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Is this a potential sailer?

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  • RatbagMedia
    I have my eye on a craft which although labeled a kayak seems very much in the 19th century traditional canoe mode. Here s an image.(Sorry best I can do)
    Message 1 of 30 , Jul 2, 2011
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      I have my eye on a craft which although labeled a kayak seems very much in the 19th century traditional canoe mode.

      Here's an image.(Sorry best I can do)

      https://picasaweb.google.com/ratbagradio/KickbikeKettlebell#5624954692026541154

      So far I have these attributes . I have not seen or touched the thing.

      Custom Made Fibreglass with Varnished Plywood Decks
      The cockpit is 500 wide x 1300 long x approx 150(!?) deep. (20"x51"x ? ) There is a fixed rudder (skeg I guess)that steers very straight, steering is by paddle.
      It's 5.6 metres (18 feet) long.

      Given the proportions and seeming design is there any advice on offer towards the prospect I can convert this by adding sail and leeboard and rudder into a viable canoe sailing craft for estuary conditions?

      If it is an possibility what sort of information would I need to seek out in order to make up my mind?

      Any thoughts? No responsibility imposed on any opinion offered. The price is approx $US300 I think which is very good despite my intended use.

      You can also contact me off list : ratbagradio@...

      dave rley
    • Tom Chedester
      It s hard to tell from the picture, perspective and proportions being hard to determine, but it looks like the center of resistance might be a bit aft for easy
      Message 2 of 30 , Jul 3, 2011
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        It's hard to tell from the picture, perspective and proportions being hard to determine, but it looks like the center of resistance might be a bit aft for easy sailing. It might some custom figuring to get the center of effort back far enough for it to steer easily. Daggerboard placement could help. I'd say put it in knee deep water and see where it balances laterally. You could also rock it a bit to see how stable it might be. Everything might be fine in a straight line, but suddenly exciting on a quick turn or accidental gybe. It's got very attractive lines to look at.
         

        To: sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com
        From: ratbagradio@...
        Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 03:17:21 +0000
        Subject: [sailing_canoes] Is this a potential sailer?

         
        I have my eye on a craft which although labeled a kayak seems very much in the 19th century traditional canoe mode.

        Here's an image.(Sorry best I can do)

        https://picasaweb.google.com/ratbagradio/KickbikeKettlebell#5624954692026541154

        So far I have these attributes . I have not seen or touched the thing.

        Custom Made Fibreglass with Varnished Plywood Decks
        The cockpit is 500 wide x 1300 long x approx 150(!?) deep. (20"x51"x ? ) There is a fixed rudder (skeg I guess)that steers very straight, steering is by paddle.
        It's 5.6 metres (18 feet) long.

        Given the proportions and seeming design is there any advice on offer towards the prospect I can convert this by adding sail and leeboard and rudder into a viable canoe sailing craft for estuary conditions?

        If it is an possibility what sort of information would I need to seek out in order to make up my mind?

        Any thoughts? No responsibility imposed on any opinion offered. The price is approx $US300 I think which is very good despite my intended use.

        You can also contact me off list : ratbagradio@...

        dave rley


      • Edward Maurer
        Yes. looks like it would be a great sailer. Obviously needs leeboards but will be a fun boat. Happy Sailing! Ed Edward C. Maurer Publisher *Canoe Sailing
        Message 3 of 30 , Jul 4, 2011
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          Yes. looks like it would be a great sailer. Obviously needs leeboards but will be a fun boat.
          Happy Sailing!
          Ed

          Edward C. Maurer

          Publisher
          Canoe Sailing Magazine
          editor@...
          (727) 798-2366

          http://canoesailingmagazine.com
          http://canoeandkayaksailing.blogspot.com/
          http://paddlesail.blogspot.com/




          On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 11:17 PM, RatbagMedia <ratbagradio@...> wrote:
           

          I have my eye on a craft which although labeled a kayak seems very much in the 19th century traditional canoe mode.

          Here's an image.(Sorry best I can do)

          https://picasaweb.google.com/ratbagradio/KickbikeKettlebell#5624954692026541154

          So far I have these attributes . I have not seen or touched the thing.

          Custom Made Fibreglass with Varnished Plywood Decks
          The cockpit is 500 wide x 1300 long x approx 150(!?) deep. (20"x51"x ? ) There is a fixed rudder (skeg I guess)that steers very straight, steering is by paddle.
          It's 5.6 metres (18 feet) long.

          Given the proportions and seeming design is there any advice on offer towards the prospect I can convert this by adding sail and leeboard and rudder into a viable canoe sailing craft for estuary conditions?

          If it is an possibility what sort of information would I need to seek out in order to make up my mind?

          Any thoughts? No responsibility imposed on any opinion offered. The price is approx $US300 I think which is very good despite my intended use.

