaly broke the camels back.
                                        > >
                                        > > "charlatan de feria"? if someone wants to insult me at least have the good manners to do it in a language that I can understand !!!!
                                        > >
                                        > > Gordon
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra information, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                                        > > > John
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ========================================
                                        > > > Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                                        > > > From: "Juan Amestoy"
                                        > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Cc:
                                        > > > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Dear Gordon,
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Happy flying,
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Juan
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                        > > > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                                        > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himself, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > As i said we all have our opinion!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Gordon
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the edge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                        > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                                        > > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Gordon
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                                        > > > > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic structural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                                        > > > > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                                        > > > > > > Safe flying,
                                        > > > > > > John
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > ========================================
                                        > > > > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                                        > > > > > > From: rexnstudio@
                                        > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > > > Cc:
                                        > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > rex
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > > > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                                        > > > > > > To: sakaos
                                        > > > > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                                        > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Hi,
                                        > > > > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                                        > > > > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                                        > > > > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                                        > > > > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                                        > > > > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                                        > > > > > > same material as for the front struts.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Andreas
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                                        > > > > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                                        > > > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >


                                      • rexnstudio@aol.com
                                        The following comments are purely based on my opinion and experience, no implications are directed at anyone here or the incident under discussion: Regarding
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Aug 29 7:35 AM
                                          The following comments are purely based on my opinion and experience, no implications are directed at anyone here or the incident under discussion:
                                           
                                          Regarding the strut assemblies on the Rans S-10.
                                           
                                          When I do a restoration, every sub assembly is dismantled, bead blasted and inspected. On our S-10, I found several of the castings which form the attach brackets were in the process of exfoliating corrosion, layers and layers of material flaking away due to improper heat treatment. This is common in WW2 era aircraft castings, because of the speed of the war manufacturing effort, and the fact that those aircraft were not expected to fly for 70 years. I ordered new replacement castings from Rans.
                                           
                                          In addition to the corrosion, the bolt holes in one of the stock struts were elongated by about 30% in the longitudinal  axis. I ordered a section of aluminum strut material from Rans as a replacement.
                                           
                                          I have built welded steel struts for several airplanes... I am considering it for this one.
                                           
                                          For those of us here who are involved with the S-9 - 10, the Argentina incident evokes certain concerns and emotions. Being Type A pilot-types, it is easy for us to blur the line between the technical and emotional. Nothing wrong with a spirited debate.... We all want to shine the light of truth on the situation, so lets wait on the facts.
                                           
                                          Rex



                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: Juan Amestoy <juanames@...>
                                          To: sakaos <sakaos@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Sun, Aug 29, 2010 9:41 am
                                          Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                                           
                                          Dear Gordon,
                                           
                                          Thanks for your clarification.
                                           
                                          I do agree on the fact that we all have the right to express our opinion, but since this is a forum in which sensitive matters are being discussed that can really influence the way in which some of the participants live their aviation life, we should base our thoughts on factual data.
                                           
                                          What I don't agree with, is the way in which you establish that the plane has been flown for long periods of time outside its design limits (without even knowing the modifications it had) and immediately conclude that the pilot is a "fool and not as good as he think he is". 
                                           
                                          Please understand that any one involved in that team won't be amused by those baseless comments that end with a bitter suggestion: replace the Pilot...
                                           
                                          Would you say that Sean D. Tucker needed a replacement when his elevator control broke and had to bail out? Would you say that Neil Armstrong needed a replacement when he banked too much on the Lunar Lander Trainer and had to bail out at 200ft???  
                                           
                                          Come on Gordon, let's enjoy the forum and make the best out of it by writing wise and thoughtful messages.
                                           
                                          Happy Sunday flying!
                                           
                                          Juan
                                           

                                           

                                          To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                          From: redrag_ltd@...
                                          Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 11:05:52 +0000
                                          Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                                           
                                          Juan

                                          I am quite entitled to my opinion, as are you, my opinion is based on many factors. I am not going to endlessly debate it just because you have a differing opinion, you are very much entitled to share a different viewpoint.

                                          Given the intense level flying the aircraft has been subjected to, and the varied potential contributing reasons why such a failure might occur, what I have not expressed an opinion on is the standard of construction of the aircraft, as I have no knowledge of that, but a poor standard of construction will affect the structural integrity both short and long term. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the ongoing inspection and maintenance regime the aircraft was subject to, as I have no information on that either, but it is clear that whatever inspection program was in place it did not reveal the latent defect that resulted in the wing detaching. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the fitting of a ballistic parachute, though it is ob vious that without one the end result here would have been far more tragic for all concerned.

                                          Why don't we just wait and see what your investigating authorities come up with in their report?? If my opinion is wrong then I will accept that, until that time my opinion remains; The aircraft has been subjected to in-flight stresses outside its original design criteria over a continuing period culminating in the structural, probably fatigue, failure of a critical component. No opinion is offered on circumstantial influences such as the build quality, or the appropriateness of the continued airworthiness inspection regime.

                                          Gordon

                                          --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, "Juan M. Amestoy" <juanames@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Well Gordon,
                                          >
                                          > Taking into account the way in which you judged the Pilot without any logical argument based on any factual information, I would say that "Charlatan de Feria", rather th an an insult, was a nice compliment from Ernesto...
                                          >
                                          > It would be great if you answer the various questions presented to you in the last few messages.
                                          >
                                          > Regards,
                                          >
                                          > Juan
                                          >
                                          > On 28 Aug 2010, at 22:46, "gordon" <redrag_ltd@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > John
                                          > >
                                          > > The maneuver carried out in the video is relatively mild and not the root cause of the wing detaching, it will just have been the straw that finaly broke the camels back.
                                          > >
                                          > > "charlatan de feria"? if someone wants to insult me at least have the good manners to do it in a language that I can understand !!!!
                                          > >
                                          > > Gordon
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra inform ation, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                                          > > > John
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > ========================================
                                          > > > Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                                          > > > From: "Juan Amestoy"
                                          > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > Cc:
                                          > > > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Dear Gordon,> > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > ; For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Happy flying,
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Juan
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                          > > > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                                          > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himse lf, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > As i said we all have our opinion!
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Gordon
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the ed ge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                          > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                                          > > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Gordon
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                                          > > > > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic str uctural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                                          > > > > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                                          > > > > > > Safe flying,
                                          > > > > > > John
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > ========================================
                                          > > > > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                                          > > > > > > From: rexnstudio@
                                          > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > > > Cc:
                                          > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > rex
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > > > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                                          > > > > > > To: sakaos
                                          > > > > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                                          > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Hi,
                                          > > > > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                                          > > > > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                                          > > > > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                                          > > > > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                                          > > > > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                                          > > > > > > same material as for the front struts.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Andreas
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                                          > > > > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                                          > > > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > ; > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >


