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mast rake

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  • Bret G Goodman
    has any one really come up with a true reading for mast rake or should mast be perfectly straight when all shrouds and stay tensions are set.76 helms 25,Im
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 11 3:01 PM
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      has any one really come up with a true reading for mast rake or should
      mast be perfectly straight when all shrouds and stay tensions are
      set.76 helms 25,Im thinking the previous owner of my boat made the
      back stay a little short when he replaced it ,or added the back stay
      adjuster set up.hope everyone is gearing up for a great season,im am
      going to install an Alado roller furling unit and do some extended
      cruising this year in different parts of Chesapeake bay,
    • waynehelm25
      ... should ... stay ... am ... Bret: I would say to test it by trial and error. Set it up straight with the mast hinged all the way forward. Test it for
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 12 7:48 PM
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        --- In sailnethelms@yahoogroups.com, "Bret G Goodman"
        <bgoodoooo@...> wrote:
        >
        > has any one really come up with a true reading for mast rake or
        should
        > mast be perfectly straight when all shrouds and stay tensions are
        > set.76 helms 25,Im thinking the previous owner of my boat made the
        > back stay a little short when he replaced it ,or added the back
        stay
        > adjuster set up.hope everyone is gearing up for a great season,im
        am
        > going to install an Alado roller furling unit and do some extended
        > cruising this year in different parts of Chesapeake bay,
        >
        Bret:

        I would say to test it by trial and error. Set it up straight with
        the mast hinged all the way forward. Test it for weather helm and
        pointing with different centerboard positions. Then try some rake in
        the mast and see how it changes your handling with the same
        centerboard positions. You could also try some mast bend at the top
        since we have fore and aft lower shrouds. Could make up for some
        stretched out older mainsails.

        Wayne
      • david applegate
        Bret, I have cut this for you concerning mast bend & rake...not the same of course.. In general masts bend too much in heavy air, and they stand up too
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 13 11:12 AM
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          Bret,
          I have cut this for you concerning mast bend & rake...not the same of course..
           
          In general masts bend too much in heavy air, and they stand up too straight in light air. So by control we usually talk of restricting, or inducing mast bend. There are so many ways to induce or restrict mast bend that it would be absurd to try to mention them all here. Instead, lets try to understand what the great mainsail trimmers are looking for, regardless of how they achieve it.
          Most sailors understand that bending a mast flattens the mainsail. But, how do you know when the mainsail has exactly the right amount of depth? There are two steps. First you have to find out what the best depth is, then you have to have some way of duplicating it.
          Determining the best mainsail depth for your boat is a trial and error process. At some point your yacht designer tried to place the sail plan (center of effort) directly over the keel (lateral resistance). But that is where the yacht designer's job ended and the crew took over. Since it is virtually impossible to get the mast and the keel in exactly the right place for all conditions there will be some inherent design flaws. Good crews will always find these minor flaws, and then optimize the sail trim to compensate for them.
           
          Hope this helps......I use my GPS to carefully watch my speed and try to determine if the tweaking is of any value. 
           
          David
           
          Hey can you bend your mast beneath a bridge? I can......drawing silly little circles of aluminum on the bottom of the concrete roadway above. Not intentionally of course.

          Bret G Goodman <bgoodoooo@...> wrote:
          has any one really come up with a true reading for mast rake or should
          mast be perfectly straight when all shrouds and stay tensions are
          set.76 helms 25,Im thinking the previous owner of my boat made the
          back stay a little short when he replaced it ,or added the back stay
          adjuster set up.hope everyone is gearing up for a great season,im am
          going to install an Alado roller furling unit and do some extended
          cruising this year in different parts of Chesapeake bay,



          Finding fabulous fares is fun.
          Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.