          You can also contact me off list : ratbagradio@...

          dave rley


        • almot09
          I like decks. Other than that - it looks like sailing wasn t in designer s plans (skeg and no rudder or leeboard is the reason why I think so). Which doesn t
          Message 4 of 30 , Jul 5, 2011
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            I like decks. Other than that - it looks like sailing wasn't in designer's plans (skeg and no rudder or leeboard is the reason why I think so). Which doesn't mean that you can't sail it. Most canoes that people sail here were not designed for sailing. We just sail them :-) ...

            Adding a rudder could be some pain.

            --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "RatbagMedia" <ratbagradio@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have my eye on a craft which although labeled a kayak seems very much in the 19th century traditional canoe mode.
            >
            > Here's an image.(Sorry best I can do)
            >
            > https://picasaweb.google.com/ratbagradio/KickbikeKettlebell#5624954692026541154
            >
            > So far I have these attributes . I have not seen or touched the thing.
            >
            > Custom Made Fibreglass with Varnished Plywood Decks
            > The cockpit is 500 wide x 1300 long x approx 150(!?) deep. (20"x51"x ? ) There is a fixed rudder (skeg I guess)that steers very straight, steering is by paddle.
            > It's 5.6 metres (18 feet) long.
            >
            > Given the proportions and seeming design is there any advice on offer towards the prospect I can convert this by adding sail and leeboard and rudder into a viable canoe sailing craft for estuary conditions?
            >
            > If it is an possibility what sort of information would I need to seek out in order to make up my mind?
            >
            > Any thoughts? No responsibility imposed on any opinion offered. The price is approx $US300 I think which is very good despite my intended use.
            >
            > You can also contact me off list : ratbagradio@...
            >
            > dave rley
            >
          • john colley
            Adding rudder.On my Stormbringer (a pirogue) I m going for a (Nordic style) steerboard.I have seen pictures somewhere of an interesting rudder fittted to the
            Message 5 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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              Adding rudder.On my Stormbringer (a pirogue) I'm going for a (Nordic style) steerboard.I have seen pictures somewhere of an interesting rudder fittted to the pointy stern of a canoe.


              From: almot09 <almot09@...>
              To: sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, 6 July 2011 4:25 PM
              Subject: [sailing_canoes] Re: Is this a potential sailer?

               
              I like decks. Other than that - it looks like sailing wasn't in designer's plans (skeg and no rudder or leeboard is the reason why I think so). Which doesn't mean that you can't sail it. Most canoes that people sail here were not designed for sailing. We just sail them :-) ...

              Adding a rudder could be some pain.

              -
              >



            • Jeff Clark
              I am thinking about a leeboard, and how it tends to heel a boat . If one were to hang an L-shaped weatherboard instead - so it pivots freely off the gunwale,
              Message 6 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                I am thinking about a leeboard, and how it tends to heel a boat .

                If one were to hang an L-shaped weatherboard instead - so it pivots
                freely off the gunwale, it should reduce leeward drift and reduce
                heeling as well.

                Am I missing something?

                Jeff
              • John Summers
                How is it that a leeboard tends to heel a boat? John Summers authenticboats@gmail.com *Check out my blog Playing with Boats
                Message 7 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                  How is it that a leeboard "tends to heel a boat?"

                  John Summers
                  authenticboats@...
                  Check out my blog Playing with Boats 



                  On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 8:11 AM, Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...> wrote:
                   

                  I am thinking about a leeboard, and how it tends to heel a boat .

                  If one were to hang an L-shaped weatherboard instead - so it pivots
                  freely off the gunwale, it should reduce leeward drift and reduce
                  heeling as well.

                  Am I missing something?

                  Jeff


                • Jeff Clark
                  ... I see it as a lever arm with water pressing against the outboard face. Jeff
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                    On 7/6/2011 09:50, John Summers wrote:  

                    How is it that a leeboard "tends to heel a boat?"

                    I see it as a lever arm with water pressing against the outboard face.

                    Jeff


                  • AUGUST HAHN
                    Speaking of rudders would anyone like to say anything about the steering oar concept i see on so many Proa sailing canoes ! seems like a simple but efficient
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                      Speaking of rudders would anyone like to say anything about the steering oar concept i see on so many Proa sailing canoes ! seems like a simple but efficient design ?

                      --- On Tue, 7/5/11, almost09 <almot09@...> wrote:

                      From: almot09 <almot09@...>
                      Subject: [sailing_canoes] Re: Is this a potential sailer?
                      To: sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tuesday, July 5, 2011, 11:25 PM

                       

                      I like decks. Other than that - it looks like sailing wasn't in designer's plans (skeg and no rudder or leeboard is the reason why I think so). Which doesn't mean that you can't sail it. Most canoes that people sail here were not designed for sailing. We just sail them :-) ...

                      Adding a rudder could be some pain.