                                        • Juan Amestoy
                                          Dear Rex, Your comment is very interesting indeed. I am being told that based on the analysis of the wreckage, the sequence of the elements that failed can be
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Aug 29 8:10 AM
                                            Dear Rex,
                                             
                                            Your comment is very interesting indeed.
                                             
                                            I am being told that based on the analysis of the wreckage, the sequence of the elements that failed can be accurately determined. Therefore most likely, it would be possible to crosscheck the obtained data with your experience. 
                                             
                                            As well, during the investigation, an advanced aerodynamic/structural designing software will be used to precisely determine the behaviour of the S9's structure under various conditions. Hopefully, we will all learn the primary reason for this accident and if anything can be improved on these fantastic kit airplanes, the news will be available to everyone.
                                             
                                            Thanks for sharing your experience Rex.
                                             
                                            Regards,
                                             
                                            Juan
                                             

                                             

                                            To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: rexnstudio@...
                                            Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:35:15 -0400
                                            Subject: Re: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                                             
                                            The following comments are purely based on my opinion and experience, no implications are directed at anyone here or the incident under discussion:
                                             
                                            Regarding the strut assemblies on the Rans S-10.
                                             
                                            When I do a restoration, every sub assembly is dismantled, bead blasted and inspected. On our S-10, I found several of the castings which form the attach brackets were in the process of exfoliating corrosion, layers and layers of material flaking away due to improper heat treatment. This is common in WW2 era aircraft castings, because of the speed of the war manufacturing effort, and the fact that those aircraft were not expected to fly for 70 years. I ordered new replacement castings from Rans.
                                             
                                            In addition to the corrosion, the bolt holes in one of the stock struts were elongated by about 30% in the longitudinal  axis. I ordered a section of aluminum strut material from Rans as a replacement.
                                             
                                            I have built welded steel struts for several airplanes... I am considering it for this one.
                                             
                                            For those of us here who are involved with the S-9 - 10, the Argentina incident evokes certain concerns and emotions. Being Type A pilot-types, it is easy for us to blur the line between the technical and emotional. Nothing wrong with a spirited debate.... We all want to shine the light of truth on the situation, so lets wait on the facts.
                                             
                                            Rex



                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: Juan Amestoy <juanames@...>
                                            To: sakaos <sakaos@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sun, Aug 29, 2010 9:41 am
                                            Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                                             
                                            Dear Gordon,
                                             
                                            Thanks for your clarification.
                                             
                                            I do agree on the fact that we all have the right to express our opinion, but since this is a forum in which sensitive matters are being discussed that can really influence the way in which some of the participants live their aviation life, we should base our thoughts on factual data.
                                             
                                            What I don't agree with, is the way in which you establish that the plane has been flown for long periods of time outside its design limits (without even knowing the modifications it had) and immediately conclude that the pilot is a "fool and not as good as he think he is". 
                                             
                                            Please understand that any one involved in that team won't be amused by those baseless comments that end with a bitter suggestion: replace the Pilot...
                                             
                                            Would you say that Sean D. Tucker needed a replacement when his elevator control broke and had to bail out? Would you say that Neil Armstrong needed a replacement when he banked too much on the Lunar Lander Trainer and had to bail out at 200ft???  
                                             
                                            Come on Gordon, let's enjoy the forum and make the best out of it by writing wise and thoughtful messages.
                                             
                                            Happy Sunday flying!
                                             
                                            Juan
                                             

                                             

                                            To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: redrag_ltd@...
                                            Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 11:05:52 +0000
                                            Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                                             
                                            Juan

                                            I am quite entitled to my opinion, as are you, my opinion is based on many factors. I am not going to endlessly debate it just because you have a differing opinion, you are very much entitled to share a different viewpoint.

                                            Given the intense level flying the aircraft has been subjected to, and the varied potential contributing reasons why such a failure might occur, what I have not expressed an opinion on is the standard of construction of the aircraft, as I have no knowledge of that, but a poor standard of construction will affect the structural integrity both short and long term. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the ongoing inspection and maintenance regime the aircraft was subject to, as I have no information on that either, but it is clear that whatever inspection program was in place it did not reveal the latent defect that resulted in the wing detaching. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the fitting of a ballistic parachute, though it is ob vious that without one the end result here would have been far more tragic for all concerned.

                                            Why don't we just wait and see what your investigating authorities come up with in their report?? If my opinion is wrong then I will accept that, until that time my opinion remains; The aircraft has been subjected to in-flight stresses outside its original design criteria over a continuing period culminating in the structural, probably fatigue, failure of a critical component. No opinion is offered on circumstantial influences such as the build quality, or the appropriateness of the continued airworthiness inspection regime.