        • Bret G Goodman
          ... of course.. ... straight in light air. So by control we usually talk of restricting, or inducing mast bend. There are so many ways to induce or restrict
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 13 3:24 PM
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            --- In sailnethelms@yahoogroups.com, david applegate
            <jumaggafanny@...> wrote:
            >
            > Bret,
            > I have cut this for you concerning mast bend & rake...not the same
            of course..
            >
            > In general masts bend too much in heavy air, and they stand up too
            straight in light air. So by control we usually talk of restricting,
            or inducing mast bend. There are so many ways to induce or restrict
            mast bend that it would be absurd to try to mention them all here.
            Instead, lets try to understand what the great mainsail trimmers are
            looking for, regardless of how they achieve it. Most sailors
            understand that bending a mast flattens the mainsail. But, how do you
            know when the mainsail has exactly the right amount of depth? There
            are two steps. First you have to find out what the best depth is, then
            you have to have some way of duplicating it. Determining the best
            mainsail depth for your boat is a trial and error process. At some
            point your yacht designer tried to place the sail plan (center of
            effort) directly over the keel (lateral resistance). But that is where
            the yacht designer's job ended and the crew took over. Since it is
            virtually impossible to get the
            > mast and the keel in exactly the right place for all conditions
            there will be some inherent design flaws. Good crews will always find
            these minor flaws, and then optimize the sail trim to compensate for
            them.
            >
            > Hope this helps......I use my GPS to carefully watch my speed and
            try to determine if the tweaking is of any value.
            >
            > David
            >
            > Hey can you bend your mast beneath a bridge? I can......drawing
            silly little circles of aluminum on the bottom of the concrete roadway
            above. Not intentionally of course.
            >
            > Bret G Goodman <bgoodoooo@...> wrote:
            > has any one really come up with a true reading for mast
            rake or should
            > mast be perfectly straight when all shrouds and stay tensions are
            > set.76 helms 25,Im thinking the previous owner of my boat made the
            > back stay a little short when he replaced it ,or added the back stay
            > adjuster set up.hope everyone is gearing up for a great season,im am
            > going to install an Alado roller furling unit and do some extended
            > cruising this year in different parts of Chesapeake bay,
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Finding fabulous fares is fun.
            > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find
            flight and hotel bargains.
            >
            Thanks for the insight,I will play with it this season! Bret Goodman
          • david applegate
            I often pay some attention to a hanging halyard at my dock to see if I m relatively straight (plumb) observing if it hangs way off the mast etc.
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 14 6:35 AM
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              I often pay some attention to a "hanging halyard" at my dock to see if I'm relatively straight (plumb) observing if it hangs way off the mast etc.   Unfortunately this is influenced by wind/wave action and port side fat asses or other loading.
              I try to step my mast straight at launch and tune the standing rigging w/ my faithful Loos tension gauge. My forestay is completyely covered w/ the foil of my hood 705 sea furl so tensioning the turnbuckle is an effort of bending & leaning while supporting the foil. I REALLY do this very little, like once.  I adjust the forestay by putting tension while my split backstay car is in the up or loose position, I get the tension in range so the car can more than make up any shortfall. All the rig tuning is done and balanced I try to finish with a straight stick for CHIMERA. On your back against the mast looking up, plumb line, why not break out a laser, I haven't yet. I use the split to add tension when I'm full power w/ 155 Genoa or greater. If the breeze isn't up I don't mess with it much.
              I have a lower (inner) forestay that I use an 85 sq/ft self tacking stay'sl. I tension the running backstays to add column support to the mast where the force is applied by the stay'sl.
              I really don't believe the shoe & foot of cast aluminum are capable of really raking by design. While they are kind of robust castings that's more for acepting unplanned loads by sail bad the sinner guy's like me.  I would exercise caution here, I've seen them shimmed w/ wedges but have no specific knowledge of that scheme.
              I'd have to look it up on my handy Loos gauge, but I set the standinbg rig according to their suggestions. Check out the mast shoe & foot for abnormal wear if the previous owner rigged her wrong for years. All trailerable Helms had split back stays since they transom mount the rudder w/ tiller up that valuable center-line.
               
              David Applegate
               
              PS
               
              Anybody got a spare Pintle & Gougeon for  HELMS 25 or source with p/n...for a friend just to avoid reinventing the wheel. Please lemme no, eh?  1-800-843-3539
               

              Bret G Goodman <bgoodoooo@...> wrote:
              --- In sailnethelms@ yahoogroups. com, david applegate
              <jumaggafanny@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Bret,
              > I have cut this for you concerning mast bend & rake...not the same
              of course..
              >
              > In general masts bend too much in heavy air, and they stand up too
              straight in light air. So by control we usually talk of restricting,
              or inducing mast bend. There are so many ways to induce or restrict
              mast bend that it would be absurd to try to mention them all here.
              Instead, lets try to understand what the great mainsail trimmers are
              looking for, regardless of how they achieve it. Most sailors
              understand that bending a mast flattens the mainsail. But, how do you
              know when the mainsail has exactly the right amount of depth? There
              are two steps. First you have to find out what the best depth is, then
              you have to have some way of duplicating it. Determining the best
              mainsail depth for your boat is a trial and error process. At some
              point your yacht designer tried to place the sail plan (center of
              effort) directly over the keel (lateral resistance). But that is where
              the yacht designer's job ended and the crew took over. Since it is
              virtually impossible to get the
              > mast and the keel in exactly the right place for all conditions
              there will be some inherent design flaws. Good crews will always find
              these minor flaws, and then optimize the sail trim to compensate for
              them.
              >
              > Hope this helps......I use my GPS to carefully watch my speed and
              try to determine if the tweaking is of any value.
              >
              > David
              >
              > Hey can you bend your mast beneath a bridge? I can......drawing
              silly little circles of aluminum on the bottom of the concrete roadway
              above. Not intentionally of course.
              >
              > Bret G Goodman <bgoodoooo@. ..> wrote:
              > has any one really come up with a true reading for mast
              rake or should
              > mast be perfectly straight when all shrouds and stay tensions are
              > set.76 helms 25,Im thinking the previous owner of my boat made the
              > back stay a little short when he replaced it ,or added the back stay
              > adjuster set up.hope everyone is gearing up for a great season,im am
              > going to install an Alado roller furling unit and do some extended
              > cruising this year in different parts of Chesapeake bay,
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- ---
              > Finding fabulous fares is fun.
              > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find
              flight and hotel bargains.
              >
              Thanks for the insight,I will play with it this season! Bret Goodman



              Don't pick lemons.
              See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.