                      --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, "RatbagMedia" <ratbagradio@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I have my eye on a craft which although labeled a kayak seems very much in the 19th century traditional canoe mode.
                      >
                      > Here's an image.(Sorry best I can do)
                      >
                      > https://picasaweb.google.com/ratbagradio/KickbikeKettlebell#5624954692026541154
                      >
                      > So far I have these attributes . I have not seen or touched the thing.
                      >
                      > Custom Made Fibreglass with Varnished Plywood Decks
                      > The cockpit is 500 wide x 1300 long x approx 150(!?) deep. (20"x51"x ? ) There is a fixed rudder (skeg I guess)that steers very straight, steering is by paddle.
                      > It's 5.6 metres (18 feet) long.
                      >
                      > Given the proportions and seeming design is there any advice on offer towards the prospect I can convert this by adding sail and leeboard and rudder into a viable canoe sailing craft for estuary conditions?
                      >
                      > If it is an possibility what sort of information would I need to seek out in order to make up my mind?
                      >
                      > Any thoughts? No responsibility imposed on any opinion offered. The price is approx $US300 I think which is very good despite my intended use.
                      >
                      > You can also contact me off list : ratbagradio@...
                      >
                      > dave rley
                      >

                    • John Summers
                      If anything, the leeboard would help counteract heeling in the short term [i.e., gust of wind heels boat, lateral pressure exerted on alternate sides of board
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                        If anything, the leeboard would help counteract heeling in the short term [i.e., gust of wind heels boat, lateral pressure exerted on alternate sides of board as boat heels and recovers]. In the longer term, the leeboard's contribution is almost all to provide lateral plane and very little to do with stability.

                        John Summers
                        authenticboats@...
                        Check out my blog Playing with Boats 



                        On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...> wrote:
                         

                        On 7/6/2011 09:50, John Summers wrote:
                         

                        How is it that a leeboard "tends to heel a boat?"

                        I see it as a lever arm with water pressing against the outboard face.

                        Jeff



                      • cecbell
                        I can t remember if a previous discussion on this topic took place here or on some other forum related to canoe sailing--perhaps a year ago? Whether it s a
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                          I can't remember if a previous discussion on this topic took place here
                          or on some other forum related to canoe sailing--perhaps a year ago?

                          Whether it's a leeboard, centerboard, weatherboard or keel, it works in
                          conjunction with the sail to contribute to heeling. The deeper the
                          board/keel, the greater the moment arm and the greater the heeling
                          moment (other things being equal).
                          Lateral plane helps dampen rolling in gusts, etc., but doesn't change
                          the ultimate stability any--the degree of heel in given conditions is
                          the same whether it rolls to that point quickly or slowly.

                          (Just thought I'd make my contribution to the confusion.)

                          --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, John Summers <authenticboats@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > If anything, the leeboard would help counteract heeling in the short
                          term
                          > [i.e., gust of wind heels boat, lateral pressure exerted on alternate
                          sides
                          > of board as boat heels and recovers]. In the longer term, the
                          leeboard's
                          > contribution is almost all to provide lateral plane and very little to
                          do
                          > with stability.
                          >
                          > John Summers
                          > authenticboats@...
                          > *Check out my blog Playing with Boats
                          <http://authenticboats.wordpress.com>
                          > *
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Jeff Clark jeffrey.j.clark@...wrote:
                          >
                          > > **
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ** On 7/6/2011 09:50, John Summers wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > How is it that a leeboard "tends to heel a boat?"
                          > >
                          > > I see it as a lever arm with water pressing against the outboard
                          face.
                          > >
                          > > Jeff
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Jeff Clark
                          ... Gust of wind does 2 things: it heels the boat (and so reduces pressure on the leeboard) but it also pushes the boat to leeward more which increases
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                            On 7/6/2011 15:38, John Summers wrote:  

                            If anything, the leeboard would help counteract heeling in the short term [i.e., gust of wind heels boat, lateral pressure exerted on alternate sides of board as boat heels and recovers]. In the longer term, the leeboard's contribution is almost all to provide lateral plane and very little to do with stability.

                            Gust of wind does 2 things: it heels the boat (and so reduces pressure on the leeboard) but it also pushes the boat to leeward more which increases pressure on the leeboard...these balance out so, let's not consider a gust of wind...its a red herring.

                            (In a steady wind) the Leeboard provides lateral plane yes, but its down below the rest of the lateral plane (the hull itself). As boat slides to leeward, there is pressure on the part of the leeboard that is below where it contacts the hull. Since the leeboard pivots at the place it contacts the hull, and it is bolted to the gunwale above...so, it will pull the gunwale down thus heeling the boat.

                            Jeff


                          • Jeff Clark
                            OK, so if a leeboard contributes to heeling (as do all other underwater vertical planes), what about using a weatherboard that is L-shaped (think about those
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                              OK, so if a leeboard contributes to heeling (as do all other underwater vertical planes), what about using a weatherboard that is L-shaped (think about those winged-keels on the 12 meter boats except with only one wing).  Such a weatherboard would be hinged at the gunwale to hang straight down if there was no leeward drift...and it would swing out as drift increased...in other words, it would act as a sideways sea anchor.

