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Re: The Trouble with Lugsails - tacking

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  • Karl
    I got a good lesson about this on Sunday. I had my balanced lug rigged canoe ketch out on Table Rock Lake (southern MO) during a (brief) break in some very
    Message 1 of 12 , May 1, 2006
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      I got a good lesson about this on Sunday. I had my balanced lug
      rigged canoe ketch out on Table Rock Lake (southern MO) during a
      (brief) break in some very dynamic weather this weekend. In moderate
      winds (10-15 mph) with the full sail spread up (~95 ft^2), I could
      tack through maybe 100 deg (Note, I had a crew mate for balast.. I
      couldn't hold her on her feet by myself in the gusts). When the wind
      kicked up to 20 mph or so (with 30+ gusts), it was hard to go to
      windward at all, and then only for moments.. the luffs would sag, the
      leeches would flog in even minor gusts if I tried to stay
      close-hauled, and the boat would stall and get drug sideways.

      It was the worst weather I'd been in so far (had a safety boat
      standing by, so it wasn't as nutty as it might sound), and told me
      alot about the limits of my ability and the boat. I would have liked
      to have seen how the rigged would have stood reefed once (or maybe
      twice), but I ran out of time when the sun left.

      -k


      >
      > Remember that the angle you can tack through depends on more than
      the rig.
      > --
      > Craig O'Donnell
    • Karl
      In my (also very limited) experience, the assymetric nature of the lug rig contributes, and I d guess the single leeboard has the same sort of effects going
      Message 2 of 12 , May 10, 2006
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        In my (also very limited) experience, the assymetric nature of the lug
        rig contributes, and I'd guess the single leeboard has the same sort
        of effects going on. My 'canoe' has a centerboard, so the under-water
        profile and leverages match tack-to-tack, but on the 'bad' tack (in my
        case the port tack, my sail is hung on the port side of the mast), in
        light wind, it doesn't point as high as it does on a starboard tack.
        I'm inclined to believe the turbulence from the mast comes into play,
        as well as the deformed shape of the sail lying against the big stick.
        If the wind kicks up to around 10-12 mph, I can't tell much of a
        difference. Also, I can't point as high as I start to take in reefs..
        I think this is due to the shortened leading edge of my sails, the
        increased windage of the reef bundle along the boom, and the
        compromised sail shape (I'm still tuning up my reefing gear, largely
        by trial and error).

        In our light little boats, even a slight change in the dynamics acting
        on the rig and hull (waves, wind, crew location/movement, rudder
        position, etc etc) will influence the boats performance, unlike on a
        more massive craft where inertia helps dampen the effects of 'little'
        forces.

        In theory anyway, with your sail hung on the stbd side of the mast, a
        port tack (wind coming over the port rail) should be your best bet
        since the outter surface of the air foil (aka 'sail') is clear and
        airflow over it is not disrupted by a vertical stick, but I built a
        little dinghy a few years ago and sailed it with a lug, and for
        whatever reason, it too would point better on the 'bad' tack. *shrug*
        All this assumes that the Bernoulli effect is providing most of the
        drive to windward.. if drive is actually dominated by the diverted
        airflow off the trailing edge of the sail (I've read claims to this
        effect. I'm not really sure what to believe other than
        philosophically noting that real answers are usually a symphesis of
        opposing positions), then the forces are different, and particularly
        the effects of mast turbulence will be different. I think sail
        quality (shape, surface friction, etc) is a HUGE contributer here.

        Just my $0.02, I Am Not A Nautical Engineer, and of course, Your
        Mileage May Vary. I look forward to what some of more experienced
        folks here have to say.

