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Re: [sailing_canoes] Close Hauling

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  • Daniel Lockwood
    To windward on a lake? O.K. To windward against a tide current where I live on the Georgia coast? No. Better to stow the rig and paddle along shore, taking
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 1 5:53 AM
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      To windward on a lake? O.K. To windward against a tide current where I live on the Georgia coast? No. Better to stow the rig and paddle along shore, taking advantage of wind and current eddies. A sailing canoe is better at this than almost any other small sailboat, especially if it has a sail system that can be quickly and easily stowed to allow for comfortable paddling..

      On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:06 PM, John Summers <authenticboats@...> wrote:
       

      Sticking with the three canoes I mentioned earlier, the Old Town is really a conventional paddling canoe 17' long x 34" beam with an add-on rig. I sail it sitting on my rear with a tiller line that runs from the rudder yoke all the way around the inside of the boat. I'll occasionally lean over to one side and hook an elbow ove the windward rail, but I don't bother getting up on the gunwale [I have other boats for that]. So, in a puff the rail will get close to the water, but normally it's sailed fairly upright. I haven't calculated it in detail, but I can't believe that we're getting much closer than 60 degrees off the wind at best.
       
      The other two canoes, the 16-30 and the IC, have sliding seats, so on the wind you're usually outboard of the hull--you're definitely the ballast in these boats. They're both able to get up towards 45 degrees off the wind, with the IC pointing a little higher owing to having a jib. The IC planes upwind so in the right conditions it will also draw the apparent wind a bit ahead of the beam. Both of these boats are happiest and fastest sailed flat or at very shallow angles of heel.
       

      John Summers
      authenticboats@...
      Check out my blog Playing with Boats 



      On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...> wrote:
       

      OK, thanks, your figures average out to 1:37  ie 1 sq ft of "keel" for every 37 sq ft of sail.

      Now, approximately, how close can you get into a moderate wind, minimal chop, at what angle of heel?

      (I assume you have no outrigger nor are you hiked out nor do you have crew-ballast.)

      Is the "rail" in the water?

      Jeff




      On 1/28/2011 22:07, John Summers wrote:
       
      Some comparative figures:
       
      My 1937 17' Old Town HW has two leeboards, only one of which is usually in the water at any one time. Immersed area below the hull is about 9" x 20" = 180" sq /144 = 1.25 sq feet. Immersed rudder area is about 10" x 10" = 100" sq /144 = .69 sq feet. My boat also has a full-length external keel which is about 1" deep. So, there's almost two square feet of lateral plane at any one time with about 45 square feet in a single lateen.
       
      My 16-30 decked sailing canoe design has an immersed daggerboard area of 10" x 24" = 240" sq/144 = 1.66 sq feet and an immersed rudder area of 7" x 14" = 98" sq/144 = .68 sq feet. So, there's just over two and a quarter square feet of lateral plane with 90 square feet of sail in two leg-of-mutton sails.
       
      My old-school International 10 square metre canoe has an immersed daggerboard area of 10" x 30" = 300" sq/144 = 2.08 square feet and an immersed rudder area of 9" x 16" = 144 sq " = 1sq foot. So, there's about 3 square feet of lateral plane for 107 square feet of sail in a high aspect ratio sloop rig.
       
      The Old Town goes to windward deliberately, but effectively, and sails best no higher than a close-ish reach. The 16-30 sails upwind well on a true beat. The IC sails like a witch upwind.
       
      Early cruising canoes like the Shadow design of the 1880s had only a shallow external keel 2-3" deep, but could reportedly sail on a close reach using fully battened lug rigs.
       
      J
       

      John Summers
      authenticboats@...
      Check out my blog Playing with Boats 



      On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 6:16 PM, Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...> wrote:
       

      So, what would be an appropriate ratio of sail area to lateral plane area - to break thru the 90 degree barrier?


      Jeff




      On 1/28/2011 18:05, John Summers wrote:
       

      The possibilities are great, but you'll want a bit of lateral plane to explore them.


      John Summers
      authenticboats@...
      Check out my blog Playing with Boats 



      On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 5:30 PM, john colley <Helliconia54@...> wrote:
       
      Fitted with a lee board to prevent sidewards drift,and a fore and aft sail? Nothing. How close you sail to windward though will depend on many factors.I'm about to find out soon when i try sailing my pirogue.



      From: Jeff Clark <jeffrey.j.clark@...>
      To: sailing_canoes@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sat, 29 January, 2011 4:40:53 AM
      Subject: [sailing_canoes] Close Hauling

       

      On the subject of sailing in a canoe,

      what are the possibilities, if any,

      of sailing to windward?

      Jeff


       






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