                              And it would not only NOT contribute to heeling motion, it would act to reduce heeling.

                              Jeff




                              On 7/6/2011 16:33, cecbell wrote:
                               


                              I can't remember if a previous discussion on this topic took place here
                              or on some other forum related to canoe sailing--perhaps a year ago?

                              Whether it's a leeboard, centerboard, weatherboard or keel, it works in
                              conjunction with the sail to contribute to heeling. The deeper the
                              board/keel, the greater the moment arm and the greater the heeling
                              moment (other things being equal).
                              Lateral plane helps dampen rolling in gusts, etc., but doesn't change
                              the ultimate stability any--the degree of heel in given conditions is
                              the same whether it rolls to that point quickly or slowly.

                              (Just thought I'd make my contribution to the confusion.)

                              --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, John Summers <authenticboats@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > If anything, the leeboard would help counteract heeling in the short
                              term
                              > [i.e., gust of wind heels boat, lateral pressure exerted on alternate
                              sides
                              > of board as boat heels and recovers]. In the longer term, the
                              leeboard's
                              > contribution is almost all to provide lateral plane and very little to
                              do
                              > with stability.
                              >
                              > John Summers
                              > authenticboats@...
                              > *Check out my blog Playing with Boats
                              <http://authenticboats.wordpress.com>
                              > *
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Jeff Clark jeffrey.j.clark@...wrote:
                              >
                              > > **
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ** On 7/6/2011 09:50, John Summers wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > How is it that a leeboard "tends to heel a boat?"
                              > >
                              > > I see it as a lever arm with water pressing against the outboard
                              face.
                              > >
                              > > Jeff
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >


                            • Jeff Clark
                              No one has disputed that a leeboard provides lateral plane... what I have said is that it ALSO produces a heeling moment... a heeling moment that my L-shaped
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                                No one has disputed that a leeboard provides lateral plane...

                                what I have said is that it ALSO produces a heeling moment...

                                a heeling moment that my L-shaped and hinged weatherboard does not produce...

                                in fact, it would reduce heeling - a significant advantage for a canoe, I would think.


                                Jeff


                                On 7/6/2011 19:05, John Summers wrote:
                                The hull is a buoyant object with a foil in a fluid above it and a foil in a fluid below it. The hull is the pivot point. Into this come a host of other factors, such as lift from the foils, but for a small boat like a sailing canoe, these are so small and the situation is so affected by trim and weight distribution that they are nearly notional. The main purpose of leeboards is to provide lateral plane



                              • Edward Maurer
                                Should I wade in here? Best not. Happy Sailing! Ed Edward C. Maurer Publisher *Canoe Sailing Magazine* editor@canoesailingmagazine.com (727) 798-2366
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                                  Should I wade in here? Best not.
                                  Happy Sailing!
                                  Ed

                                  Edward C. Maurer

                                  Publisher
                                  Canoe Sailing Magazine
                                  editor@...
                                  (727) 798-2366

                                  http://canoesailingmagazine.com
                                  http://canoeandkayaksailing.blogspot.com/
                                  http://paddlesail.blogspot.com/




                                  On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:33 PM, cecbell <cecbell@...> wrote:
                                   


                                  I can't remember if a previous discussion on this topic took place here
                                  or on some other forum related to canoe sailing--perhaps a year ago?

                                  Whether it's a leeboard, centerboard, weatherboard or keel, it works in
                                  conjunction with the sail to contribute to heeling. The deeper the
                                  board/keel, the greater the moment arm and the greater the heeling
                                  moment (other things being equal).
                                  Lateral plane helps dampen rolling in gusts, etc., but doesn't change
                                  the ultimate stability any--the degree of heel in given conditions is
                                  the same whether it rolls to that point quickly or slowly.

                                  (Just thought I'd make my contribution to the confusion.)

                                  --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, John Summers <authenticboats@...>
                                  wrote:


                                  >
                                  > If anything, the leeboard would help counteract heeling in the short
                                  term
                                  > [i.e., gust of wind heels boat, lateral pressure exerted on alternate
                                  sides
                                  > of board as boat heels and recovers]. In the longer term, the
                                  leeboard's
                                  > contribution is almost all to provide lateral plane and very little to
                                  do
                                  > with stability.
                                  >
                                  > John Summers
                                  > authenticboats@...
                                  > *Check out my blog Playing with Boats
                                  <http://authenticboats.wordpress.com>
                                  > *
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Jeff Clark jeffrey.j.clark@...wrote:

                                  >
                                  > > **
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ** On 7/6/2011 09:50, John Summers wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > How is it that a leeboard "tends to heel a boat?"
                                  > >
                                  > > I see it as a lever arm with water pressing against the outboard
                                  face.
                                  > >
                                  > > Jeff
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >


                                • c o'donnell
                                  No, not really. I ve sailed canoes with and without leeboards and without, you can certainly heel like crazy. The heeling lever (mast & sail) is longer than
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                                    No, not really. I've sailed canoes with and without leeboards and without, you can certainly heel like crazy. The heeling lever (mast & sail) is longer than the lateral plane lever.

