Re: [sailing_canoes] Newbie
- "To me, the fun of my sailing canoe is its ability to be changed to meet different situations."Bingo!Chris Ostlind
www.lunadadesign.comOn Sat, May 11, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Daniel Lockwood <dlockwood3@...> wrote:This is one of the best discussions we have had in a while, and I appreciate those who have contributed to it. Even though we have discussed these themes before, it is good to have them updated. I know I will be following those links, which I may not have known about otherwise.Personally, I like playing around with different sail rigs and different hull configurations. I took the amas and akas off my Old Town Wahoo sailing canoe with no problems and sailed nicely with my 72 square foot lateen sail, but I could put them back on if I wanted to. Without them, I can row the boat, which I really like doing. My canoe is open, but it is full of flotation that is easily removable. I think there are a lot of advantages in an open boat that has a flexible hull configuration and a collection of different sail rigs and that can be rowed as well as paddled. Such a boat can hold two people nicely, if necessary, each in a good paddling position. It can also hold a lot of gear or fishing stuff. To me, the fun of my sailing canoe is its ability to be changed to meet different situations.On Sat, May 11, 2013 at 7:33 PM, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/forum.php?s=e415f0e351c64e150c789f59889dfb04 you may get help here."There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
From: daniel brown <dannyb9@...>
To: "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sent: Sunday, 12 May 2013 12:18 AM
Subject: RE: [sailing_canoes] Newbie
right, i had trouble googling ocsg too, i dont know why. it stands for 'open canoe sailing group', UK
try googling 'solway dory' and look for sailing canoes, they make several and their boats are many of the ones seen on the ocsg site
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 18:12:41 -0400
Subject: Re: [sailing_canoes] Newbie
I googled OSCG boats and didn't find anything, what does this stand for? I do agree, wood gunwales/railings certainly make sense.
i would consider gunwale and hull material in the canoe selection process. i would look for a deeper boat, 13-15" at the midsection. if i were going to do modifications, change furniture, add a mast step, etc i would look for a glass boat with wooden gunwales. also try to find a relatively stiff hull and plan on adding diagonal braces to the mast step/gunwales to prevent hull twist. i would look at OSCG boats and consider their single aka, small, hard amas which can be easily disassembled and stored in the boat. keep us informed, love your parameters...
Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 14:02:57 -0500
Subject: Re: [sailing_canoes] Newbie
Hajo and Chris,Hajo, I appreciate your comments. I'm sure I could build a simple hard chined boat, Michalack has dozens of designs as do other's such as you suggested. Although they are inexpensive to build and get you on the water, their design isn't appealing to me, compared to some of those "plastic sailing canoes" you so eloquently explained you can build much better. Good for you, to each their own. I do appreciate your comment about kevlar compared to carbon fiber in particular, I've heard this from others', so I will go with something like tuf weave flex core Winonah offers.Chris,First of all I very much appreciate your "open mindedness" and ability to accurately describe what I'm looking for. There are a couple of reasons I'm more interested in a production canoe over a home built. First of all, I know at some point I will want to sell whatever I have, production canoes of high quality will hold their value better than a home built boat, generally speaking. Another reason is versatility. With a canoe designed for paddling, and capable of sailing reasonably well, we have the best of both worlds. As to outriggers, they provide the stability, period. Granted there are many who can sail their canoes exceptionally well without outriggers, I'm not that confident. Additionally I think having outriggers both provides a level of confidence as well as allowing you to sail in higher winds. I know from my very limited canoe paddling experience, if you're trying to paddle into the wind and chop, it's difficult at best. If you have a sailing rig, you can tack into the wind. Here again, tacking into wind and chop can be wet and progress slow, but you can eventually get where to need to go with a lot less effort than paddling, and enjoy the sailing at the same time. We sailed out little Crawford Melonseed skiff out of Boggy bayou on the Choctawhatchee bay. With a north wind and 3' waves, it took us some time to get out into the bay, and it was a bit wet, but we managed. Coming in was hoot, she really had a "bone in her teeth" on a down wind run.The photo you provided of the Spirit II with outriggers looked good. The outriggers seem to be rather large compared to the BOSS system from Balogh. The BOSS outriggers are designed for portability, but from all accounts they work exceptionally well. CLC Boats also has plans for outriggers, I think they're 8 or 10 feet