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[sacredlandscapelist] Re: Sacred Writing - LOGOS

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  • Mark Swaney
    Chris and everyone, I understand your fascination with the written word, Chris. It is one of the hallmarks of western religion that there is a Sacred Book
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 22, 2000
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      Chris and everyone,

      I understand your fascination with the written word, Chris. It is one
      of the hallmarks of western religion that there is a Sacred Book that Tells
      All. The Koran, the Old and New Testaments. But of special intrest to me
      is the idea of sacred writing. This is the concept of scripture, as
      different from "ordinary" writing. In old times, it was a tradition amoung
      the common people of China that whatever is written is true. For them,
      EVERY written document was a kind of scripture. In the west, and early on,
      maybe before 1600 BC? the Hebrews are credited with inventing the idea of
      Scripture, Sacred Writing. Later interpretations of the scripture took what
      might be thought of as an extreme view of the sacredness of scripture, the
      Kabballah. Before the Hebrews the Egyptians had magical texts, magic
      writing that was supposed to have the power to alter the physical world.
      What is the origin of these ideas?

      The book review that Dan posted places the origin of writing in the
      functions of the human brain, specifically one side of it over the other. I
      won't go that far, and I am sceptical about claims that females use one side
      of their brains while males use the other. Seems like balderdash to me.
      I've got BOTH halves don't I? What keeps me from playing with the Female
      half of my brain? Gee - sounds like fun, I'll be back in a little while.

      Anyway, the roots of writing and our thinking about writing definitely
      go deep into the psyche, which is why all the religions and other dogmatic
      systems (Mao's Little Red Book, Das Capital, Mein Kampf) like to tap into
      the psychological effects of a structured symbology. Your intrest in the
      ideas about the New Testament Logos is shared by a lot of us, Dan Washburn
      recently sent me a great book "Jesus Christ - Sun of God" by David Fideler.
      In the book Fideler writes a good deal about the Logos and the Gnostic
      Christians and the early Christian Church. Read about the visions of Ramon
      Lull. Now there was a guy with a head full of Letters and Symbols!

      Mark Swaney
    • Pam Giese
      Mark --I ve wondered too, where the source of the link of word to magical manifest lies...In Pataljali s aphorism he states that a yogi always speaks the
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 23, 2000
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        Mark --I've wondered too, where the source of the link of word to magical
        manifest lies...In Pataljali's aphorism he states that "a yogi always speaks
        the truth and by always speaking the truth what he averts become
        truth" --it's the expansion of the dictum "to thine oneself be true"...by
        ridding oneself of self doubt and self questioning, one can manifest great
        things...

        One of my favorite sources on sacred alphabet is Nigel Pennick's "Magical
        Alphabet". Besides introducing western alphabets from cabala to runes, he
        has chapters devoted to anagrams and masonic craftsmen symbols --some of
        these divorce from traditional alphabets. The latter hold a special place
        in my heart because it provides a glimpse into the use of symbols by persons
        who weren't completely literate. There are grades of literacy and various
        degrees on complex symbols seem to be a way to broach the gap between the
        minority literate popular and the guild members who had moderate literate
        skills. When I think of some of the complex alchemical mandalas that Adam
        Maclean has published, I can't help but think that such detailed and deep
        images existed to assist initiates who had not quite masters reading and
        writing. Maybe it's an undo sensitivity on my part, being only one
        generation away from illiterate family members, but I think sometimes we
        become too comfortable in the verbal world. I work in system design where
        there are separate camps between those who view systems graphically and need
        to see diagrams and formulas in order to conceive, and those that need to
        see written words and definitions. There does seem to be a marked
        difference between how different types of people process information.

        Lately I've been reading David Fieldler's "Jesus Sun of God" and Blight Bond
        and Lea's "Gematria". I see how the numbers come together, I follow the
        geometric associations, but I wonder, "How should I use this information?"
        Do I need to fluidly process ancient Greek, or is there a gematric routine
        that makes sense in 21st centur English? If I want to go farther, if I want
        to do more than read associations and gematric associations and formaulas
        and do more than nod "aha, aha"..how do I take it? Do I go backwards to
        Greek or Hebrew, to do I use something like Ulian to try to discover from
        21st century English?

        Thoughts?