                                    On Jul 6, 2011, at 5:16 PM, Jeff Clark wrote:

                                     

                                    On 7/6/2011 15:38, John Summers wrote:

                                     

                                    If anything, the leeboard would help counteract heeling in the short term [i.e., gust of wind heels boat, lateral pressure exerted on alternate sides of board as boat heels and recovers]. In the longer term, the leeboard's contribution is almost all to provide lateral plane and very little to do with stability.

                                    Gust of wind does 2 things: it heels the boat (and so reduces pressure on the leeboard) but it also pushes the boat to leeward more which increases pressure on the leeboard...these balance out so, let's not consider a gust of wind...its a red herring.

                                    (In a steady wind) the Leeboard provides lateral plane yes, but its down below the rest of the lateral plane (the hull itself). As boat slides to leeward, there is pressure on the part of the leeboard that is below where it contacts the hull. Since the leeboard pivots at the place it contacts the hull, and it is bolted to the gunwale above...so, it will pull the gunwale down thus heeling the boat.

                                    Jeff





                                    === craig o'donnell
                                    Box 66 Still Pond Md 21667
                                    Cheap Technical Officer: HttP://www.thecheappages.com



                                  • almot09
                                    ... stern of a canoe. I saw them too, nicely cut, about 2-3 months ago. May be here http://forum.woodenboat.com/index.php . Adding rudder gudgeons to pointed
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jul 6, 2011
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                                      >I have seen pictures somewhere of an interesting rudder fittted to the pointy
                                      stern of a canoe.

                                      I saw them too, nicely cut, about 2-3 months ago. May be here
                                      http://forum.woodenboat.com/index.php .

                                      Adding rudder gudgeons to pointed stern isn't a problem - Duckworks have a good
                                      assortment: http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/p-g/index.htm. But the actual rudder and controls - tiller or whatever - you have to make, or pay a lot for some parts from sailing dinghy. Solway Dory has relatively inexpensive rudder and gudgeons for pointed stern @160GBP http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/products/accessories/, but this is in UK and not too cheap either - just relatively inexpensive.
                                    • john colley
                                      Um,,,The lee board is there to stop side drift.It also helps counter the wind as IT(the wind) heels the boat.The board, either lee,centre or off centre,are
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jul 7, 2011
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                                        Um,,,The lee board is there to stop side drift.It also helps counter the wind as IT(the wind) heels the boat.The board, either lee,centre or off centre,are proportional to the sail area.Water being more dense than air, is it naturally smaller.


                                        From: Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...>
                                        To: sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wednesday, 6 July 2011 10:11 PM
                                        Subject: [sailing_canoes] Weatherboard

                                         
                                        I am thinking about a leeboard, and how it tends to heel a boat .

                                        If one were to hang an L-shaped weatherboard instead - so it pivots
                                        freely off the gunwale, it should reduce leeward drift and reduce
                                        heeling as well.

                                        Am I missing something?

                                        Jeff



                                      • john colley
                                        Countering the effects of the wind. ________________________________ From: Jeff Clark To: sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jul 7, 2011
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                                          Countering the effects of the wind.


                                          From: Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...>
                                          To: sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thursday, 7 July 2011 12:17 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [sailing_canoes] Weatherboard

                                           
                                          On 7/6/2011 09:50, John Summers wrote:
                                           
                                          How is it that a leeboard "tends to heel a boat?"
                                          I see it as a lever arm with water pressing against the outboard face.

                                          Jeff




                                        • john colley
                                          i see where your coming from.so it pays to shape your lee board properly.thus the water flow should try to corect heeling?combined forces providing forward
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jul 7, 2011
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                                            i see where your coming from.so it pays to shape your lee board properly.thus the water flow should try to corect heeling?combined forces providing forward movement?



                                            From: Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...>
                                            To: sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Thursday, 7 July 2011 7:16 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [sailing_canoes] Weatherboard

                                             
                                            On 7/6/2011 15:38, John Summers wrote:
                                             
                                            If anything, the leeboard would help counteract heeling in the short term [i.e., gust of wind heels boat, lateral pressure exerted on alternate sides of board as boat heels and recovers]. In the longer term, the leeboard's contribution is almost all to provide lateral plane and very little to do with stability.
                                            Gust of wind does 2 things: it heels the boat (and so reduces pressure on the leeboard) but it also pushes the boat to leeward more which increases pressure on the leeboard...these balance out so, let's not consider a gust of wind...its a red herring.

                                            (In a steady wind) the Leeboard provides lateral plane yes, but its down below the rest of the lateral plane (the hull itself). As boat slides to leeward, there is pressure on the part of the leeboard that is below where it contacts the hull. Since the leeboard pivots at the place it contacts the hull, and it is bolted to the gunwale above...so, it will pull the gunwale down thus heeling the boat.