        Fair winds..
        -k


        --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "tommycboat" <tommyc1@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Well I don't know if this is a lugsail issue but I'm finding I can
        > tack to starbord much better than to port.
        > My little 39 sq ft Mill Creek sail is in the starbord side of my mast
        > while my leeboard is to port. I duck forward to clear the boom on each
        > tack and the weight shift seems to help. I rarely get caught on a
        > starbord tack, while port tacks are iffy at best.
        > It seems as though I don't sail to the wind as well with the wind on
        > my port side either but that may be the imagination of a very
        > inexperienced sailor.
        > Any suggestions as to what might cause the difference from side to
        > side?
        >
      • dan brown
        ... lug ... sort ... water ... (in my ... in ... tack. ... play, ... stick. ... reefs.. ... largely ... acting ... a ... of little ... mast, a ... *shrug*
        Message 3 of 12 , May 10, 2006
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          --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "Karl" <karl@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > In my (also very limited) experience, the assymetric nature of the
          lug
          > rig contributes, and I'd guess the single leeboard has the same
          sort
          > of effects going on. My 'canoe' has a centerboard, so the under-
          water
          > profile and leverages match tack-to-tack, but on the 'bad' tack
          (in my
          > case the port tack, my sail is hung on the port side of the mast),
          in
          > light wind, it doesn't point as high as it does on a starboard
          tack.
          > I'm inclined to believe the turbulence from the mast comes into
          play,
          > as well as the deformed shape of the sail lying against the big
          stick.
          > If the wind kicks up to around 10-12 mph, I can't tell much of a
          > difference. Also, I can't point as high as I start to take in
          reefs..
          > I think this is due to the shortened leading edge of my sails, the
          > increased windage of the reef bundle along the boom, and the
          > compromised sail shape (I'm still tuning up my reefing gear,
          largely
          > by trial and error).
          >
          > In our light little boats, even a slight change in the dynamics
          acting
          > on the rig and hull (waves, wind, crew location/movement, rudder
          > position, etc etc) will influence the boats performance, unlike on
          a
          > more massive craft where inertia helps dampen the effects
          of 'little'
          > forces.
          >
          > In theory anyway, with your sail hung on the stbd side of the
          mast, a
          > port tack (wind coming over the port rail) should be your best bet
          > since the outter surface of the air foil (aka 'sail') is clear and
          > airflow over it is not disrupted by a vertical stick, but I built a
          > little dinghy a few years ago and sailed it with a lug, and for
          > whatever reason, it too would point better on the 'bad' tack.
          *shrug*
          > All this assumes that the Bernoulli effect is providing most of
          the
          > drive to windward.. if drive is actually dominated by the diverted
          > airflow off the trailing edge of the sail (I've read claims to this
          > effect. I'm not really sure what to believe other than
          > philosophically noting that real answers are usually a symphesis of
          > opposing positions), then the forces are different, and
          particularly
          > the effects of mast turbulence will be different. I think sail
          > quality (shape, surface friction, etc) is a HUGE contributer here.
          >
          > Just my $0.02, I Am Not A Nautical Engineer, and of course, Your
          > Mileage May Vary. I look forward to what some of more experienced
          > folks here have to say.
          >
          > Fair winds..
          > -k
          >
          >
          > --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "tommycboat" <tommyc1@>
          wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Well I don't know if this is a lugsail issue but I'm finding I
          can
          > > tack to starbord much better than to port.
          > > My little 39 sq ft Mill Creek sail is in the starbord side of my
          mast
          > > while my leeboard is to port. I duck forward to clear the boom
          on each
          > > tack and the weight shift seems to help. I rarely get caught on
          a
          > > starbord tack, while port tacks are iffy at best.
          > > It seems as though I don't sail to the wind as well with the
          wind on
          > > my port side either but that may be the imagination of a very
          > > inexperienced sailor.
          > > Any suggestions as to what might cause the difference from side
          to
          > > side?
          > >
          >my 2 cents: based on my experience sailing sunfish the boat will
          sail higher when the sail is flattened by lying against the mast and
          the sail has reduced draft. also the area of the sail ahead of the
          mast when the sail is lying against the mast acts like a 'backed'
          jib after you reach 'head to wind' and helps the boat turn down onto
          its new heading after a tack. i suggest that you sail a little lower
          on the port tack. do not oversheet because you can cause the leech
          to hook to windward (slow). go into the tack at good speed. sheet in
          as you head up to tack and release the sheet when head to wind. keep
          your rudder movements smooth and progressive ( start heading up
          gradually and progressively increase the attack angle to 45 deg as
          you come head to wind) avoid turning the rudder past 45 deg, it then
          becomes a brake.it takes some rhythm and practice. sailing a canoe
          with a lot of surface area and a small sail is an art.
        • Tord Eriksson
          Here you have some advanced lugboats, from Venice, Italy! http://www.velaalterzo.it/inglese/avt.htm Tord
          Message 4 of 12 , May 11, 2006
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            Here you have some advanced lugboats, from Venice, Italy!

            http://www.velaalterzo.it/inglese/avt.htm

            Tord
          • osbertjlancaster
            I had a similar problem and improved performance considerably by sorting the leeeboard. My leeboard is bolted directly to the port side of the hull forward of
            Message 5 of 12 , May 13, 2006
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              I had a similar problem and improved performance considerably by sorting the leeeboard.

              My leeboard is bolted directly to the port side of the hull forward of amidships, so when
              down it was toed in towards the centre line - pointed great on port tack, but terribly on
              starboard. I made up a wedge of timber to go between the hull and the leedboard so that
              the leeboard is more or less parallel to the centre board.

              (You can see Selkie here: http://www.selkiecanoe.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ though no
              leeboard detail!)