        Pam
        pgiese@...
        http://www.snd.softfarm.com/pws/pgiese

        "Blessed are the cracked, for they shall let in the light..."
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Mark Swaney <mswaney@...>
        To: <sacredlandscapelist@egroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2000 9:28 AM
        Subject: [sacredlandscapelist] Re: Sacred Writing - LOGOS


        > Chris and everyone,
        >
        > I understand your fascination with the written word, Chris. It is one
        > of the hallmarks of western religion that there is a Sacred Book that
        Tells
        > All. The Koran, the Old and New Testaments. But of special intrest to me
        > is the idea of sacred writing. This is the concept of scripture, as
        > different from "ordinary" writing. In old times, it was a tradition
        amoung
        > the common people of China that whatever is written is true. For them,
        > EVERY written document was a kind of scripture. In the west, and early
        on,
        > maybe before 1600 BC? the Hebrews are credited with inventing the idea of
        > Scripture, Sacred Writing. Later interpretations of the scripture took
        what
        > might be thought of as an extreme view of the sacredness of scripture, the
        > Kabballah. Before the Hebrews the Egyptians had magical texts, magic
        > writing that was supposed to have the power to alter the physical world.
        > What is the origin of these ideas?
        >
        > The book review that Dan posted places the origin of writing in the
        > functions of the human brain, specifically one side of it over the other.
        I
        > won't go that far, and I am sceptical about claims that females use one
        side
        > of their brains while males use the other. Seems like balderdash to me.
        > I've got BOTH halves don't I? What keeps me from playing with the Female
        > half of my brain? Gee - sounds like fun, I'll be back in a little while.
        >
        > Anyway, the roots of writing and our thinking about writing definitely
        > go deep into the psyche, which is why all the religions and other dogmatic
        > systems (Mao's Little Red Book, Das Capital, Mein Kampf) like to tap into
        > the psychological effects of a structured symbology. Your intrest in the
        > ideas about the New Testament Logos is shared by a lot of us, Dan Washburn
        > recently sent me a great book "Jesus Christ - Sun of God" by David
        Fideler.
        > In the book Fideler writes a good deal about the Logos and the Gnostic
        > Christians and the early Christian Church. Read about the visions of
        Ramon
        > Lull. Now there was a guy with a head full of Letters and Symbols!
        >
        > Mark Swaney
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > -- Talk to your group with your own voice!
        > -- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=sacredlandscapelist&m=1
        >
      • Dan Washburn
        ... Hi, Pam - This is just the question that I have been working on for a long time. Other than the Aha! experience of reverence for sacred beauty, what does
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 25, 2000
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          Pam Giese wrote:

          > Lately I've been reading David Fieldler's "Jesus Sun of God" and Blight Bond
          > and Lea's "Gematria". I see how the numbers come together, I follow the
          > geometric associations, but I wonder, "How should I use this information?"
          > Do I need to fluidly process ancient Greek, or is there a gematric routine
          > that makes sense in 21st centur English? If I want to go farther, if I want
          > to do more than read associations and gematric associations and formaulas
          > and do more than nod "aha, aha"..how do I take it? Do I go backwards to
          > Greek or Hebrew, to do I use something like Ulian to try to discover from
          > 21st century English?
          >
          > Thoughts?

          Hi, Pam - This is just the question that I have been working on for a long
          time. Other than the Aha! experience of reverence for sacred beauty, what does
          the secret gematria/geometry get you?. How do you use it to create cosmic
          harmony within yourself? I believe the secret gematria/geometry of the NT was
          connected with a method of meditation used in first century galilee called
          concentration of the heart.

          My web site has two essays, one called Jesus Meditation and the other
          Concentration of the Heart, that will tell you alot of my thinking. I'm
          reserving the full connection between the sacred geomety and the method of deep
          meditation Jesus used until I can set it out in detail in a book I'm writing
          (very slowly!). Take a look and tell me what you think.

          http://www.netmastersinc.com/secrets/


          When you are talking Patanjali Yoga meditation or Buddhist concentrative
          meditation you are talking about deep concentration that brings the mind to a
          standstill. Generally we think of meditation as focus on a mantra, per the
          influence of the Maharishi and his popularization of Transcendental meditation.
          Images and feeling can also be used and I believe that certain geometric symbols
          with their associated psychological states were used in early christianity as
          the objects of deep meditation. The results can be amazing.