                                            Jeff




                                          • c o'donnell
                                            Well, try it and report back. Heeling isn t caused by a board acting lateral plane. ... === craig o donnell dadadata@atlanticbb.net Box 66 Still Pond Md
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jul 7, 2011
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                                              Well, try it and report back. Heeling isn't "caused" by a board acting lateral plane.


                                              On Jul 6, 2011, at 6:56 PM, Jeff Clark wrote:

                                               

                                              OK, so if a leeboard contributes to heeling (as do all other underwater vertical planes), what about using a weatherboard that is L-shaped (think about those winged-keels on the 12 meter boats except with only one wing).  Such a weatherboard would be hinged at the gunwale to hang straight down if there was no leeward drift...and it would swing out as drift increased...in other words, it would act as a sideways sea anchor.

                                              And it would not only NOT contribute to heeling motion, it would act to reduce heeling.

                                              Jeff




                                              On 7/6/2011 16:33, cecbell wrote:

                                               


                                              I can't remember if a previous discussion on this topic took place here
                                              or on some other forum related to canoe sailing--perhaps a year ago?

                                              Whether it's a leeboard, centerboard, weatherboard or keel, it works in
                                              conjunction with the sail to contribute to heeling. The deeper the
                                              board/keel, the greater the moment arm and the greater the heeling
                                              moment (other things being equal).
                                              Lateral plane helps dampen rolling in gusts, etc., but doesn't change
                                              the ultimate stability any--the degree of heel in given conditions is
                                              the same whether it rolls to that point quickly or slowly.

                                              (Just thought I'd make my contribution to the confusion.)

                                              --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, John Summers <authenticboats@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > If anything, the leeboard would help counteract heeling in the short
                                              term
                                              > [i.e., gust of wind heels boat, lateral pressure exerted on alternate
                                              sides
                                              > of board as boat heels and recovers]. In the longer term, the
                                              leeboard's
                                              > contribution is almost all to provide lateral plane and very little to
                                              do
                                              > with stability.
                                              >
                                              > John Summers
                                              > authenticboats@...
                                              > *Check out my blog Playing with Boats
                                              <http://authenticboats.wordpress.com>
                                              > *
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Jeff Clark jeffrey.j.clark@...wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > **
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ** On 7/6/2011 09:50, John Summers wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > How is it that a leeboard "tends to heel a boat?"
                                              > >
                                              > > I see it as a lever arm with water pressing against the outboard
                                              face.
                                              > >
                                              > > Jeff
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >





                                              === craig o'donnell
                                              Box 66 Still Pond Md 21667
                                              Cheap Technical Officer: HttP://www.thecheappages.com



                                            • Herbert Ross
                                              Jeff, I think you may be missing something. Priority. If you want to reduce heeling you could go with a 56 LB. bronze centerboard and 120 lbs. of lead shot
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jul 7, 2011
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                                                Jeff,
                                                I think you may be missing something. Priority. If you want to reduce heeling you could go with a 56 LB. bronze centerboard and 120 lbs. of lead shot ballast. This howerver didn't work out so well for W.Baden-Powell in the 1886 International Challenge. Sitting out on the rail is half the fun of sailing a canoe!

                                                --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I am thinking about a leeboard, and how it tends to heel a boat .
                                                >
                                                > If one were to hang an L-shaped weatherboard instead - so it pivots
                                                > freely off the gunwale, it should reduce leeward drift and reduce
                                                > heeling as well.
                                                >
                                                > Am I missing something?
                                                >
                                                > Jeff
                                                >
                                              • fishwics
                                                ... Yes, it works, PROVIDED that the horizontal bit (when at rest: which I shall call the Ell ) pulls away from the hull (downwards at rest) and extends under
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jul 7, 2011
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                                                  --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > OK, so if a leeboard contributes to heeling (as do all other underwater
                                                  > vertical planes), what about using a weatherboard that is L-shaped
                                                  > (think about those winged-keels on the 12 meter boats except with only
                                                  > one wing). Such a weatherboard would be hinged at the gunwale to hang
                                                  > straight down if there was no leeward drift...and it would swing out as
                                                  > drift increased...in other words, it would act as a sideways sea anchor.


                                                  Yes, it works, PROVIDED that the horizontal bit (when at rest: which I shall call the "Ell") pulls away from the hull (downwards at rest) and extends under the hull (not away from it).

                                                  When you're sailing the board lifts sideways so that only the Ell remains in the water. That provides lateral plane to windward, pulling away from the hull (i.e pulling to windward). The Ell needs to be about 4% of your sail area, i.e as big as a normal leeboard.

                                                  If mounted on the gunwale then it doesn't provide much contribution to keeping the boat upright. If mounted some way outboard then it can.