                                            Gordon

                                            --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, "Juan M. Amestoy" <juanames@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Well Gordon,
                                            >
                                            > Taking into account the way in which you judged the Pilot without any logical argument based on any factual information, I would say that "Charlatan de Feria", rather th an an insult, was a nice compliment from Ernesto...
                                            >
                                            > It would be great if you answer the various questions presented to you in the last few messages.
                                            >
                                            > Regards,
                                            >
                                            > Juan
                                            >
                                            > On 28 Aug 2010, at 22:46, "gordon" <redrag_ltd@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > John
                                            > >
                                            > > The maneuver carried out in the video is relatively mild and not the root cause of the wing detaching, it will just have been the straw that finaly broke the camels back.
                                            > >
                                            > > "charlatan de feria"? if someone wants to insult me at least have the good manners to do it in a language that I can understand !!!!
                                            > >
                                            > > Gordon
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra inform ation, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                                            > > > John
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ========================================
                                            > > > Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                                            > > > From: "Juan Amestoy"
                                            > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > Cc:
                                            > > > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Dear Gordon,> > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ; For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Happy flying,
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Juan
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                            > > > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                                            > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                            > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himse lf, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.
                                            > > >
                                            > > > As i said we all have our opinion!
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Gordon
                                            > > >
                                            > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the ed ge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                            > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                                            > > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Gordon
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                                            > > > > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic str uctural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                                            > > > > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                                            > > > > > > Safe flying,
                                            > > > > > > John
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > ========================================
                                            > > > > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                                            > > > > > > From: rexnstudio@
                                            > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > > > > Cc:
                                            > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > rex
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                            > > > > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                                            > > > > > > To: sakaos
                                            > > > > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                                            > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Hi,
                                            > > > > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                                            > > > > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                                            > > > > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                                            > > > > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                                            > > > > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                                            > > > > > > same material as for the front struts.
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Andreas
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                                            > > > > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                                            > > > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > >
                                            > > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > ; > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > >
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >



                                          • upsidedown_bob
                                            So who doesn t get it? As a high time aerobatic pilot of the S-9, the airplane in the video was simply over G d in the negative. The pilot did not do anything
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Sep 3, 2010
                                              So who doesn't get it? As a high time aerobatic pilot of the S-9, the airplane in the video was simply over "G"d in the negative. The pilot did not do anything that was stupid or foolish. The wing snapped off, and the guy saved his ass by immediately popping the chute. What happened could have been prevented if the highly overweight S-9 had jury struts installed, and perhaps chromemoly tube inserts inside the struts. My S-9 weighed in at 550 pounds and I am very grateful that my wing did not break off. Randy told me that at my weight my S-9 would handle -3G and +4.5G. It is a good idea to listen to what Mr. Schlitter says.

                                              If your plane is within design limits then go fly and don't worry about loosing a wing.

                                              Bob Widmer (YouTube
                                              ~~~~~~~~~~~

                                              --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Juan Amestoy <juanames@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Dear Rex,
                                              >
                                              > Your comment is very interesting indeed.
                                              >
                                              > I am being told that based on the analysis of the wreckage, the sequence of the elements that failed can be accurately determined. Therefore most likely, it would be possible to crosscheck the obtained data with your experience.
                                              >
                                              > As well, during the investigation, an advanced aerodynamic/structural designing software will be used to precisely determine the behaviour of the S9's structure under various conditions. Hopefully, we will all learn the primary reason for this accident and if anything can be improved on these fantastic kit airplanes, the news will be available to everyone.
                                              >
                                              > Thanks for sharing your experience Rex.
                                              >
                                              > Regards,
                                              >
                                              > Juan
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                              > From: rexnstudio@...
                                              > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:35:15 -0400
                                              > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The following comments are purely based on my opinion and experience, no implications are directed at anyone here or the incident under discussion:
                                              >
                                              > Regarding the strut assemblies on the Rans S-10.
                                              >
                                              > When I do a restoration, every sub assembly is dismantled, bead blasted and inspected. On our S-10, I found several of the castings which form the attach brackets were in the process of exfoliating corrosion, layers and layers of material flaking away due to improper heat treatment. This is common in WW2 era aircraft castings, because of the speed of the war manufacturing effort, and the fact that those aircraft were not expected to fly for 70 years. I ordered new replacement castings from Rans.
                                              >
                                              > In addition to the corrosion, the bolt holes in one of the stock struts were elongated by about 30% in the longitudinal axis. I ordered a section of aluminum strut material from Rans as a replacement.
                                              >
                                              > I have built welded steel struts for several airplanes... I am considering it for this one.
                                              >
                                              > For those of us here who are involved with the S-9 - 10, the Argentina incident evokes certain concerns and emotions. Being Type A pilot-types, it is easy for us to blur the line between the technical and emotional. Nothing wrong with a spirited debate.... We all want to shine the light of truth on the situation, so lets wait on the facts.