          If you are into Fideler and Bond and Lea, you should also take a look at Dan
          Gleason's site. He has done a vast amount of work on gematria/geometry in the
          NT, though I don't agree with everything that he says.

          http://www.jesus8880.com/

          Good Luck in the quest,

          Dan W.
        • Mark Swaney
          Pam and everyone, ... I also am fascinated by alphabets. I bought Pennick s book Sacred Alphabets and I think it is one of the most valuable books I own. I
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 27, 2000
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            Pam and everyone,




            Pam Giese wrote:

            > Mark --I've wondered too, where the source of the link of word to magical
            > manifest lies...In Pataljali's aphorism he states that "a yogi always speaks
            > the truth and by always speaking the truth what he averts become
            > truth" --it's the expansion of the dictum "to thine oneself be true"...by
            > ridding oneself of self doubt and self questioning, one can manifest great
            > things...
            >
            > One of my favorite sources on sacred alphabet is Nigel Pennick's "Magical
            > Alphabet". Besides introducing western alphabets from cabala to runes, he
            > has chapters devoted to anagrams and masonic craftsmen symbols --some of
            > these divorce from traditional alphabets.

            I also am fascinated by alphabets. I bought Pennick's book "Sacred Alphabets"
            and I think it is one of the most valuable books I own. I bought it originally
            because I wanted to learn to write the alphabets of the ancient world. I
            managed to learn to letter in Hebrew in a fair hand, after getting the right
            tools, and Greek I knew from engineering school, but I also added Runic and I'm
            working on some others like Coelbren and Sanscrit. The Tibetean script is
            pretty cool too. But Pennick touches on so much other valuable information in
            his work that I think he could expand his book. I would love to have something
            like an Encyclopedia of Alphabets.

            Knowledge of the old alphabets is esssential to some aspects of my intrest
            in the mathematical content of spiritual thought. Especially since the Greek
            and Hebrew alphabets are what I call Cabbalistic alphabets meaning that the
            members have a numerical intrepretation as well as a lingistic or literary
            intrepretation. The interchange of meaning in a single symbol is, I think, a
            subtle but powerful concept that has not been recognized as such. It's hard to
            explain, but if anyone is familiar with Godel's Theorm they will understand what
            I mean. The "hook" that makes Godel's Theorm "work" is based on the idea of
            numbering mathematical statements, the mathematics of mathematics, or
            meta-mathematics. In a similar sense the ability to intrepret literary
            statements as mathematical (or at least numerical) statements may have the
            potential to provide tools of expression that are more "powerful" than our
            ordinary language. Powerful in the sense that the symbology is more successful
            at stimulating certain portions of the brain.

            > The latter hold a special place
            > in my heart because it provides a glimpse into the use of symbols by persons
            > who weren't completely literate. There are grades of literacy and various
            > degrees on complex symbols seem to be a way to broach the gap between the
            > minority literate popular and the guild members who had moderate literate
            > skills. When I think of some of the complex alchemical mandalas that Adam
            > Maclean has published, I can't help but think that such detailed and deep
            > images existed to assist initiates who had not quite masters reading and
            > writing. Maybe it's an undo sensitivity on my part, being only one
            > generation away from illiterate family members, but I think sometimes we
            > become too comfortable in the verbal world.

            Your misgivings on this subject were shared by some in the ancient world.
            Everyone is familar with my own fetish for the mathematical, but I believe that
            written symbols for numbers preceeded symbols for letters or sounds. I would
            someday like to see a good analysis on the effects of an alphabetic written
            language as opposed to a heiroglyphically based language like Chinese or
            Egyptian.

            > I work in system design where
            > there are separate camps between those who view systems graphically and need
            > to see diagrams and formulas in order to conceive, and those that need to
            > see written words and definitions. There does seem to be a marked
            > difference between how different types of people process information.

            The "work" that the brain does in using alphabetical information may well be
            localized in one or another portion of the brain, and it seems reasonable to me
            that different people will have different preferences for the type of "work"
            they want to do - that is do they like printed instructions or pictograms? I am
            skeptical that any useful conclusions can be drawn from a gender based
            analysis. My daughter graduated numero-uno in mathematics from the U of Ark and
            considering my own less-than-steller accomplishments in mathematics my faith in
            the male math gene has been devastated.

