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Re: What makes a good sailing canoe?

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  • fklitzke
    After a search I didn t find any info on Paul s boat or Nautilus..could you supply links. Thanks
    Message 1 of 28 , May 14, 2012
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      After a search I didn't find any info on Paul's boat or Nautilus..could you supply links.

      Thanks

      --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, Hajo Smulders <hajosmulders@...> wrote:
      >
      > I think to do this well; you need to look at a sailing canoe that also
      > paddles well.
      > I have the personal feeling that this would be easier to design than the
      > other way around.
      > The two "best" canoes that currently do this are Bufflehead by Hugh Horton
      > and Selway Fisher's 50/50. Both have excellent reviews.
      >
      > Jim MIchalak just finished Paul's boat. That is a sailing canoe Paul Moffit
      > is talking to the OBX 130 this year. Review should follow after that.
      > John Welsford is working on Nautilus which seems to be the most fascinating
      > sailing canoe yet, but those plans aren't finished yet.
      >
      > I can't think of any of the shelf canoe I would want to sail in expedition
      > like conditions.
      > Maybe an old Kruger with outriggers.
      >
      > Hajo
      > --
      > ‎"Boobytrap" my new favorite anadrome...
      >
      >
      > On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Robert <wd0d@...> wrote:
      >
      > > **
      > >
      > >
      > > Except for outriggers, it seems that for the most part, people buy canoes
      > > and at some later date decide to add a sail rig.
      > >
      > > What I would like to know, prior to buying a canoe, is what constitutes a
      > > good canoe for sailing. I'm not talking about a dedicated sailing canoe.
      > > For want of a better term, I'm thinking of a paddle canoe.
      > >
      > > What would be great would be a list of manufacturers' production canoes
      > > that are good choices for adding a sailing rig. Surly, not all We-no-nah
      > > canoes (for example) are suitable for sailing, especially upwind sailing,
      > > but I would guess that one or two are.
      > >
      > > I know that rocker enters in, but what about hull shape, fine vs full bow,
      > > width, etc.?
      > >
      > > Any thoughts?
      > >
      > > wd0d
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Robert
      Thanks everybody for your responses. I have decided which way I want to go. I have ordered a Starfire designed by David Yost from Paul Meyer at Colden Canoes.
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 2, 2012
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        Thanks everybody for your responses.

        I have decided which way I want to go. I have ordered a Starfire designed by David Yost from Paul Meyer at Colden Canoes. I plan to rig it with a 44' balance lug designed and built by Todd Bradshaw. I will use an iako(crossbeam) shaped much like the Solway Dory model, but with hinges a la Gary Dierking's new folding iako.

        http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-poOS9Bcpa50/TthD-RQgG-I/AAAAAAAAA6A/fk9sfw5qB1E/s1600/support.jpg

        I have already built a Dierking designed Wa"apa outrigger canoe, which is a great boat for its designed use. However, the older I get the lighter I want the boat. I have learned from the Wa'apa the problems of an outrigger when pulling up to a dock. I figure the folding iako will solve that problem and a kevlar/fiberglass canoe will help reduce the weight.

        I like the Solway Dory approach of keeping the amas high and dry the majority of the time. I don't plan to increase sail area and "sail against the amas". The way I figure it, this keeps requiring more and more strength (read weight) being built into the boat.

        With amas that are only used in extreme moments, and then only temporarily to prevent a capsize, I don't need as much weight. Furthermore, I will use inflatable amas, probably from Balogh, further reducing the weight.

        This canoe design should sail well (same hull as Howard Rice's) and should paddle well (my understanding is that David Yost designed it as a paddle-only boat, great reviews online when manufactured by Bell).

        Hopefully, this will give me a good combination of a sailing-when-I-can-and-paddling-when-I-must boat.

        Final thoughts, I plan to use a NACA 0009 foil shape for both the deep leeboard and rudder. I do plan to equip it with dual shallow water leeboards (illustrated by Todd Bradshaw in his book), for shallow water sailing here in SW Florida. I agree with Ed Maurer about open vs. decked sailing canoes. I may have a zippered "deck"/spray skirt, but I want the open canoe feeling, although with plenty of inflatable flotation.

        Once I get the canoe and get it set up, I will post pictures.