                                              >
                                              > Rex
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                              > From: Juan Amestoy <juanames@...>
                                              > To: sakaos <sakaos@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Sent: Sun, Aug 29, 2010 9:41 am
                                              > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Dear Gordon,
                                              >
                                              > Thanks for your clarification.
                                              >
                                              > I do agree on the fact that we all have the right to express our opinion, but since this is a forum in which sensitive matters are being discussed that can really influence the way in which some of the participants live their aviation life, we should base our thoughts on factual data.
                                              >
                                              > What I don't agree with, is the way in which you establish that the plane has been flown for long periods of time outside its design limits (without even knowing the modifications it had) and immediately conclude that the pilot is a "fool and not as good as he think he is".
                                              >
                                              > Please understand that any one involved in that team won't be amused by those baseless comments that end with a bitter suggestion: replace the Pilot...
                                              >
                                              > Would you say that Sean D. Tucker needed a replacement when his elevator control broke and had to bail out? Would you say that Neil Armstrong needed a replacement when he banked too much on the Lunar Lander Trainer and had to bail out at 200ft???
                                              >
                                              > Come on Gordon, let's enjoy the forum and make the best out of it by writing wise and thoughtful messages.
                                              >
                                              > Happy Sunday flying!
                                              >
                                              > Juan
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                              > From: redrag_ltd@...
                                              > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 11:05:52 +0000
                                              > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Juan
                                              >
                                              > I am quite entitled to my opinion, as are you, my opinion is based on many factors. I am not going to endlessly debate it just because you have a differing opinion, you are very much entitled to share a different viewpoint.
                                              >
                                              > Given the intense level flying the aircraft has been subjected to, and the varied potential contributing reasons why such a failure might occur, what I have not expressed an opinion on is the standard of construction of the aircraft, as I have no knowledge of that, but a poor standard of construction will affect the structural integrity both short and long term. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the ongoing inspection and maintenance regime the aircraft was subject to, as I have no information on that either, but it is clear that whatever inspection program was in place it did not reveal the latent defect that resulted in the wing detaching. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the fitting of a ballistic parachute, though it is ob vious that without one the end result here would have been far more tragic for all concerned.
                                              >
                                              > Why don't we just wait and see what your investigating authorities come up with in their report?? If my opinion is wrong then I will accept that, until that time my opinion remains; The aircraft has been subjected to in-flight stresses outside its original design criteria over a continuing period culminating in the structural, probably fatigue, failure of a critical component. No opinion is offered on circumstantial influences such as the build quality, or the appropriateness of the continued airworthiness inspection regime.
                                              >
                                              > Gordon
                                              >
                                              > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, "Juan M. Amestoy" <juanames@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Well Gordon,
                                              > >
                                              > > Taking into account the way in which you judged the Pilot without any logical argument based on any factual information, I would say that "Charlatan de Feria", rather th an an insult, was a nice compliment from Ernesto...
                                              > >
                                              > > It would be great if you answer the various questions presented to you in the last few messages.
                                              > >
                                              > > Regards,
                                              > >
                                              > > Juan
                                              > >
                                              > > On 28 Aug 2010, at 22:46, "gordon" <redrag_ltd@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > John
                                              > > >
                                              > > > The maneuver carried out in the video is relatively mild and not the root cause of the wing detaching, it will just have been the straw that finaly broke the camels back.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > "charlatan de feria"? if someone wants to insult me at least have the good manners to do it in a language that I can understand !!!!
                                              > > >
                                              > > > Gordon
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra inform ation, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                                              > > > > John
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > ========================================
                                              > > > > Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                                              > > > > From: "Juan Amestoy"
                                              > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > Cc:
                                              > > > > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Dear Gordon,> > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > ; For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Happy flying,
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Juan
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                              > > > > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                                              > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himse lf, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > As i said we all have our opinion!
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Gordon
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the ed ge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                              > > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                                              > > > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Gordon
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                                              > > > > > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic str uctural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                                              > > > > > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                                              > > > > > > > Safe flying,
                                              > > > > > > > John
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > ========================================
                                              > > > > > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                                              > > > > > > > From: rexnstudio@
                                              > > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > > > > Cc:
                                              > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > rex
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                              > > > > > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                                              > > > > > > > To: sakaos
                                              > > > > > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                                              > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Hi,
                                              > > > > > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                                              > > > > > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                                              > > > > > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                                              > > > > > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                                              > > > > > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                                              > > > > > > > same material as for the front struts.
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Andreas
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                                              > > > > > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                                              > > > > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > ; > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Dave Fisher
                                              Well Said Bob, ... From: upsidedown_bob To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Sep 3, 2010
                                                Well Said Bob,
                                                 