              Cheers

              Osbert

              --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "tommycboat" <tommyc1@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Well I don't know if this is a lugsail issue but I'm finding I can
              > tack to starbord much better than to port.
              > My little 39 sq ft Mill Creek sail is in the starbord side of my mast
              > while my leeboard is to port. I duck forward to clear the boom on each
              > tack and the weight shift seems to help. I rarely get caught on a
              > starbord tack, while port tacks are iffy at best.
              > It seems as though I don't sail to the wind as well with the wind on
              > my port side either but that may be the imagination of a very
              > inexperienced sailor.
              > Any suggestions as to what might cause the difference from side to
              > side?
              >
            • John
              Part of the reason you lose windward performance as wind increases is that the windage (drag) of your hull, rig, and sailor increases with wind speed. Your
              Message 6 of 12 , May 14, 2006
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                Part of the reason you lose windward performance as wind increases
                is that the windage (drag) of your hull, rig, and sailor increases
                with wind speed. Your drive is finite, and decreases by reefing.
                You're on the losing end of that ratio. Same thing happens with my
                Friendship sloop.
                I still like the lug in a canoe for it's simplicity and low heeling.



                --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "Karl" <karl@...> wrote:
                >
                >



                > In my (also very limited) experience, the assymetric nature of the
                lug
                > rig contributes, and I'd guess the single leeboard has the same
                sort
                > of effects going on. My 'canoe' has a centerboard, so the under-
                water
                > profile and leverages match tack-to-tack, but on the 'bad' tack
                (in my
                > case the port tack, my sail is hung on the port side of the mast),
                in
                > light wind, it doesn't point as high as it does on a starboard
                tack.
                > I'm inclined to believe the turbulence from the mast comes into
                play,
                > as well as the deformed shape of the sail lying against the big
                stick.
                > If the wind kicks up to around 10-12 mph, I can't tell much of a
                > difference. Also, I can't point as high as I start to take in
                reefs..
                > I think this is due to the shortened leading edge of my sails, the
                > increased windage of the reef bundle along the boom, and the
                > compromised sail shape (I'm still tuning up my reefing gear,
                largely
                > by trial and error).
                >
                > In our light little boats, even a slight change in the dynamics
                acting
                > on the rig and hull (waves, wind, crew location/movement, rudder
                > position, etc etc) will influence the boats performance, unlike on
                a
                > more massive craft where inertia helps dampen the effects
                of 'little'
                > forces.
                >
                > In theory anyway, with your sail hung on the stbd side of the
                mast, a
                > port tack (wind coming over the port rail) should be your best bet
                > since the outter surface of the air foil (aka 'sail') is clear and
                > airflow over it is not disrupted by a vertical stick, but I built a
                > little dinghy a few years ago and sailed it with a lug, and for
                > whatever reason, it too would point better on the 'bad' tack.
                *shrug*
                > All this assumes that the Bernoulli effect is providing most of
                the
                > drive to windward.. if drive is actually dominated by the diverted
                > airflow off the trailing edge of the sail (I've read claims to this
                > effect. I'm not really sure what to believe other than
                > philosophically noting that real answers are usually a symphesis of
                > opposing positions), then the forces are different, and
                particularly
                > the effects of mast turbulence will be different. I think sail
                > quality (shape, surface friction, etc) is a HUGE contributer here.
                >
                > Just my $0.02, I Am Not A Nautical Engineer, and of course, Your
                > Mileage May Vary. I look forward to what some of more experienced
                > folks here have to say.
                >
                > Fair winds..
                > -k
                >
                >
                > --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "tommycboat" <tommyc1@>
                wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > Well I don't know if this is a lugsail issue but I'm finding I
                can
                > > tack to starbord much better than to port.
                > > My little 39 sq ft Mill Creek sail is in the starbord side of my
                mast
                > > while my leeboard is to port. I duck forward to clear the boom
                on each
                > > tack and the weight shift seems to help. I rarely get caught on
                a
                > > starbord tack, while port tacks are iffy at best.
                > > It seems as though I don't sail to the wind as well with the
                wind on
                > > my port side either but that may be the imagination of a very
                > > inexperienced sailor.
                > > Any suggestions as to what might cause the difference from side
                to
                > > side?
                > >
                >
              • John
                Hiked out :)) I just try to stay in the bottom and lean. My canoe is a lightweight double paddle style. She s only 28 wide and about 12 deep. And I ve still
                Message 7 of 12 , May 15, 2006
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                  Hiked out :))
                  I just try to stay in the bottom and lean. My canoe is a lightweight
                  double paddle style. She's only 28" wide and about 12" deep. And
                  I've still been swimming a few times.
                  --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "tommycboat" <tommyc1@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "John" <ultrajack2003@>
                  wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Part of the reason you lose windward performance as wind
                  increases
                  > > is that the windage (drag) of your hull, rig, and sailor
                  increases
                  > > with wind speed. Your drive is finite, and decreases by reefing.
                  > > You're on the losing end of that ratio. Same thing happens with
                  my
                  > > Friendship sloop.
                  > > I still like the lug in a canoe for it's simplicity and low
                  heeling.
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > Yeah my Explorer has way too much windage. I intended to set a
                  reef in
                  > my 39 Sq ft lugger but at this point I suspect that the windage
                  from
                  > the hull would overpower anything much smaller than that 39.
                  Besides I
                  > haven't even hiked out yet (splash ;-)
                  >
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