        Bob

        --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <wd0d@...> wrote:
        >
        > Except for outriggers, it seems that for the most part, people buy canoes and at some later date decide to add a sail rig.
        >
        > What I would like to know, prior to buying a canoe, is what constitutes a good canoe for sailing. I'm not talking about a dedicated sailing canoe. For want of a better term, I'm thinking of a paddle canoe.
        >
        > What would be great would be a list of manufacturers' production canoes that are good choices for adding a sailing rig. Surly, not all We-no-nah canoes (for example) are suitable for sailing, especially upwind sailing, but I would guess that one or two are.
        >
        > I know that rocker enters in, but what about hull shape, fine vs full bow, width, etc.?
        >
        > Any thoughts?
        >
        > wd0d
        >
      • adkpaddler
        I ve sailed with a bunch of folks using this hull ala Horton with cut down shear and decked. None use/need anything other than a clean single hull... but,
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 2, 2012
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          I've sailed with a bunch of folks using this hull ala Horton with cut down shear and decked. None use/need anything other than a clean single hull... but, they rarely hike (Dr Rice a noted exception). They carry about the same 42-44 sqft of sail.

          I sail a hybrid hull that is mostly a stretched Curtis Ladybug with the Yost "bubble". I sail the open canoe style with flotation just for the ability to paddle more easily as I am a single blader. I couldn't deal with any more "stuff" in setup or sailing and carry 50' on a gunter rig. The wider "cockpit" gives the ability to move more weight out with climbing on the rail. I enjoy it. Try sailing the hull and rig without the amas and you may enjoy the nakedness and simplicity.

          Bill



          --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <wd0d@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Thanks everybody for your responses.
          >
          > I have decided which way I want to go. I have ordered a Starfire designed by David Yost from Paul Meyer at Colden Canoes. I plan to rig it with a 44' balance lug designed and built by Todd Bradshaw. I will use an iako(crossbeam) shaped much like the Solway Dory model, but with hinges a la Gary Dierking's new folding iako.
          >
          >
        • Mike Walling
          Robert, Photo looks great - when are you going to post some more with it rigged? Mike in Riyadh ________________________________ From: Robert
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 3, 2012
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            Robert,
            Photo looks great - when are you going to post some more with it rigged?
            Mike in Riyadh


            From: Robert <wd0d@...>
            To: sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, 2 June 2012, 20:48
            Subject: [sailing_canoes] Re: What makes a good sailing canoe?

             


            Thanks everybody for your responses.

            I have decided which way I want to go. I have ordered a Starfire designed by David Yost from Paul Meyer at Colden Canoes. I plan to rig it with a 44' balance lug designed and built by Todd Bradshaw. I will use an iako(crossbeam) shaped much like the Solway Dory model, but with hinges a la Gary Dierking's new folding iako.

            http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-poOS9Bcpa50/TthD-RQgG-I/AAAAAAAAA6A/fk9sfw5qB1E/s1600/support.jpg

            I have already built a Dierking designed Wa"apa outrigger canoe, which is a great boat for its designed use. However, the older I get the lighter I want the boat. I have learned from the Wa'apa the problems of an outrigger when pulling up to a dock. I figure the folding iako will solve that problem and a kevlar/fiberglass canoe will help reduce the weight.

            I like the Solway Dory approach of keeping the amas high and dry the majority of the time. I don't plan to increase sail area and "sail against the amas". The way I figure it, this keeps requiring more and more strength (read weight) being built into the boat.

            With amas that are only used in extreme moments, and then only temporarily to prevent a capsize, I don't need as much weight. Furthermore, I will use inflatable amas, probably from Balogh, further reducing the weight.

            This canoe design should sail well (same hull as Howard Rice's) and should paddle well (my understanding is that David Yost designed it as a paddle-only boat, great reviews online when manufactured by Bell).

            Hopefully, this will give me a good combination of a sailing-when-I-can-and-paddling-when-I-must boat.

            Final thoughts, I plan to use a NACA 0009 foil shape for both the deep leeboard and rudder. I do plan to equip it with dual shallow water leeboards (illustrated by Todd Bradshaw in his book), for shallow water sailing here in SW Florida. I agree with Ed Maurer about open vs. decked sailing canoes. I may have a zippered "deck"/spray skirt, but I want the open canoe feeling, although with plenty of inflatable flotation.

            Once I get the canoe and get it set up, I will post pictures.