                                                  To see examples, Google the proas of Fritz Roth, Giles Whittaker, et al (It's sometimes called a captive hapa)

                                                  Simon
                                                • fishwics
                                                  ... Yes, it works, PROVIDED that the horizontal bit (when at rest: which I shall call the Ell ) pulls away from the hull (downwards at rest) and extends under
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jul 7, 2011
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                                                    --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > OK, so if a leeboard contributes to heeling (as do all other underwater
                                                    > vertical planes), what about using a weatherboard that is L-shaped
                                                    > (think about those winged-keels on the 12 meter boats except with only
                                                    > one wing). Such a weatherboard would be hinged at the gunwale to hang
                                                    > straight down if there was no leeward drift...and it would swing out as
                                                    > drift increased...in other words, it would act as a sideways sea anchor.


                                                    Yes, it works, PROVIDED that the horizontal bit (when at rest: which I shall call the "Ell") pulls away from the hull (downwards at rest) and extends under the hull (not away from it).

                                                    When you're sailing the board lifts sideways so that only the Ell remains in the water. That provides lateral plane to windward, pulling away from the hull (i.e pulling to windward). The Ell needs to be about 4% of your sail area, i.e as big as a normal leeboard.

                                                    If mounted on the gunwale then it doesn't provide much contribution to keeping the boat upright. If mounted some way outboard then it can.

                                                    To see examples, Google the proas of Fritz Roth, Giles Whittaker, et al (It's sometimes called a captive hapa or a vector fin)

                                                    Simon
                                                  • Jeff Clark
                                                    Thank you for your (constructive) input below. Jeff
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jul 7, 2011
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                                                      Thank you for your (constructive) input below.

                                                      Jeff


                                                      On 7/7/2011 11:58, fishwics wrote:
                                                       



                                                      --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > OK, so if a leeboard contributes to heeling (as do all other underwater
                                                      > vertical planes), what about using a weatherboard that is L-shaped
                                                      > (think about those winged-keels on the 12 meter boats except with only
                                                      > one wing). Such a weatherboard would be hinged at the gunwale to hang
                                                      > straight down if there was no leeward drift...and it would swing out as
                                                      > drift increased...in other words, it would act as a sideways sea anchor.

                                                      Yes, it works, PROVIDED that the horizontal bit (when at rest: which I shall call the "Ell") pulls away from the hull (downwards at rest) and extends under the hull (not away from it).

                                                      When you're sailing the board lifts sideways so that only the Ell remains in the water. That provides lateral plane to windward, pulling away from the hull (i.e pulling to windward). The Ell needs to be about 4% of your sail area, i.e as big as a normal leeboard.

                                                      If mounted on the gunwale then it doesn't provide much contribution to keeping the boat upright. If mounted some way outboard then it can.

                                                      To see examples, Google the proas of Fritz Roth, Giles Whittaker, et al (It's sometimes called a captive hapa or a vector fin)

                                                      Simon


                                                    • Jeff Clark
                                                      Per your fritz Roth tip, I see this very short video: http://www.proadesign.de/100_0151a.mov Maybe I should refer to this weatherboard a J-shape rather than
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jul 7, 2011
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                                                        Per your fritz Roth tip, I see this very short video:

                                                        http://www.proadesign.de/100_0151a.mov

                                                        Maybe I should refer to this weatherboard a J-shape rather than L-shape.

                                                        Jeff



                                                        On 7/7/2011 11:58, fishwics wrote:
                                                         



                                                        --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > OK, so if a leeboard contributes to heeling (as do all other underwater
                                                        > vertical planes), what about using a weatherboard that is L-shaped
                                                        > (think about those winged-keels on the 12 meter boats except with only
                                                        > one wing). Such a weatherboard would be hinged at the gunwale to hang
                                                        > straight down if there was no leeward drift...and it would swing out as
                                                        > drift increased...in other words, it would act as a sideways sea anchor.

                                                        Yes, it works, PROVIDED that the horizontal bit (when at rest: which I shall call the "Ell") pulls away from the hull (downwards at rest) and extends under the hull (not away from it).

                                                        When you're sailing the board lifts sideways so that only the Ell remains in the water. That provides lateral plane to windward, pulling away from the hull (i.e pulling to windward). The Ell needs to be about 4% of your sail area, i.e as big as a normal leeboard.

                                                        If mounted on the gunwale then it doesn't provide much contribution to keeping the boat upright. If mounted some way outboard then it can.

                                                        To see examples, Google the proas of Fritz Roth, Giles Whittaker, et al (It's sometimes called a captive hapa or a vector fin)

                                                        Simon


                                                      • c o'donnell
                                                        Or Bruce Foil. ... === craig o donnell dadadata@atlanticbb.net Box 66 Still Pond Md 21667 Cheap Technical Officer: HttP://www.thecheappages.com
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Jul 7, 2011
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                                                          Or Bruce Foil.