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 2:47 PM
                                                Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina

                                                 

                                                So who doesn't get it? As a high time aerobatic pilot of the S-9, the airplane in the video was simply over "G"d in the negative. The pilot did not do anything that was stupid or foolish. The wing snapped off, and the guy saved his ass by immediately popping the chute. What happened could have been prevented if the highly overweight S-9 had jury struts installed, and perhaps chromemoly tube inserts inside the struts. My S-9 weighed in at 550 pounds and I am very grateful that my wing did not break off. Randy told me that at my weight my S-9 would handle -3G and +4.5G. It is a good idea to listen to what Mr. Schlitter says.

                                                If your plane is within design limits then go fly and don't worry about loosing a wing.

                                                Bob Widmer (YouTube
                                                ~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Juan Amestoy <juanames@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Dear Rex,
                                                >
                                                > Your comment is very interesting indeed.
                                                >
                                                > I am being told that based on the analysis of the wreckage, the sequence of the elements that failed can be accurately determined. Therefore most likely, it would be possible to crosscheck the obtained data with your experience.
                                                >
                                                > As well, during the investigation, an advanced aerodynamic/structural designing software will be used to precisely determine the behaviour of the S9's structure under various conditions. Hopefully, we will all learn the primary reason for this accident and if anything can be improved on these fantastic kit airplanes, the news will be available to everyone.
                                                >
                                                > Thanks for sharing your experience Rex.
                                                >
                                                > Regards,
                                                >
                                                > Juan
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                > From: rexnstudio@...
                                                > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:35:15 -0400
                                                > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > The following comments are purely based on my opinion and experience, no implications are directed at anyone here or the incident under discussion:
                                                >
                                                > Regarding the strut assemblies on the Rans S-10.
                                                >
                                                > When I do a restoration, every sub assembly is dismantled, bead blasted and inspected. On our S-10, I found several of the castings which form the attach brackets were in the process of exfoliating corrosion, layers and layers of material flaking away due to improper heat treatment. This is common in WW2 era aircraft castings, because of the speed of the war manufacturing effort, and the fact that those aircraft were not expected to fly for 70 years. I ordered new replacement castings from Rans.
                                                >
                                                > In addition to the corrosion, the bolt holes in one of the stock struts were elongated by about 30% in the longitudinal axis. I ordered a section of aluminum strut material from Rans as a replacement.
                                                >
                                                > I have built welded steel struts for several airplanes... I am considering it for this one.
                                                >
                                                > For those of us here who are involved with the S-9 - 10, the Argentina incident evokes certain concerns and emotions. Being Type A pilot-types, it is easy for us to blur the line between the technical and emotional. Nothing wrong with a spirited debate.... We all want to shine the light of truth on the situation, so lets wait on the facts.
                                                >
                                                > Rex
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > -----Original Message-----
                                                > From: Juan Amestoy <juanames@...>
                                                > To: sakaos <sakaos@yahoogroups.com>
                                                > Sent: Sun, Aug 29, 2010 9:41 am
                                                > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Dear Gordon,
                                                >
                                                > Thanks for your clarification.
                                                >
                                                > I do agree on the fact that we all have the right to express our opinion, but since this is a forum in which sensitive matters are being discussed that can really influence the way in which some of the participants live their aviation life, we should base our thoughts on factual data.
                                                >
                                                > What I don't agree with, is the way in which you establish that the plane has been flown for long periods of time outside its design limits (without even knowing the modifications it had) and immediately conclude that the pilot is a "fool and not as good as he think he is".
                                                >
                                                > Please understand that any one involved in that team won't be amused by those baseless comments that end with a bitter suggestion: replace the Pilot...
                                                >
                                                > Would you say that Sean D. Tucker needed a replacement when his elevator control broke and had to bail out? Would you say that Neil Armstrong needed a replacement when he banked too much on the Lunar Lander Trainer and had to bail out at 200ft???
                                                >
                                                > Come on Gordon, let's enjoy the forum and make the best out of it by writing wise and thoughtful messages.
                                                >
                                                > Happy Sunday flying!
                                                >
                                                > Juan
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                > From: redrag_ltd@...
                                                > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 11:05:52 +0000
                                                > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Juan
                                                >
                                                > I am quite entitled to my opinion, as are you, my opinion is based on many factors. I am not going to endlessly debate it just because you have a differing opinion, you are very much entitled to share a different viewpoint.
                                                >
                                                > Given the intense level flying the aircraft has been subjected to, and the varied potential contributing reasons why such a failure might occur, what I have not expressed an opinion on is the standard of construction of the aircraft, as I have no knowledge of that, but a poor standard of construction will affect the structural integrity both short and long term. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the ongoing inspection and maintenance regime the aircraft was subject to, as I have no information on that either, but it is clear that whatever inspection program was in place it did not reveal the latent defect that resulted in the wing detaching. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the fitting of a ballistic parachute, though it is ob vious that without one the end result here would have been far more tragic for all concerned.
                                                >
                                                > Why don't we just wait and see what your investigating authorities come up with in their report?? If my opinion is wrong then I will accept that, until that time my opinion remains; The aircraft has been subjected to in-flight stresses outside its original design criteria over a continuing period culminating in the structural, probably fatigue, failure of a critical component. No opinion is offered on circumstantial influences such as the build quality, or the appropriateness of the continued airworthiness inspection regime.
                                                >
                                                > Gordon
                                                >
                                                > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, "Juan M. Amestoy" <juanames@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Well Gordon,
                                                > >
                                                > > Taking into account the way in which you judged the Pilot without any logical argument based on any factual information, I would say that "Charlatan de Feria", rather th an an insult, was a nice compliment from Ernesto...
                                                > >
                                                > > It would be great if you answer the various questions presented to you in the last few messages.
                                                > >
                                                > > Regards,
                                                > >
                                                > > Juan
                                                > >
                                                > > On 28 Aug 2010, at 22:46, "gordon" <redrag_ltd@> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > John
                                                > > >
                                                > > > The maneuver carried out in the video is relatively mild and not the root cause of the wing detaching, it will just have been the straw that finaly broke the camels back.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > "charlatan de feria"? if someone wants to insult me at least have the good manners to do it in a language that I can understand !!!!
                                                > > >
                                                > > > Gordon
                                                > > >
                                                > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra inform ation, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                                                > > > > John
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > ========================================
                                                > > > > Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                                                > > > > From: "Juan Amestoy"
                                                > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > > Cc:
                                                > > > > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Dear Gordon,> > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > ; For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Happy flying,
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Juan
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                                > > > > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                                                > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himse lf, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > As i said we all have our opinion!
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Gordon
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the ed ge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                                > > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                                                > > > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Gordon
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                                                > > > > > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic str uctural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                                                > > > > > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                                                > > > > > > > Safe flying,
                                                > > > > > > > John
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > ========================================
                                                > > > > > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                                                > > > > > > > From: rexnstudio@
                                                > > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > > > > > > Cc:
                                                > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > rex
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                > > > > > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                                                > > > > > > > To: sakaos
                                                > > > > > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                                                > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Hi,
                                                > > > > > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                                                > > > > > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                                                > > > > > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                                                > > > > > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                                                > > > > > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                                                > > > > > > > same material as for the front struts.
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Andreas
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                                                > > > > > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                                                > > > > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > ; > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > >
                                                >