            Bob

            --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <wd0d@...> wrote:
            >
            > Except for outriggers, it seems that for the most part, people buy canoes and at some later date decide to add a sail rig.
            >
            > What I would like to know, prior to buying a canoe, is what constitutes a good canoe for sailing. I'm not talking about a dedicated sailing canoe. For want of a better term, I'm thinking of a paddle canoe.
            >
            > What would be great would be a list of manufacturers' production canoes that are good choices for adding a sailing rig. Surly, not all We-no-nah canoes (for example) are suitable for sailing, especially upwind sailing, but I would guess that one or two are.
            >
            > I know that rocker enters in, but what about hull shape, fine vs full bow, width, etc.?
            >
            > Any thoughts?
            >
            > wd0d
            >



          • keyhavenpotterer
            Here s a link to Nautilus http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?134468-New-Welsford-Design-Nautilus-sailing-Canoe&highlight=nautilus Brian
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 7, 2012
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              Here's a link to Nautilus
              http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?134468-New-Welsford-Design-Nautilus-sailing-Canoe&highlight=nautilus
              Brian (Keyhavenpotterer)

              --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "fklitzke" <fklitzke@...> wrote:
              >
              > After a search I didn't find any info on Paul's boat or Nautilus..could you supply links.
              >
              > Thanks
              >
              > --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, Hajo Smulders <hajosmulders@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I think to do this well; you need to look at a sailing canoe that also
              > > paddles well.
              > > I have the personal feeling that this would be easier to design than the
              > > other way around.
              > > The two "best" canoes that currently do this are Bufflehead by Hugh Horton
              > > and Selway Fisher's 50/50. Both have excellent reviews.
              > >
              > > Jim MIchalak just finished Paul's boat. That is a sailing canoe Paul Moffit
              > > is talking to the OBX 130 this year. Review should follow after that.
              > > John Welsford is working on Nautilus which seems to be the most fascinating
              > > sailing canoe yet, but those plans aren't finished yet.
              > >
              > > I can't think of any of the shelf canoe I would want to sail in expedition
              > > like conditions.
              > > Maybe an old Kruger with outriggers.
              > >
              > > Hajo
              > > --
              > > ‎"Boobytrap" my new favorite anadrome...
              > >
              > >
              > > On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Robert <wd0d@> wrote:
              > >
              > > > **
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Except for outriggers, it seems that for the most part, people buy canoes
              > > > and at some later date decide to add a sail rig.
              > > >
              > > > What I would like to know, prior to buying a canoe, is what constitutes a
              > > > good canoe for sailing. I'm not talking about a dedicated sailing canoe.
              > > > For want of a better term, I'm thinking of a paddle canoe.
              > > >
              > > > What would be great would be a list of manufacturers' production canoes
              > > > that are good choices for adding a sailing rig. Surly, not all We-no-nah
              > > > canoes (for example) are suitable for sailing, especially upwind sailing,
              > > > but I would guess that one or two are.
              > > >
              > > > I know that rocker enters in, but what about hull shape, fine vs full bow,
              > > > width, etc.?
              > > >
              > > > Any thoughts?
              > > >
              > > > wd0d
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • tommycboat
              I agree with Bill. If I was doing what you are (and I m wishing I was) I d try it without the outriggers. You can always add them in later if you want to. I m
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 13, 2012
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                I agree with Bill.
                If I was doing what you are (and I'm wishing I was) I'd try it without the outriggers. You can always add them in later if you want to.
                I'm looking forward to pictures and your experince with the boat.

                Tommy

                --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "adkpaddler" <adkpaddler@...> wrote:
                >
                > I've sailed with a bunch of folks using this hull ala Horton with cut down shear and decked. None use/need anything other than a clean single hull... but, they rarely hike (Dr Rice a noted exception). They carry about the same 42-44 sqft of sail.
                >
                > I sail a hybrid hull that is mostly a stretched Curtis Ladybug with the Yost "bubble". I sail the open canoe style with flotation just for the ability to paddle more easily as I am a single blader. I couldn't deal with any more "stuff" in setup or sailing and carry 50' on a gunter rig. The wider "cockpit" gives the ability to move more weight out with climbing on the rail. I enjoy it. Try sailing the hull and rig without the amas and you may enjoy the nakedness and simplicity.
                >
                > Bill
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" <wd0d@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Thanks everybody for your responses.
                > >
                > > I have decided which way I want to go. I have ordered a Starfire designed by David Yost from Paul Meyer at Colden Canoes. I plan to rig it with a 44' balance lug designed and built by Todd Bradshaw. I will use an iako(crossbeam) shaped much like the Solway Dory model, but with hinges a la Gary Dierking's new folding iako.
                > >
                > >
                >
              • rkg_82
                In case anyone is still interested in this thread, I ve added some photos of the Selway-Fisher 50/50 sailing canoe I built, Brina . The photos are located in
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 16, 2014
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                  In case anyone is still interested in this thread, I've added some photos of the Selway-Fisher 50/50 sailing canoe I built, "Brina". The photos are located in the album in the same name.