long. But here again, for transporting and storage I like the idea of the BOSS system.You hit the objective on the head, fooling around with small boats is suppose to be fun, not a competition for speed or craftsmanship, although if that's your cup of tea, good for you. I know people who enjoy building boats, rarely use them, just sell them and build another. Suffice it to say, I'm more about function than form, I appreciate simplicity(KISS) and a sailing canoe seems to meet this criteria nicely. Some one once said, you'll sail a small easy to rig, launch and retrieve boat far more often than a larger more complicated vessel. I loved our Caledonia Yawl, she was pretty, sailed well, but required a lot of effort to rig, de-rig, launch and retrieve. She was also gunter gaff rigged, which meant three halyards to deal with. She was better suited to long legs on large bodies of water. I also enjoyed our Montgomery 17 for extended cruising, but she was a heavy old girl to tow, rig, launch and retrieve. The Montgomery 15 was as capable and 100% easier to rig, launch and retrieve. But a sailing canoe just seems to be so very simple to transport, rig, launch and retrieve. The only real issue is you obviously need to avoid high winds approaching 18 to 20mph.We primarily day sail, we prefer larger bodies of water such as coastal bays or large lakes. We might even do some camp/cruising. However, with the simplicity of a sailing canoe, we can sail all day, pop it back on the car and head for the motel. If we're traveling we can take it along, if we have time and find a suitable body of water along the way, we can sail or paddle. There is only one other boat that interests me, the CLC Northeaster Dory. There is a guy about 2.5 hours away planning to build these for sale, in various levels of completion. At 17' long and being light weight, you can row or sail. But you do need a trailer as it weighs about 100lbs. For the money, I can have a sailing canoe, which is more appealing at this point in our research.There are there Wenonah canoes I think might work well for a sailing canoe. The Wenonah 17, Spirit II 17 and Bounty Waters 17. These all have some rocker from 1" up to 2 inches, all have approximately the same beam, 35". All are available in tuff weave flex core(50% polyester/50% fiberglass), all weigh about 58lbs. All are under $3000. Balogh sailing rig with outriggers, rudder and leeboard are about $2000. Given these three canoes, is one significantly any better than the other? The major difference seems to be in the rocker, is one inch acceptable or is 2 inches better? Again, any comments are welcome….JohnOn May 10, 2013, at 10:37 AM, Chris Ostlind wrote:Hajo,The gentleman stipulated that he doesn't feel up to building a complete boat. My take away here is that John would like to get his hands on a good, well performing, manufactured design that could be car-topped and make for a nice sailing canoe on relatively quiet waters in and around his area.That would seem to me to eliminate all the homebuilt variants available and bring the focus of the discussion into a realm as to which manufactured canoes would offer what he seeks. This isn't about an exotic canoe layup with incredibly high end features. It's about a nice, everyday canoe that can be had in the marketplace for not too much money. John asked about the ability of Kevlar to work for this kind of application, so I gave him the lowdown as to how much a Kevlar boat could handle. I suspect that Kevlar entered the discussion for John because it is lighter than a glass boat and, therefore, easier to lift and haul to a launch beach along with its ruggedness in rough environments. There are lots of Kevlar canoes on the used market for very good prices.Carbon can make for a great sailing canoe if one is willing to deal with the fragile realities of the laminate. All chosen layups for boats are about how to best balance the issues of the material against price and performance. There is no best material for a canoe. It all depends on the owner's interests and his pocketbook. I've seen great sailing canoes in all carbon with full race everything installed and I've seen the full-on Joe Sixpack variant in Royalex. Both owners seemed to be having the time of their lives.I'm not going to address the outrigger vs monohull argument right now. It's been haggled here in the past and is available in the archives should one wish to do some minor digging. Both styles of boats have their place and purpose and they both are terrific fun to sail. I happen to prefer outrigger equipped sailing canoes, but am so enamored with the monohull variety that I designed a boat to honor the work of Hugh Horton and his wonderful Bufflehead. It's all good when it comes to sailing canoes, as far as I'm concerned.As a designer and seller of boat plans, I do have a vested interest in folks who build their own boats but that's not always a good direction for everyone. Over the years, I have built several sailing canoes for customers that were based on their personal factory built canoes and they all sail well and are a blast to behold when you see the guy and his wife out for the first time in their "new" boat.John, if you'd like to see pictures of a sailing Wenonah Spirit II, follow this link and click on the images... Tacking Away and Big Catalina+ Landing.Chris Ostlind