            The links between the origins of language, the evolution of the human brain
            and the development of civilization are not well understood, people like Noam
            Chomsky study and publish theories and research all the time. I don't know
            squat about it except what I can pick up on my own now and then. I should try
            and learn more because the trail of clues to the meaning of spirituality leads
            directly to the old Grey Matter.

            > Lately I've been reading David Fieldler's "Jesus Sun of God" and Blight Bond
            > and Lea's "Gematria". I see how the numbers come together, I follow the
            > geometric associations, but I wonder, "How should I use this information?"
            > Do I need to fluidly process ancient Greek, or is there a gematric routine
            > that makes sense in 21st centur English? If I want to go farther, if I want
            > to do more than read associations and gematric associations and formaulas
            > and do more than nod "aha, aha"..how do I take it? Do I go backwards to
            > Greek or Hebrew, to do I use something like Ulian to try to discover from
            > 21st century English?

            What is Ulian?

            You are asking some good questions, and ones that I also would like to know the
            answers to. I think it depends on what you want to accomplish. Some people, me
            included, like to know about all kinds of arcane information just because we are
            curious and interested in history. I'm actually after bigger game than
            scratching my curious itch, so I too want to know what I'm missing in all this
            alphanumeric soup. The actual meaning of the gematria that Fideler, Michell,
            Bond, Stirling and Lea point to is problematical isn't it? Was this information
            contained in the form of Gematria intended merely to show off the skill of the
            authors, or was there a meaning that was being conveyed to the reader
            deliberately, and if so what is that meaning and how was it supposed to be
            understood? Even more problematical, how do we know where the intentional
            gematria leaves off and the random begins? Or do we deny that anything is
            random by finding a "meaning" to everything? Just what is random anyway?

            It appears to me that the key to understanding the associations that Fideler
            et.al. point out is to have been educated in the tradition of the Greeks of
            Plato's time. The universe was viewed differently then, and to some extent I
            think that to make sense of these things one has to understand the cosomology of
            the times. The associations themselves have little in the way of direct use
            today since we don't see the universe as a series of concentric spheres with
            ourselves at the center on an immobile Earth. But I think that there is a lot
            to be learned from the METHOD of communication that was employed. This way of
            writing and thinking about spiritual and physical themes is not in use in the
            modern world. We could learn a lot from a grounded Theo-Physical system of
            thought.

            Mark
          • Pam Giese
            The Ulian Schemata was developed by D. Jason Cooper and breaks down the modern alphabet into 3 ogdoads to follow Greek and Hebrew (from Pennick s Magical
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 31, 2000
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              The Ulian Schemata was developed by D. Jason Cooper and breaks down the
              modern alphabet into 3 ogdoads to follow Greek and Hebrew (from Pennick's
              "Magical Alphabets"). The breakdown becomes:

              A B C D E F G H I
              1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

              J K L M N O P Q R
              10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90

              S T U V W X Y Z
              100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800

              I was experimenting with this a little while I was on a business trip this
              past week.
              One thing I noticed was that factorial values (whether the value is even or
              odd, whether it's divisible by 7 or 3, etc.) is completely dependent on the
              numbers of letter found in the first set of 9 letters. The same would be
              true for any alphabetical system using this type of breakdown. I was also
              meditating on the fact that 3 out of 5 vowels occur in this first set, while
              only one in each of the other octaves. It seems like there's a link here
              between the extensive use of vowels as sacred words and chanting in
              ceremonial magic and ancient texts....


              Pam
              pgiese@...
              http://www.snd.softfarm.com/pws/pgiese
            • Rolandmont@aol.com
              Hi Pam,
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 31, 2000
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                Hi Pam,

                << I was also
                meditating on the fact that 3 out of 5 vowels occur in this first set, while
                only one in each of the other octaves. It seems like there's a link here
                between the extensive use of vowels as sacred words and chanting in
                ceremonial magic and ancient texts.... >>

                Thanks for sending in these very interesting studies.
                I was hinting at this link between song, number, and magic in my JS Bach
                post. I am trying to figure out the numerology of the German musical
                alphabet, do you know or anyone know what the number correspondences are for
                that system?

                Sincerely,
                Roland Montijo
                Rolandmont@...
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