                                              • donniek
                                                Hi Bob, was that 550 lbs empty or flying weight? Because my empty weight is 446lbs
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Sep 3, 2010
                                                  Hi Bob,
                                                  was that 550 lbs empty or flying weight? Because my empty weight is 446lbs
                                                  --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, "upsidedown_bob" <pody576@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > So who doesn't get it? As a high time aerobatic pilot of the S-9, the airplane in the video was simply over "G"d in the negative. The pilot did not do anything that was stupid or foolish. The wing snapped off, and the guy saved his ass by immediately popping the chute. What happened could have been prevented if the highly overweight S-9 had jury struts installed, and perhaps chromemoly tube inserts inside the struts. My S-9 weighed in at 550 pounds and I am very grateful that my wing did not break off. Randy told me that at my weight my S-9 would handle -3G and +4.5G. It is a good idea to listen to what Mr. Schlitter says.
                                                  >
                                                  > If your plane is within design limits then go fly and don't worry about loosing a wing.
                                                  >
                                                  > Bob Widmer (YouTube
                                                  > ~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Juan Amestoy <juanames@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Dear Rex,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Your comment is very interesting indeed.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I am being told that based on the analysis of the wreckage, the sequence of the elements that failed can be accurately determined. Therefore most likely, it would be possible to crosscheck the obtained data with your experience.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > As well, during the investigation, an advanced aerodynamic/structural designing software will be used to precisely determine the behaviour of the S9's structure under various conditions. Hopefully, we will all learn the primary reason for this accident and if anything can be improved on these fantastic kit airplanes, the news will be available to everyone.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks for sharing your experience Rex.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Regards,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Juan
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > From: rexnstudio@
                                                  > > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:35:15 -0400
                                                  > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > The following comments are purely based on my opinion and experience, no implications are directed at anyone here or the incident under discussion:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Regarding the strut assemblies on the Rans S-10.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > When I do a restoration, every sub assembly is dismantled, bead blasted and inspected. On our S-10, I found several of the castings which form the attach brackets were in the process of exfoliating corrosion, layers and layers of material flaking away due to improper heat treatment. This is common in WW2 era aircraft castings, because of the speed of the war manufacturing effort, and the fact that those aircraft were not expected to fly for 70 years. I ordered new replacement castings from Rans.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > In addition to the corrosion, the bolt holes in one of the stock struts were elongated by about 30% in the longitudinal axis. I ordered a section of aluminum strut material from Rans as a replacement.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I have built welded steel struts for several airplanes... I am considering it for this one.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > For those of us here who are involved with the S-9 - 10, the Argentina incident evokes certain concerns and emotions. Being Type A pilot-types, it is easy for us to blur the line between the technical and emotional. Nothing wrong with a spirited debate.... We all want to shine the light of truth on the situation, so lets wait on the facts.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Rex
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > > From: Juan Amestoy <juanames@>
                                                  > > To: sakaos <sakaos@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > > Sent: Sun, Aug 29, 2010 9:41 am
                                                  > > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Dear Gordon,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks for your clarification.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I do agree on the fact that we all have the right to express our opinion, but since this is a forum in which sensitive matters are being discussed that can really influence the way in which some of the participants live their aviation life, we should base our thoughts on factual data.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > What I don't agree with, is the way in which you establish that the plane has been flown for long periods of time outside its design limits (without even knowing the modifications it had) and immediately conclude that the pilot is a "fool and not as good as he think he is".
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Please understand that any one involved in that team won't be amused by those baseless comments that end with a bitter suggestion: replace the Pilot...
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Would you say that Sean D. Tucker needed a replacement when his elevator control broke and had to bail out? Would you say that Neil Armstrong needed a replacement when he banked too much on the Lunar Lander Trainer and had to bail out at 200ft???
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Come on Gordon, let's enjoy the forum and make the best out of it by writing wise and thoughtful messages.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Happy Sunday flying!
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Juan
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                                  > > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 11:05:52 +0000
                                                  > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Juan
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I am quite entitled to my opinion, as are you, my opinion is based on many factors. I am not going to endlessly debate it just because you have a differing opinion, you are very much entitled to share a different viewpoint.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Given the intense level flying the aircraft has been subjected to, and the varied potential contributing reasons why such a failure might occur, what I have not expressed an opinion on is the standard of construction of the aircraft, as I have no knowledge of that, but a poor standard of construction will affect the structural integrity both short and long term. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the ongoing inspection and maintenance regime the aircraft was subject to, as I have no information on that either, but it is clear that whatever inspection program was in place it did not reveal the latent defect that resulted in the wing detaching. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the fitting of a ballistic parachute, though it is ob vious that without one the end result here would have been far more tragic for all concerned.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Why don't we just wait and see what your investigating authorities come up with in their report?? If my opinion is wrong then I will accept that, until that time my opinion remains; The aircraft has been subjected to in-flight stresses outside its original design criteria over a continuing period culminating in the structural, probably fatigue, failure of a critical component. No opinion is offered on circumstantial influences such as the build quality, or the appropriateness of the continued airworthiness inspection regime.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Gordon
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, "Juan M. Amestoy" <juanames@> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Well Gordon,
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Taking into account the way in which you judged the Pilot without any logical argument based on any factual information, I would say that "Charlatan de Feria", rather th an an insult, was a nice compliment from Ernesto...
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > It would be great if you answer the various questions presented to you in the last few messages.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Regards,
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Juan
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > On 28 Aug 2010, at 22:46, "gordon" <redrag_ltd@> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > John
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > The maneuver carried out in the video is relatively mild and not the root cause of the wing detaching, it will just have been the straw that finaly broke the camels back.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > "charlatan de feria"? if someone wants to insult me at least have the good manners to do it in a language that I can understand !!!!
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Gordon
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra inform ation, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                                                  > > > > > John
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > ========================================
                                                  > > > > > Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                                                  > > > > > From: "Juan Amestoy"
                                                  > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > > > Cc:
                                                  > > > > > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Dear Gordon,> > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > ; For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Happy flying,
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Juan
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                                  > > > > > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                                                  > > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himse lf, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > As i said we all have our opinion!
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Gordon
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the ed ge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                                  > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                                                  > > > > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Gordon
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                                                  > > > > > > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic str uctural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                                                  > > > > > > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                                                  > > > > > > > > Safe flying,
                                                  > > > > > > > > John
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > ========================================
                                                  > > > > > > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                                                  > > > > > > > > From: rexnstudio@
                                                  > > > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > > > > > > Cc:
                                                  > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > rex
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                  > > > > > > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                                                  > > > > > > > > To: sakaos
                                                  > > > > > > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                                                  > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > Hi,
                                                  > > > > > > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                                                  > > > > > > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                                                  > > > > > > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                                                  > > > > > > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                                                  > > > > > > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                                                  > > > > > > > > same material as for the front struts.
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > Andreas
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                                                  > > > > > > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                                                  > > > > > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > ; > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • jlservices74
                                                  So has anyone installed jury struts, or put chromemoly inserts inside the struts? How would you properly mount the jury struts to the front and rear spar?
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Sep 4, 2010
                                                    So has anyone installed jury struts, or put chromemoly inserts inside the struts? How would you properly mount the jury struts to the front and rear spar?