www.lunadadesign.comOn Fri, May 10, 2013 at 6:57 AM, Hajo Smulders <hajosmulders@...> wrote:I build my own boats.I'm a fan of decked sailing canoes. I couldn't see myself spending $5,000 on a plastic sailing canoe. I can build a better, prettier boat for about a 5th of that; 40% if I get the sails professionally made. Note that a sailing canoe build for that purpose (SF 50/50, bufflehead, Nautilus, ROb ROy etc...) really don't need the outriggers, they use conservative sail plans and get sailed conservatively.A canoe designed for sailing as well as paddling will perform much better than a boat meant as just a paddling canoe. Balogh has excellent gear. Not my cup of tea though; I don't klike outriggers on canoes.Kevlar is very tough for impact resistance, but it doesn't have good tensile strength like Carbon fiber. For sailing you want a stiff hull. (Bufflehead as an ideal build has kevlar inside the hull; carbon on the outside)I know you think a full build is too much. It isn't. You can build the hull for Paul's boat in a month of free time. (http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/paulsboat/index.htm). Paul finished the OBX130 in it and was very happy with the boat. This boat will probably outperform anything you are thinking of ADAPTING to sail right nowAs far as car topping goes: I'm 45 and I don't want to mess with car topping anymore.I have a small HF trailer I use for my small boats. Then at destination I use a small canoe / kayak dolly to get to the water. Stay away from all the motor guys, capable of launching from a beach etc...HajoOn Thu, May 9, 2013 at 8:41 PM, John Merrell <mayrel@...> wrote:Greetings all,I joined this group to learn more about sailing canoes. Recently there was an article in SCA about a nicely outfitted American Traders Algonquin 16 sailing canoe. I've also been researching as much information as possible about sailing canoes and sailing rigs. Seems Balogh has one of the best available, albeit they're expensive. After pricing the Algonquin, over $5200 plus shipping, I turned to Wenonah canoes. The Prospector 16 or Wenonah 17 look to be viable candidates, both made of tufweave flex core, 50% fiberglass and 50% polyester. It has been suggested the kevlar canoes, although much lighter, may not be strong enough for mounting a sailing rig, outriggers and rudder. Grumman once produced a sailing canoe in aluminum, although aluminum canoes/boats are very durable and light, they aren't the prettiest boats on the water, and they're noisy and heavy. Merrimack also produces some beautiful wood/epoxy painted canoes, but the only one that seems close to being suitable for a sailing rig is the Traveler 17. All these canoes have some rocker, from 2.5" to 1". I've also researched CLCBoats primarily for their sailing kits for the Northeaster, a simple balanced lug. Although these kits come with dagger boards, I think it would be possible to convert the dagger board to a leeboard easily enough. These kits are less expensive than Balogh. I am not up to the task of taking on a complete build, but putting together the sailing kit seems within my ability. However, without knowing how the canoe would sail with a balanced lug, I've basically decided to go for the Balogh system.I have been sailing for several years, mostly trailer sailers, Montgomery 15 and 17, SeaPearl 21 and Crawford Melonseed Skiff. All good boats, but each has it's own personality and handling characteristics. I also had a Morgan OutIslander 30 and a Caledonia Yawl(gunter rigged). But age(65) and physical ability being what it is, down sizing is the best option. Currently I have a 1981 CL14, Canadian design that has been around over 45 years and a very capable little boat. I recently completed a total refurbishing of this boat, so she's basically "like new". This was a labor intensive project, but Dave of CLBoats was extremely helpful, all the parts I needed are available, so it went smoothly. The most difficult part was rebuilding the rotating mast system which makes raising and lowering the mast very efficient. The PO made an attempt, but didn't do a thorough job. The CL14 is about the perfect size sailboat, very capable, enough room to sleep aboard, albeit a bit snug. It's easy to tow with a total towing weight of about 500lbs, easy to rig, launch, retrieve and sail. She has a centerboard so you can beach her easily. However, we have to have a motor, a nice little Suzuki 2.5hp four stroke does the job nicely. I have listed this boat for sale on sailingtexas for $4250, less than half the cost of a new CL14 without a trailer or motor.With the idea of downsizing, as well as considering our location on Lookout Mountain in northeastern Alabama, we are reasonably close to small lakes and the Tennessee River. Trailering and launching can be a little hectic depending on the fishing boat crowd, so car-topping a canoe and walking down to the water would be much easier. Not having a motor would also be an added advantage. This is why I'm interested in a sailing canoe.With that said, I welcome any suggestions and/or comments on canoes and sailing rigs.Fair Winds…Peace…John