                  The canoe is outfitted for fly fishing in my local river, the Tarn, in southwest France, in tune with the well known epigram, "Cast when you can, sail if there's too much wind to cast, and paddle otherwise". Very happy with performance in all three domains.

                  Essentially built to plan except for the deck, which is strip-planked, and for three flush-mounted hatches for the storage compartments. I also increased the diameter of the mast by 2 mm, to remedy it's reported tendency to bend alarmingly when built to plan (thanks Bill). The seat and seat mounts are of my own design. I added standard kayak foot braces for paddling comfort and efficiency. I have a bit longer than usual double-bladed paddle for my size, which I can use efficiently all day when sitting on my adjustable seat, which is raised about 100 cm off the floor. I also embedded fittings in the for and aft decks for screw-in battery powered LED navigational lights, and a small solar panel than can charge a small 12 volt battery that is sufficient for running a small sonar device for a day's fishing, and a LED anchor light at night, or charging a GPS, smart phone, or handheld VHF or CB transceiver.

                  I transport the boat on the roof of my car, using a special roller-bar fitted to the rear roof rack. It is easy to tilt up the bow onto the roller while the stern is still sitting on the trolley behind the car, then push from the stern to roll the hull upward and down into the rack cradle as the hull reaches equilibrium on the roller. The custom-built trolley fits into the forward storage compartment when disassembled so portage over short distances is not an issue if the terrain is suitable. Portage on your back would require a yoke, given the beam, although I found it possible to cover a short distance by improvising a yoke by crisscrossing around the hull and cockpit the adjustable straps used to tie down the boat to the trolley. Not very stable, but it worked. I haven't weighed the bare hull, but I know it is heavier than 22 kg, which is the maximum my hand held electronic fish scale can measure! From having lugged a couple of 40 kg sacs of sand recently, I would say the empty hull weighs around 26-30 kg. Mind the boat is fully sheathed inside and out with 80 gr fiberglass, with extra layers along the chines and hull center line. On the other hand, the strip-planked deck is considerably lighter than the per-plan, plywood one.

                  Among the boat's other qualities, the shape of the hull provides good stability when in a low kneeling position at the front of the cockpit, making it possible to quickly furl the batwing vertically along the mast, thus obtaining unrestricted casting on either side and over the top of the mast, which is shorter in this position than my fly rod. This stable position forward is also useful when dropping or weighing anchor, another advantage for anglers.

                  To furl the batwing vertically along the mast, I use a long Velcro band permanently fixed to the mast to draw together topmast, boom, and sail into a relatively compact package in seconds, much like a brailing line. At this point the sail is only loosely furled near the top, but that is not a problem in my generally light local winds. If need be, the mast can easily be unstepped in these conditions. This is handy when approaching a low bridge on a canal --shhh, it is illegal to set sail on a canal in France. A second Velcro band higher up on the mast makes for a tighter furl when winds are stronger, but requires an extended kneeling position which brings me to the limit of stability, so careful timing of the maneuver is a must! Another option is to just lower the topmast and boom onto the deck, where another Velcro band fixed to the top mast is used to secure the lot to the side deck.

                  I have also sailed Brina with a balanced lug rig I built for my sailing kayak. While much simpler to handle overall than the batwing, which has two halyards (peak and throat), the lug takes up too much space (as does the batwing) when lowered to the deck while fishing. I also found it difficult to control the spars when attempting to brail the lug to the mast, unlike the batwing whose spars fold up like a fan. Otherwise the lugsail worked very well.

                  P.S. Thanks to the contributors to this and similar threads on the 50/50 concept: your observations where very helpful when planning the build. Special thanks to Bill and Mark for sharing their experience as fellow builders of this S.-F.design.