                                                    --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, "upsidedown_bob" <pody576@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > So who doesn't get it? As a high time aerobatic pilot of the S-9, the airplane in the video was simply over "G"d in the negative. The pilot did not do anything that was stupid or foolish. The wing snapped off, and the guy saved his ass by immediately popping the chute. What happened could have been prevented if the highly overweight S-9 had jury struts installed, and perhaps chromemoly tube inserts inside the struts. My S-9 weighed in at 550 pounds and I am very grateful that my wing did not break off. Randy told me that at my weight my S-9 would handle -3G and +4.5G. It is a good idea to listen to what Mr. Schlitter says.
                                                    >
                                                    > If your plane is within design limits then go fly and don't worry about loosing a wing.
                                                    >
                                                    > Bob Widmer (YouTube
                                                    > ~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Juan Amestoy <juanames@> wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Dear Rex,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Your comment is very interesting indeed.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I am being told that based on the analysis of the wreckage, the sequence of the elements that failed can be accurately determined. Therefore most likely, it would be possible to crosscheck the obtained data with your experience.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > As well, during the investigation, an advanced aerodynamic/structural designing software will be used to precisely determine the behaviour of the S9's structure under various conditions. Hopefully, we will all learn the primary reason for this accident and if anything can be improved on these fantastic kit airplanes, the news will be available to everyone.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Thanks for sharing your experience Rex.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Regards,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Juan
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > From: rexnstudio@
                                                    > > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:35:15 -0400
                                                    > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > The following comments are purely based on my opinion and experience, no implications are directed at anyone here or the incident under discussion:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Regarding the strut assemblies on the Rans S-10.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > When I do a restoration, every sub assembly is dismantled, bead blasted and inspected. On our S-10, I found several of the castings which form the attach brackets were in the process of exfoliating corrosion, layers and layers of material flaking away due to improper heat treatment. This is common in WW2 era aircraft castings, because of the speed of the war manufacturing effort, and the fact that those aircraft were not expected to fly for 70 years. I ordered new replacement castings from Rans.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > In addition to the corrosion, the bolt holes in one of the stock struts were elongated by about 30% in the longitudinal axis. I ordered a section of aluminum strut material from Rans as a replacement.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I have built welded steel struts for several airplanes... I am considering it for this one.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > For those of us here who are involved with the S-9 - 10, the Argentina incident evokes certain concerns and emotions. Being Type A pilot-types, it is easy for us to blur the line between the technical and emotional. Nothing wrong with a spirited debate.... We all want to shine the light of truth on the situation, so lets wait on the facts.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Rex
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > > From: Juan Amestoy <juanames@>
                                                    > > To: sakaos <sakaos@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    > > Sent: Sun, Aug 29, 2010 9:41 am
                                                    > > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Dear Gordon,
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Thanks for your clarification.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I do agree on the fact that we all have the right to express our opinion, but since this is a forum in which sensitive matters are being discussed that can really influence the way in which some of the participants live their aviation life, we should base our thoughts on factual data.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > What I don't agree with, is the way in which you establish that the plane has been flown for long periods of time outside its design limits (without even knowing the modifications it had) and immediately conclude that the pilot is a "fool and not as good as he think he is".
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Please understand that any one involved in that team won't be amused by those baseless comments that end with a bitter suggestion: replace the Pilot...
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Would you say that Sean D. Tucker needed a replacement when his elevator control broke and had to bail out? Would you say that Neil Armstrong needed a replacement when he banked too much on the Lunar Lander Trainer and had to bail out at 200ft???
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Come on Gordon, let's enjoy the forum and make the best out of it by writing wise and thoughtful messages.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Happy Sunday flying!
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Juan
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                                    > > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 11:05:52 +0000
                                                    > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Juan
                                                    > >
                                                    > > I am quite entitled to my opinion, as are you, my opinion is based on many factors. I am not going to endlessly debate it just because you have a differing opinion, you are very much entitled to share a different viewpoint.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Given the intense level flying the aircraft has been subjected to, and the varied potential contributing reasons why such a failure might occur, what I have not expressed an opinion on is the standard of construction of the aircraft, as I have no knowledge of that, but a poor standard of construction will affect the structural integrity both short and long term. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the ongoing inspection and maintenance regime the aircraft was subject to, as I have no information on that either, but it is clear that whatever inspection program was in place it did not reveal the latent defect that resulted in the wing detaching. Neither have I expressed an opinion on the fitting of a ballistic parachute, though it is ob vious that without one the end result here would have been far more tragic for all concerned.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Why don't we just wait and see what your investigating authorities come up with in their report?? If my opinion is wrong then I will accept that, until that time my opinion remains; The aircraft has been subjected to in-flight stresses outside its original design criteria over a continuing period culminating in the structural, probably fatigue, failure of a critical component. No opinion is offered on circumstantial influences such as the build quality, or the appropriateness of the continued airworthiness inspection regime.
                                                    > >
                                                    > > Gordon
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, "Juan M. Amestoy" <juanames@> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Well Gordon,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Taking into account the way in which you judged the Pilot without any logical argument based on any factual information, I would say that "Charlatan de Feria", rather th an an insult, was a nice compliment from Ernesto...
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > It would be great if you answer the various questions presented to you in the last few messages.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Regards,
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Juan
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > On 28 Aug 2010, at 22:46, "gordon" <redrag_ltd@> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > John
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > The maneuver carried out in the video is relatively mild and not the root cause of the wing detaching, it will just have been the straw that finaly broke the camels back.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > "charlatan de feria"? if someone wants to insult me at least have the good manners to do it in a language that I can understand !!!!
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > Gordon
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > I agree that we should avoid knee jerk reactions or jumping to conclusions. Do you have any extra inform ation, Gordon? All the information I have is the vidio clip. From this it appears that the pilot has raised the nose fairly gently from inverted flight - it doesn't appear an aggressive manoevure and certainly not enough to cause the wing failure. Therefore I am reserving judgement but would appreciate any information (rather than speculation) as soon as it becomes available. In the mean time I will be checking my aircraft thoroughly and will fly conservatively.
                                                    > > > > > John
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > ========================================
                                                    > > > > > Message Received: Aug 20 2010, 01:24 PM
