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[sacredlandscapelist] Re: Pathology or path to God

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  • Dan Washburn
    Jim Bailey wrote: As I understand it, the point was to ensure that the individual did not experience any pleasure in this life so as to raise the possibility
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 23, 2000
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      Jim Bailey wrote:

      As I understand it, the point was to ensure that the individual
      did not
      experience any pleasure in this life so as to raise the possibility of
      getting into Heaven. Pleasure in this life was a certain road to sin and

      therefore constant punishment kept one from experiencing pleasure and
      more likely to avoid sin and therefore more likely to be pure enough to
      enter Heaven later. All quite logical of course...
      If you want to see a very good depiction of this kind of culture
      and
      everyday existence when this was at its most prevalent in Christian
      history (with lots of other good stuff too) rent "The Seventh Seal" by
      Bergman

      Dan: But, Jim, St. Rose spent much time in divine bliss, surely this is
      a form of pleasure. Its a misperception of Christianity to think that
      it is anti-ecstasy. The problem is that these days almost no-one is
      able to see sublime and sacred beauty. There isn't any other source of
      fun except sex, drugs, and rock and roll. The average guy says 'pity
      the poor nun, celibate and sinless.' But the nun may be living in
      transcendent bliss. Pity the poor average guy, bereft of sublime
      beauty.

      The problem is 'poor old talkative Christianity' doesn't deliver the
      goods of mystical union for most people. For those of us who don't want
      to give it the heave ho, the problem is how to wipe the grime off the
      stained glass window and let the holy light shine in again.

      Yes, yes, yes to the Seventh Seal. One of the truly great movies of our
      time.

      david seth melchert wrote:
      >
      >
      > OK, sorry Dan. These are just wandering thoughts, nothing profound to
      add to
      > your musings.
      >
      > Seth Melchert
      >
      Sounded pretty profound to me, Seth, especially those countless
      paradoxes!

      Dan
    • James Bailey
      I m not saying that one can t reach bliss through such practices. I m just saying that they were not engaged in for that spiritual purpose (not overtly
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 23, 2000
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        I'm not saying that one can't reach bliss through such practices.
        I'm just saying that they were not engaged in for that spiritual purpose
        (not overtly anyway). I'm also not saying that Christianity opposes
        pleasure, merely that organized Christianity did at that time. The reasons
        may or may not have anything to do with sincere belief rather than
        political control. But that's an entirely different subject...

        Jim

        On Thu, 24 Feb 2000, Dan Washburn wrote:

        > Jim Bailey wrote:
        >
        > As I understand it, the point was to ensure that the individual
        > did not
        > experience any pleasure in this life so as to raise the possibility of
        > getting into Heaven. Pleasure in this life was a certain road to sin and
        >
        > therefore constant punishment kept one from experiencing pleasure and
        > more likely to avoid sin and therefore more likely to be pure enough to
        > enter Heaven later. All quite logical of course...
        > If you want to see a very good depiction of this kind of culture
        > and
        > everyday existence when this was at its most prevalent in Christian
        > history (with lots of other good stuff too) rent "The Seventh Seal" by
        > Bergman
        >
        > Dan: But, Jim, St. Rose spent much time in divine bliss, surely this is
        > a form of pleasure. Its a misperception of Christianity to think that
        > it is anti-ecstasy. The problem is that these days almost no-one is
        > able to see sublime and sacred beauty. There isn't any other source of
        > fun except sex, drugs, and rock and roll. The average guy says 'pity
        > the poor nun, celibate and sinless.' But the nun may be living in
        > transcendent bliss. Pity the poor average guy, bereft of sublime
        > beauty.
        >
        > The problem is 'poor old talkative Christianity' doesn't deliver the
        > goods of mystical union for most people. For those of us who don't want
        > to give it the heave ho, the problem is how to wipe the grime off the
        > stained glass window and let the holy light shine in again.
        >
        > Yes, yes, yes to the Seventh Seal. One of the truly great movies of our
        > time.
        >
        > david seth melchert wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > OK, sorry Dan. These are just wandering thoughts, nothing profound to
        > add to
        > > your musings.
        > >
        > > Seth Melchert
        > >
        > Sounded pretty profound to me, Seth, especially those countless
        > paradoxes!
        >
        > Dan
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > -- Talk to your group with your own voice!
        > -- http://www.egroups.com/VoiceChatPage?listName=sacredlandscapelist&m=1
        >
        >
      • MrPage@aol.com
        Certainly agree with you, Dan. Page
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 24, 2000
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          Certainly agree with you, Dan.
          Page

          << Dan: But, Jim, St. Rose spent much time in divine bliss, surely this is
          a form of pleasure. Its a misperception of Christianity to think that
          it is anti-ecstasy. The problem is that these days almost no-one is
          able to see sublime and sacred beauty. There isn't any other source of
          fun except sex, drugs, and rock and roll. The average guy says 'pity
          the poor nun, celibate and sinless.' But the nun may be living in
          transcendent bliss. Pity the poor average guy, bereft of sublime
          beauty. >>
        • Pam Giese
          Well said, Page! Some monastic orders also put limits on the amount of time one could spent in self-mortification --not only in recognition of physical injury
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 24, 2000
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            Well said, Page!

            Some monastic orders also put limits on the amount of time one could spent
            in self-mortification --not only in recognition of physical injury to the
            individual, but also in recognition that self-mortification could actually
            become self-indulgent in a perserve, unhealthy way.

            Another aspect of self-mortification goes beyond the "taming" of the flesh,
            but also to strengthen the detachment, the separation of body and spirit.
            It's not unique to Christianity, but also by some of extreme yogic/Hindu
            practioners.


            Pam
            pgiese@...

            -----Original Message-----
            From: MrPage@... <MrPage@...>
            To: sacredlandscapelist@egroups.com <sacredlandscapelist@egroups.com>
            Date: Thursday, February 24, 2000 4:35 AM
            Subject: [sacredlandscapelist] Re: Pathology or path to God


            >Certainly agree with you, Dan.
            >Page
            >
            ><< Dan: But, Jim, St. Rose spent much time in divine bliss, surely this is
            > a form of pleasure. Its a misperception of Christianity to think that
            > it is anti-ecstasy. The problem is that these days almost no-one is
            > able to see sublime and sacred beauty. There isn't any other source of
            > fun except sex, drugs, and rock and roll. The average guy says 'pity
            > the poor nun, celibate and sinless.' But the nun may be living in
            > transcendent bliss. Pity the poor average guy, bereft of sublime
            > beauty. >>
            >
            >------------------------------------------------------------------------
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