                • john colley
                  When i carried my 17 pirogue on my car,because it was a station wagon and the roof racks could only fit above the doors(like a sedan) I could not load from
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 17, 2014
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                    When i carried my 17 pirogue on my car,because it was a station wagon and the roof racks could only fit above the doors(like a sedan) I could not load from front or back.So i fitted rollers between the front and back bars each side.I load from the side then rotate the canoe once on the racks.Just yet another way of doing it.
                     
                    "There is magic in the feel of a paddle and the movement of a canoe, a magic compounded of distance, adventure, solitude, and peace."
                    -Sigurd Olson


                    On Sunday, 17 August 2014 9:48 AM, "rkg82@... [SAILING_CANOES]" <SAILING_CANOES@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                     
                    In case anyone is still interested in this thread, I've added some photos of the Selway-Fisher 50/50 sailing canoe I built, "Brina". The photos are located in the album in the same name.
                    The canoe is outfitted for fly fishing in my local river, the Tarn, in southwest France, in tune with the well known epigram, "Cast when you can, sail if there's too much wind to cast, and paddle otherwise". Very happy with performance in all three domains.
                    Essentially built to plan except for the deck, which is strip-planked, and for three flush-mounted hatches for the storage compartments. I also increased the diameter of the mast by 2 mm, to remedy it's reported tendency to bend alarmingly when built to plan (thanks Bill). The seat and seat mounts are of my own design. I added standard kayak foot braces for paddling comfort and efficiency. I have a bit longer than usual double-bladed paddle for my size, which I can use efficiently all day when sitting on my adjustable seat, which is raised about 100 cm off the floor. I also embedded fittings in the for and aft decks for screw-in battery powered LED navigational lights, and a small solar panel than can charge a small 12 volt battery that is sufficient for running a small sonar device for a day's fishing, and a LED anchor light at night, or charging a GPS, smart phone, or handheld VHF or CB transceiver.
                    I transport the boat on the roof of my car, using a special roller-bar fitted to the rear roof rack. It is easy to tilt up the bow onto the roller while the stern is still sitting on the trolley behind the car, then push from the stern to roll the hull upward and down into the rack cradle as the hull reaches equilibrium on the roller. The custom-built trolley fits into the forward storage compartment when disassembled so portage over short distances is not an issue if the terrain is suitable. Portage on your back would require a yoke, given the beam, although I found it possible to cover a short distance by improvising a yoke by crisscrossing around the hull and cockpit the adjustable straps used to tie down the boat to the trolley. Not very stable, but it worked. I haven't weighed the bare hull, but I know it is heavier than 22 kg, which is the maximum my hand held electronic fish scale can measure! From having lugged a couple of 40 kg sacs of sand recently, I would say the empty hull weighs around 26-30 kg. Mind the boat is fully sheathed inside and out with 80 gr fiberglass, with extra layers along the chines and hull center line. On the other hand, the strip-planked deck is considerably lighter than the per-plan, plywood one.
                    Among the boat's other qualities, the shape of the hull provides good stability when in a low kneeling position at the front of the cockpit, making it possible to quickly furl the batwing vertically along the mast, thus obtaining unrestricted casting on either side and over the top of the mast, which is shorter in this position than my fly rod. This stable position forward is also useful when dropping or weighing anchor, another advantage for anglers.
                    To furl the batwing vertically along the mast, I use a long Velcro band permanently fixed to the mast to draw together topmast, boom, and sail into a relatively compact package in seconds, much like a brailing line. At this point the sail is only loosely furled near the top, but that is not a problem in my generally light local winds. If need be, the mast can easily be unstepped in these conditions. This is handy when approaching a low bridge on a canal --shhh, it is illegal to set sail on a canal in France. A second Velcro band higher up on the mast makes for a tighter furl when winds are stronger, but requires an extended kneeling position which brings me to the limit of stability, so careful timing of the maneuver is a must! Another option is to just lower the topmast and boom onto the deck, where another Velcro band fixed to the top mast is used to secure the lot to the side deck.
                    I have also sailed Brina with a balanced lug rig I built for my sailing kayak. While much simpler to handle overall than the batwing, which has two halyards (peak and throat), the lug takes up too much space (as does the batwing) when lowered to the deck while fishing. I also found it difficult to control the spars when attempting to brail the lug to the mast, unlike the batwing whose spars fold up like a fan. Otherwise the lugsail worked very well.
                    P.S. Thanks to the contributors to this and similar threads on the 50/50 concept: your observations where very helpful when planning the build. Special thanks to Bill and Mark for sharing their experience as fellow builders of this S.-F.design.


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