                                                          On Jul 7, 2011, at 11:58 AM, fishwics wrote:

                                                           



                                                          --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > OK, so if a leeboard contributes to heeling (as do all other underwater
                                                          > vertical planes), what about using a weatherboard that is L-shaped
                                                          > (think about those winged-keels on the 12 meter boats except with only
                                                          > one wing). Such a weatherboard would be hinged at the gunwale to hang
                                                          > straight down if there was no leeward drift...and it would swing out as
                                                          > drift increased...in other words, it would act as a sideways sea anchor.

                                                          Yes, it works, PROVIDED that the horizontal bit (when at rest: which I shall call the "Ell") pulls away from the hull (downwards at rest) and extends under the hull (not away from it).

                                                          When you're sailing the board lifts sideways so that only the Ell remains in the water. That provides lateral plane to windward, pulling away from the hull (i.e pulling to windward). The Ell needs to be about 4% of your sail area, i.e as big as a normal leeboard.

                                                          If mounted on the gunwale then it doesn't provide much contribution to keeping the boat upright. If mounted some way outboard then it can.

                                                          To see examples, Google the proas of Fritz Roth, Giles Whittaker, et al (It's sometimes called a captive hapa or a vector fin)

                                                          Simon



                                                          === craig o'donnell
                                                          Box 66 Still Pond Md 21667
                                                          Cheap Technical Officer: HttP://www.thecheappages.com



                                                        • Tim
                                                          For even more entertainment, look through Mr. Smith s amazing sailboats- http://www.geocities.com/aerohydro/home.htm He pioneered a lot of ideas, and a canoe
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Jul 7, 2011
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                                                            For even more entertainment, look through Mr. Smith's amazing sailboats- http://www.geocities.com/aerohydro/home.htm

                                                            He pioneered a lot of ideas, and a canoe would provide a great starting spot for experimenting with some of them.

                                                            Tim Greiner


                                                            --- In sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > Thank you for your (constructive) input below.
                                                            >
                                                            > Jeff
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > On 7/7/2011 11:58, fishwics wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > > >
                                                            > > > OK, so if a leeboard contributes to heeling (as do all other underwater
                                                            > > > vertical planes), what about using a weatherboard that is L-shaped
                                                            > > > (think about those winged-keels on the 12 meter boats except with only
                                                            > > > one wing). Such a weatherboard would be hinged at the gunwale to hang
                                                            > > > straight down if there was no leeward drift...and it would swing out as
                                                            > > > drift increased...in other words, it would act as a sideways sea anchor.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Yes, it works, PROVIDED that the horizontal bit (when at rest: which I
                                                            > > shall call the "Ell") pulls away from the hull (downwards at rest) and
                                                            > > extends under the hull (not away from it).
                                                            > >
                                                            > > When you're sailing the board lifts sideways so that only the Ell
                                                            > > remains in the water. That provides lateral plane to windward, pulling
                                                            > > away from the hull (i.e pulling to windward). The Ell needs to be
                                                            > > about 4% of your sail area, i.e as big as a normal leeboard.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > If mounted on the gunwale then it doesn't provide much contribution to
                                                            > > keeping the boat upright. If mounted some way outboard then it can.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > To see examples, Google the proas of Fritz Roth, Giles Whittaker, et
                                                            > > al (It's sometimes called a captive hapa or a vector fin)
                                                            > >
                                                            > > Simon
                                                            > >
                                                          • Jeff Clark
                                                            Putting outriggers aside (pun), it seems to me that the J-shaped weatherboard can be used on a mono-hull whereas the Bruce foil can and should only be used as
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Jul 8, 2011
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                                                              Putting outriggers aside (pun), it seems to me that the J-shaped weatherboard can be used on a mono-hull whereas the Bruce foil can and should only be used as a lee device and needs an outrigger to carry it.

                                                              See:

                                                              http://www.ahoy-boats.co.uk/bruce-foil.htm

                                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_foil



                                                              Jeff




                                                              On 7/7/2011 17:50, c o'donnell wrote:  

                                                              Or Bruce Foil.



                                                            • c o'donnell
                                                              No, it can be used on a proa where the ama s to windward. ... === craig o donnell dadadata@atlanticbb.net Box 66 Still Pond Md 21667 Cheap Technical Officer:
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Jul 8, 2011
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                                                                No, it can be used on a proa where the ama's to windward.

                                                                On Jul 8, 2011, at 10:25 AM, Jeff Clark wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                Putting outriggers aside (pun), it seems to me that the J-shaped weatherboard can be used on a mono-hull whereas the Bruce foil can and should only be used as a lee device and needs an outrigger to carry it.

                                                                See:

                                                                http://www.ahoy-boats.co.uk/bruce-foil.htm

                                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_foil



                                                                Jeff




                                                                On 7/7/2011 17:50, c o'donnell wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                Or Bruce Foil.






                                                                === craig o'donnell
                                                                Box 66 Still Pond Md 21667
                                                                Cheap Technical Officer: HttP://www.thecheappages.com



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