                                                    > > > > > From: "Juan Amestoy"
                                                    > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > > > > Cc:
                                                    > > > > > Subject: RE: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Dear Gordon,> > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Is true, we all have our opinion. But when we give an opinion, is better to base it on facts and not on plain guesses.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > How do you know that the plane was intentionally overstressed? Are you aware of the current weather conditions? The entry speed? What was the weight of the plane at the moment of the breakup? What is your knowledge on the modifications made to this Airshow airplane?
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > How do you know what the pilot thinks of himself?
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Moreover, with all the experience you mention you have, how can you affirm that aircraft suffer less on airshows than on competition???
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Are you aware that those planes don't even have the same category of certification?
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > ; For your information, the Rans Aerobatics Team is composed by an amazing and highly qualified group of individuals. Not only they have flown everything, from Paragliders to Mirage Fighters, some of them are Aeronautical Engineering degrees. They have patented several designs (IE Rotax 912 Inverted Flight System) and we, Rans operators, have been benefited several times with their sharing of experience (IE the modification of the original control stick which used to develop cracks at the base). They carefully plan the sequences and they have a flight director on the ground who is permanently in communication with the Pilot (he ordered they immediate deployment of the chute while the Pilot was still trying to stabilise the machine).
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > So, before jumping into early and shallow conclusions, I suggest we wait and see what the investigation of the accident discovers.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > The good thing is that as soon as the facts behind the wing collapse are established, the Team will surely share them with us and once again the community will get benefited from their experience.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Happy flying,
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Juan
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > PS: For your info wings have departed from Shukois at least in one occasion.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                                    > > > > > Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:51:37 +0000
                                                    > > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Well we all have our opinion of course, but mine remains he is a fool and not quite as good a 'stunt' pilot as he thinks he is. The reason? he has been unable to identify his limits and that of his plane and match the two to provide a safe yet thrilling display.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > The laws of physics predominate, they are not negotiable, and the planet surface is very hard rock.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Pushing to limits is a matter of course in competition aerobatics and [sometimes but less so]in display flying, hence the reason for a defined 'crowd line' beyond which you dont fly. But the 'limits' include that of the plane you might be flying and in this case it seems certain that these limits were ignored and the inevitable structural failure ensued, not smart at all and potentialy undeserved poor press for the S10/9 and RANS in general.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > I have been involved in display flying and unlimited competition aerobatics for a long enough time to identify someone who is likely to kill himse lf, or more importantly someone else. Years ago my S10 was flown by our [then] national aerobatic champion plus the pilot ranked 12th in the world unlimited table, the S10 faired well in their opinion - for what it was. but it is an aircraft which has limitations and those can be exceeded by unsymathetic piloting. Unlike, say the Su26, where the limitation is is basicaly your ability to control the aircraft, and stay conscious throughout.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > As i said we all have our opinion!
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Gordon
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, Kimber Bennett wrote:
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > Of course he knew he was talking the plane to the edge of it's design, with a real risk of over stressing it, "reason for the ballistic chute"! That's his job as an aerobatic stunt pilot. Most people never come close to the ed ge of the design capabilities of what their aircraft can do and in some cases to their own detriment. That gentleman inspired me and many others . If I was the owner of Rans, I would be quick to supply him with another plane at no charge! He's the best advertising they have for their S9 & 10 kit planes!
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > > > > > > From: redrag_ltd@
                                                    > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:12:31 +0000
                                                    > > > > > > > Subject: [sakaos] Re: Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > He's been pushing it too hard, outside its envelope, and [finaly] overstressed it. a foolhardy venture with a pretty obvious conclusion and lucky to survive. the only good thing here is that it broke while he was flying it not after he had passed it onto some other innocent.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Killing yourself in an aircraft takes very little real skill, I am impressed by the camera work - but not the flying.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Would anyone here let him fly their S10/9 for his next display - I guess he is in need of a replacement, any takers???.
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > Gordon
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > --- In sakaos@yahoogroups.com, johnamos@ wrote:
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Firstly, congratulations to the pilot on a well handled emergency. That lightning response of deploying the 'chute was undoubtably a lifesaver. I hope you make a swift recovery
                                                    > > > > > > > > .I am not so much confidence inspired by the balistic chute, rather deeply concerned at a catastrophic str uctural failure. I believe this is the first incident of its kind (correct me if I am wrong), but even so I would like to hear any details as and when they come in.
                                                    > > > > > > > > Like the German authorities, the UK carried out it's own structural analysis of the S10 when it was first approved over here. Our aircraft are restricted to +4g during aeros (at 670lbs). I pass this on purely for interest pending the results of the enquiry.
                                                    > > > > > > > > Safe flying,
                                                    > > > > > > > > John
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                                                    > > > > > > > > ========================================
                                                    > > > > > > > > Message Received: Aug 18 2010, 12:42 PM
                                                    > > > > > > > > From: rexnstudio@
                                                    > > > > > > > > To: sakaos@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > > > > > > > > Cc:
                                                    > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > I'd like some specific details regarding the point of the structural failure. Building an S-10/912.
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > rex
                                                    > > > > > > > >
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                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > > > > > > > > From: Andreas Konzelmann
                                                    > > > > > > > > To: sakaos
                                                    > > > > > > > > Sent: Wed, Aug 18, 2010 4:17 am
                                                    > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [sakaos] Ballistic chute deployment in Argentina
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Hi,
                                                    > > > > > > > > It was a S9 with a Rotax 912S and an inverted oil system.
                                                    > > > > > > > > I'm building the same configuration. MTOW is 360 kg (800lbs), +6/-3g.
                                                    > > > > > > > > The German rules for experimental aircraft requests a complete
                                                    > > > > > > > > recalculation by an approved engineer. After his calculations, we have
                                                    > > > > > > > > to reinforce the rear struts with additional jury struts or to take the
                                                    > > > > > > > > same material as for the front struts.
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Andreas
                                                    > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > Am 18.08.2010 10:10, schrieb pjwitham2:
                                                    > > > > > > > > > Hi. I haven't posted here in a while. Still have my Jabiru S10. I just noticed this on the BBC website, and it looks like a plane similar to an S9 or S10 deploying its chute after a wing (strut or root structure) failure in heavy negative G loading.
                                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > > > Very confidence inspiring to see how well the chute works.
                                                    > > > > > > > > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-11008173
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