            • Bret G Goodman
              ... if I m relatively straight (plumb) observing if it hangs way off the mast etc. Unfortunately this is influenced by wind/wave action and port side fat
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 14 5:09 PM
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                --- In sailnethelms@yahoogroups.com, david applegate
                <jumaggafanny@...> wrote:
                >
                > I often pay some attention to a "hanging halyard" at my dock to see
                if I'm relatively straight (plumb) observing if it hangs way off the
                mast etc. Unfortunately this is influenced by wind/wave action and
                port side fat asses or other loading.
                > I try to step my mast straight at launch and tune the standing
                rigging w/ my faithful Loos tension gauge. My forestay is completyely
                covered w/ the foil of my hood 705 sea furl so tensioning the
                turnbuckle is an effort of bending & leaning while supporting the
                foil. I REALLY do this very little, like once. I adjust the forestay
                by putting tension while my split backstay car is in the up or loose
                position, I get the tension in range so the car can more than make up
                any shortfall. All the rig tuning is done and balanced I try to finish
                with a straight stick for CHIMERA. On your back against the mast
                looking up, plumb line, why not break out a laser, I haven't yet. I
                use the split to add tension when I'm full power w/ 155 Genoa or
                greater. If the breeze isn't up I don't mess with it much.
                > I have a lower (inner) forestay that I use an 85 sq/ft self
                tacking stay'sl. I tension the running backstays to add column support
                to the mast where the force is applied by the stay'sl.
                > I really don't believe the shoe & foot of cast aluminum are
                capable of really raking by design. While they are kind of robust
                castings that's more for acepting unplanned loads by sail bad the
                sinner guy's like me. I would exercise caution here, I've seen them
                shimmed w/ wedges but have no specific knowledge of that scheme.
                > I'd have to look it up on my handy Loos gauge, but I set the
                standinbg rig according to their suggestions. Check out the mast shoe
                & foot for abnormal wear if the previous owner rigged her wrong for
                years. All trailerable Helms had split back stays since they transom
                mount the rudder w/ tiller up that valuable center-line.
                >
                > David Applegate
                >
                > PS
                >
                > Anybody got a spare Pintle & Gougeon for HELMS 25 or source with
                p/n...for a friend just to avoid reinventing the wheel. Please lemme
                no, eh? 1-800-843-3539
                > thanks David i like the straight stick method
                >
                > Bret G Goodman <bgoodoooo@...> wrote:
                > --- In sailnethelms@yahoogroups.com, david applegate
                > <jumaggafanny@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Bret,
                > > I have cut this for you concerning mast bend & rake...not the same
                > of course..
                > >
                > > In general masts bend too much in heavy air, and they stand up too
                > straight in light air. So by control we usually talk of restricting,
                > or inducing mast bend. There are so many ways to induce or restrict
                > mast bend that it would be absurd to try to mention them all here.
                > Instead, lets try to understand what the great mainsail trimmers are
                > looking for, regardless of how they achieve it. Most sailors
                > understand that bending a mast flattens the mainsail. But, how do you
                > know when the mainsail has exactly the right amount of depth? There
                > are two steps. First you have to find out what the best depth is, then
                > you have to have some way of duplicating it. Determining the best
                > mainsail depth for your boat is a trial and error process. At some
                > point your yacht designer tried to place the sail plan (center of
                > effort) directly over the keel (lateral resistance). But that is where
                > the yacht designer's job ended and the crew took over. Since it is
                > virtually impossible to get the
                > > mast and the keel in exactly the right place for all conditions
                > there will be some inherent design flaws. Good crews will always find
                > these minor flaws, and then optimize the sail trim to compensate for
                > them.
                > >
                > > Hope this helps......I use my GPS to carefully watch my speed and
                > try to determine if the tweaking is of any value.
                > >
                > > David
                > >
                > > Hey can you bend your mast beneath a bridge? I can......drawing
                > silly little circles of aluminum on the bottom of the concrete roadway
                > above. Not intentionally of course.
                > >
                > > Bret G Goodman <bgoodoooo@> wrote:
                > > has any one really come up with a true reading for mast
                > rake or should
                > > mast be perfectly straight when all shrouds and stay tensions are
                > > set.76 helms 25,Im thinking the previous owner of my boat made the
                > > back stay a little short when he replaced it ,or added the back stay
                > > adjuster set up.hope everyone is gearing up for a great season,im am
                > > going to install an Alado roller furling unit and do some extended
                > > cruising this year in different parts of Chesapeake bay,
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Finding fabulous fares is fun.
                > > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find
                > flight and hotel bargains.
                > >
                > Thanks for the insight,I will play with it this season! Bret Goodman
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Don't pick lemons.
                > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
                >
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